New studio build (with neighbours). Need help.

[uffetuff]

Hi!
I've out grown my current studio and have been looking at a new location. It's an old TV-studio where the live room (or what to call it) is levelled about 1m below the control room. The total size of the space I will rent is 122m2. It's places in the corner of the basement of a house that has student apartments above.

ritning.jpg

The grey are the outer concrete wall of the building. The black lines are two leaf gypsum walls on single wood framing. The grey line in the live room is just an idea I have of making an iso room since there are room enough. The first part of this project will be to isolate the live room. I brought my rehearsal PA there today and maxed it out with some music. I din't have a proper SPL-meter so I used an iPhone app. Not the best I know, but the only thing I had right now. it read little above 100dB in the live room, 70dB in the small stair outside the live room and about 60dB in the control room. In the hallway outside the studio it seemed like the most of the sound came from the small storage room next to the toilet. I think this is because of a vent going between the live room and this storage room. I went up one floor to see how much could be heard at the apartments. The SPL-meter was about 40dB but I think that was more from the traffic outside. It could be heard a little bit and it seemed like most sound came from right above that storage room or from the stairs going down to the basement. Another issue i guess is the piping for the radiators (possible to isolate?).

I told the land lord I will have to tare down the walls inside the live room to make new framings and isolated walls and floating floor/ceiling, and he was ok with that.

The room I need to fix is about 7m wide and 8.5m long. Without the inner ceiling that are there now it will be about 4m high. Concrete floor and ceiling. Two outer concrete walls.

Here are some more photos of the space:

liveroom1.jpeg

liveroom2.jpeg

controlroom.jpeg

stairs.JPG

radiatorpiping.JPG

vy2.jpg

So basically what i need help with is to determine if it's possible to isolate enough to play drums and stuff here without disturbing the neighbours. Is this possible? How to do this? I can budget this to about $6000, but rather have it for less of course. I have friends and family for building and electrical stuff. As I wrote earlier I also want an iso-room so any ideas on how to design this? To be clear, this is just for the live room at this point. The control room will be on topic later on.

Here's a SketchUp file of the space.

ulfsplan.skp

If I missed any thing just ask.
Thanks and cheers!
Ulf

[Soundman2020]

Hi Ulf, and welcome!

... have been looking at a new location. It's an old TV-studio where the live room (or what to call it) is levelled about 1m below the control room. The total size of the space I will rent is 122m2.

That's an excellent space for a studio! Nice and large, high ceilings, etc.

The grey are the outer concrete wall of the building. The black lines are two leaf gypsum walls on single wood framing.

Do you know if that framing is attached to the concrete walls, or is it separate?

it read little above 100dB in the live room, 70dB in the small stair outside the live room and about 60dB in the control room.

Not so good for a studio. That's only around 40 dB isolation. Just a bit better than a typical house wall. Do you know how the walls of the control room are built?

In the hallway outside the studio it seemed like the most of the sound came from the small storage room next to the toilet. I think this is because of a vent going between the live room and this storage room.

That0s strange. There should not be any vents in a studio, unless they have proper silencer boxes on them.

Another issue i guess is the piping for the radiators (possible to isolate?).

Probably, but we'd need more details on how that piping is installed to be certain.

I told the land lord I will have to tare down the walls inside the live room to make new framings and isolated walls and floating floor/ceiling, and he was ok with that.

Excellent! Especially the "floating floor". Very likley it was not floating at all anyway.

If you work carefully when you take all that out, you can probably re-use some of the materials for the new build. That can save you money, if you need to do that. Of course, if you have a large budget for this, then that doesn't matter.

Here are some more photos of the space:

In teh live room, it looks like there are vents embedded in the ceiling and also at the tops of some of the walls. Those will need silencer boxes on them, or it might be better to close them off completely, if possible (some of them, or all of them) and install a proper HVAC system designed specifically for your studio. What is up above the ceiling where the vents are? Do you have access to that area, so you can see how they are done and where they go?

There are similar vents and also a duct of some type in the control room, with registers on it. What is that? Can it be removed?

One nice thing about the control room? It already has a surface-mount structured electrical system installed. That's great, but do check where that comes through the wall: it might not be well sealed, and that would be a problem for isolation.

So basically what i need help with is to determine if it's possible to isolate enough to play drums and stuff here without disturbing the neighbours. Is this possible?

Drums can put out 115 dBC or even more when played hard and fast. With only 40 dB of isolation, that would mean that your drums would be audible at around 70 dB outside, which is pretty loud. So you'd need some fairly good additional isolation to get that down to a reasonable level. Is it possible? Yes. But depending on what the "reasonably level" is, it might not be so easy to do it on only US$ 6000. You have about 60m2 of floor area, so you are talking about spending only us$ 100 per square meter. That isn't a lot, especially as you also need to include acoustic treatment in that budget, as well as HVAC modifications.

I have friends and family for building and electrical stuff.

That's great, as it will reduce your labor costs quite a bit, but you do still have the costs of materials and tools, so 6k might not be enough. That's a big room...

To be clear, this is just for the live room at this point. The control room will be on topic later on.

OK, but the isolation between those to rooms needs to be design at the same time, even if you won't be building anything in there yet.

I tried to download your SKP, but for some reason it didn't work: the forum seems to be having some glitches today: I'll look into that, and see what's happening, then try to download again.


- Stuart -

[uffetuff]

Thanks Stuart!

Do you know if that framing is attached to the concrete walls, or is it separate?

I'm not sure about how the framing is at the concrete walls. I guess it's not decoupled. I just have to find out when I tear it down...

Not so good for a studio. That's only around 40 dB isolation. Just a bit better than a typical house wall. Do you know how the walls of the control room are built?

All the gypsum walls are just single framing with double gypsym on each side. Aside from that I forgot to mention that that sound came through the vents and doors.

That0s strange. There should not be any vents in a studio, unless they have proper silencer boxes on them.

It's plenty of vents in this one any ways. Either it's just at half ass build from the start or the vents have been installed later on. I think it used to be some sort of TV-studio so I guess loud sounds was not an issue.

Probably, but we'd need more details on how that piping is installed to be certain.

The land lord didn't have any info about this, but he said he would look in to it. The only thing I can tell that the pipes are coming down from the ceiling at two places, plus through the wall through the control room and further to the extra room.

In teh live room, it looks like there are vents embedded in the ceiling and also at the tops of some of the walls. Those will need silencer boxes on them, or it might be better to close them off completely, if possible (some of them, or all of them) and install a proper HVAC system designed specifically for your studio. What is up above the ceiling where the vents are? Do you have access to that area, so you can see how they are done and where they go?

There are similar vents and also a duct of some type in the control room, with registers on it. What is that? Can it be removed?

One nice thing about the control room? It already has a surface-mount structured electrical system installed. That's great, but do check where that comes through the wall: it might not be well sealed, and that would be a problem for isolation.

I haven't had any look above the ceiling since I didn't have a ladder when I was there. But is it possible to keep some of the vent with just putting silencer on them? I mean is it ok for the vents to travel over the future "floating" ceiling and just put since-boxes at the ends of them? Do I also need to wrap them in some sound absorbing material, or how does that work?
The land lord said he had contact that could helt with the vents if I need to redo it all.

The main breaks for the electricity is at the wall in the control room. From there a lot of cables go trough the wall in to the live room. Looks easy enough to take care of. I've been looking around on how to sound isolate the electricity but I haven't found any info I can understand. Any tips?

Drums can put out 115 dBC or even more when played hard and fast. With only 40 dB of isolation, that would mean that your drums would be audible at around 70 dB outside, which is pretty loud. So you'd need some fairly good additional isolation to get that down to a reasonable level. Is it possible? Yes. But depending on what the "reasonably level" is, it might not be so easy to do it on only US$ 6000. You have about 60m2 of floor area, so you are talking about spending only us$ 100 per square meter. That isn't a lot, especially as you also need to include acoustic treatment in that budget, as well as HVAC modifications.

The sound level on the upper floor where the apartments are the sound was not even 40db. Not sure if that was from the music playing or the traffic from the outside. And I'm pretty confident that if I decouple the live room with floating floor, new isolated walls and take care of the venting issue it will be good enough in the control room. The studio I have now has a double framed wall with double gypsum on each side. No floating floor and really bas doors, but it's good enough to record drums and live bands. And as I said, it seemed like the walls didn't pass much sound at the new place, it was trough the vents and doors that wasn't near air-tight. ( Also no double doors).

The only thing I really can't calculate the cost for is the floor because I'm not sure how to construct that. Is it just joists on neoprene pads and two layers of chipboard? Any better ways to approach this?

OK, but the isolation between those to rooms needs to be design at the same time, even if you won't be building anything in there yet.

I know the isolation need to be designed at once. It was more about layout of the rooms. I want some input on how to divide the live room into one big room and one small iso-room. And perhaps how to angle walls and ceiling? I just meant I will not take care of the inner acoustics and room layout of the control room at this first stage of the studio build. If I decouple the wall structure between the live room and the control room I'm also taking care of the isolation between the live and control room right?

I tried to download your SKP, but for some reason it didn't work: the forum seems to be having some glitches today: I'll look into that, and see what's happening, then try to download again.

That's weird... here's a link to it if it still doesn't work.
http://www.hoborec.com/download/ulfsplan.skp

Thanks again!
Ulf

[uffetuff]

By the way... I've been so in to the thought about floating floor, but is it necessary? The concrete grounding of the building is directly on the ground beneath. If read up on this correctly it could even be worse results if I float the floor?

I also did some sketching on a possible layout of the room. Any thoughts? Any suggestions on how to align the ceiling? My thought is have the ceiling at it's highest point along the wall between the iso-room and the control room window and then it's lowest point in the area outside the iso-room at the opposite side of the control room. For big sound, any where close to the control room window and for a tighter sound in the corner outside the iso-room. Am I approaching this correctly?

ulfsplanstuds.jpg

Here's the skip for it too.

ulfsplan2.skp

[Soundman2020]

I also did some sketching on a possible layout of the room. Any thoughts?

That looks pretty good, actually.

You don't need angle the walls of the Live Room, though. It wastes space, and doesn't have much effect until you get to angles above about 12°. That's about the minimum that is effective at eliminating flutter echo, but there are other ways of dealing with flutter...

It's fine to angle the walls of the iso-booth, because they are steep angles, and that's a small room, but you don't need to angle the side walls of the live room.

Any suggestions on how to align the ceiling? My thought is have the ceiling at it's highest point along the wall between the iso-room and the control room window and then it's lowest point in the area outside the iso-room at the opposite side of the control room.

Why do you want to angle the ceiling? There's no need to do that. It would just waste headroom and overall volume of the room, for no real benefit. It's better to get the ceiling as high as you can, then hang acoustic devices from it to control acoustics.

For big sound, any where close to the control room window and for a tighter sound in the corner outside the iso-room. Am I approaching this correctly?

That can be done with treatment, or gobos, or both. OR even with variable acoustic devices that you adjust as needed for the sound you want in each session.

About floating your floor, you might find this tread useful: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=2&t=8173

But is it possible to keep some of the vent with just putting silencer on them? I mean is it ok for the vents to travel over the future "floating" ceiling and just put since-boxes at the ends of them? Do I also need to wrap them in some sound absorbing material, or how does that work?

Yes, you probably can keep some of the vents, and yes they will need silencer boxes, but it's a bit more complex that that. There's a lot of mathematics and calculations that need to be done to figure out how much air flow you need in there, how fast it has to move, what the sizes of the ducts and silencers have to be, how much heating/cooling capacity you need, etc. Then once you have all that figured out, you need to check it against what those vents can give you, to see home many of them you have to block off, or not block off. HVAC is not as easy as it seems. When I'm designing a studio, I normally end up spending as much time designing the HVAC system as I do designing everything else together! It's very time consuming, and not so easy to get right...

I've been looking around on how to sound isolate the electricity but I haven't found any info I can understand. Any tips?

Can you get some photos of that? The places where the cables go through the wall. There are several things that can be done to isolate that, but it depends on what the situation is.

The only thing I really can't calculate the cost for is the floor because I'm not sure how to construct that. Is it just joists on neoprene pads and two layers of chipboard?

It's a LOT more complicated than that! Read through the thread I linked above, to get an idea of the issues involved. Floated floors are very seldom needed.

Any better ways to approach this?

Yes! Don't do it! Don't float your floor. You have a great floor in there right now, just as is it. Concrete is an excellent floor, acoustically, provided that the rest of the room is treated suitably...

By the way... I've been so in to the thought about floating floor, but is it necessary? The concrete grounding of the building is directly on the ground beneath. If read up on this correctly it could even be worse results if I float the floor?

Correct! Very true: if you don't get it right, then in the best case, you wasted a lot of time and money, and in the worst case, you also trashed your isolation and/or your room acoustics. Or both...



- Stuart -

[uffetuff]

Sooo... If i don't need to float the floors, how do i mount the new interior walls? Do I just place the new studs directly on the existing concrete floor on do i have to put them on some spring system like neoprene pads or something?

Are there any good way to test if the floor is passing structual sounds?

The electrical stuff comes from the main fuze box in the control room throgh the wall and goes around the live room in some sort of rail. All the outlets are connected to their own cable so it seems easy enough to run that inside the wall and place them where I need.

Thanks for the heads up about the angled walls in the live room by the way.

I read up a bit on alternative ways to isolate the floor in "Build it like the pros". I thought that I can just make a construction without any isolation on the floor first and if it turns out to need isolation I can do this solution:
(One version with floating walls, and one without)

floors-and-walls1.jpg

floors-and-walls2.jpg

The floating wall idea is taken directly from Build it like the pros, but it comes with a question mark from my side... if the drywall is connected to the lower stud at the floor, doesn't that bypass the ND isolators?