Rehearsal room

[ken ardency]

I can't login my account, I've tried "I forgot my password" many times but there wasn't any E-mail in my inbox or junk.

I'm designing rehearsing for my friend. He told me that he'd like to have Rehearsal room that looks like Warehouse style and use Bricks wall. He also request a basic low cost control room (just in case he'd like to record. It might need to be renovate later) and a storage space without door just a curtain to cover it. (Which is I don't really agree with this. If this is my project I'd build a ISO booth instead of storage but it's his room)

After couple hours of talking we lay it out something like this

MIP rehearsal plan_1.jpg

There are 2 kinds of wall that I think I'm going to build

wall detail.jpg

Highest interior height is 4.5m and lowest height is 3m

Screen Shot 2557-03-04 at 10.01.02 PM.png

and these are some render pictures how this might looks like

Live room 1.jpg

Live room 2.jpg

Live room 3.jpg

control.jpg

and here are my questions

1. Any recommendation how I should place Instrument and Amplifiers:?

2. We are going to use mini PA system in the rehearsal part where Should we place it? A pair facing to drums set?

3. Do I need Floating floor? This site is only on story. It's located in Bangkok city close to Sky train line and there might be skyscrapers construction soon. I guess I don't need floating floor right?. I've read that floating floor thread but just to make sure that I've got it right.

4. Does it need more absorber in Rehearsal part?

5. Is it OK to built brick wall like this?

6. I'm thinking about placing a stone wall opposite curtain. Is it OK?

7. Is curtain OK to use?

8. Any suggestion?

Sorry if there are any part does not understandable because of my english

Thank you in advance

[Soundman2020]

I can't login my account, I've tried "I forgot my password" many times but there wasn't any E-mail in my inbox or junk.

Ken, I just reset your password for you and e-mailed your registered e-mail address with instructions.

I did notice that it's a hotmail address, and I would suggest that you switch to something else, such as Gmail, because Microsoft recently implemented a whole slew of rather ridiculous policies for their e-mail servers. They now see practically everything as spam, and reject most of it. The system they created for "fixing" an e-mail server that they have identified like that is basically impossible to complete, as it involves a "Catch-22" type situation. So it wouldn't surprise me that Microsoft now thinks the forum is a spammer, since we send so many notifications to users with hotmail addresses every day, and they are all very similar. Go figure! So your "lost password" e-mail was probably dumped by Microsoft without them even bothering to warn you.

I've given up on hotmail personally, and I'm recommending that everyone else I know should do the same, and switch to something with more reasonable policies.

But anyway, if you still can't log in, then PM me and we'll try to sort it out for you.


- Stuart -

[ken_ardency]

Thank you Stuart

Now I can log in thank you so much Stuart

IMG_4138.jpg

The construction of this site is starting soon I've asked my friend to pause construction for a while because There are lot of things that I'm not so sure and not happy with the design

[Soundman2020]

Now I can log in thank you so much Stuart

You are welcome!

1. Any recommendation how I should place Instrument and Amplifiers:?

That's the good thing abotu a live room, if it is designed nicely: You can get different sounds depending on where you place your instruments, equipment, mics and treatment. For example, if you wanted a brighter, harder, livelier sound to the piano, then set it a closer to one of the stone walls and mic it it fairly close too. If you wanted a more distant, reverberant, softer, warmer sound, then you might want to set it further away from the brick, and also put a room mic far away, closer to a diffusive or absorptive surface. With a good live room design, you can move things around to get the exact sound you want. You could also build some gobos on wheels, to give you even more flexibility and perhaps provide some isolation between instruments: Or if you wanted to go further still, you could build variable acoustic devices into the walls, so you can change the room acoustics even more. For example, you could have hinged or sliding reflective panels that open up to reveal absorption or diffusion. Then you can open or close them as needed to get the sound you are looking for.

In other words, there is no "right" or "wrong" position for mics, instruments and amps in a live room. The "correct" position is the one that gets you the sound you are looking for.

2. We are going to use mini PA system in the rehearsal part where Should we place it? A pair facing to drums set?

Your live room cannot be a critical listening room, so just set them up anywhere that gives you good coverage of the room, and leave it like that. If the musicians want to hear how they sound accurately, then the should do that in the control room: The control room acoustics, of course, are set very carefully to be as neutral and as flat as possible, so that all you hear is the direct clean sound form the speakers.

3. Do I need Floating floor?

Probably not, but you should make sure: The floor is a concrete slab on the ground, right? Nothing underneath except Planet earth? Can you hear or feel the vibration of the trains as the go past? Can you hear or feel the sounds / vibrations of the construction sites? If not, then you are OK without a floating floor. How much isolation do you need, in total? (In decibels).

4. Does it need more absorber in Rehearsal part?

Perhaps, and perhaps not. See above... You will probably need more, but make it variable.

5. Is it OK to built brick wall like this?

Yes, but check your local building regulations to make sure: there might be restrictions on how brick walls are built. Be very careful with that....

Another option might be stone, instead of brick. Stone can look really nice, and can give you excellent acoustics as well.

7. Is curtain OK to use?

i would not use a curtain to separate the storage area. That means you would have two very different acoustic resonant chambers attached to each other: the room itself, and the storage area. Two different reverberant systems, interacting.... Might not be a good idea. I would out a proper wall there, with doors on it.

- Stuart -

[Soundman2020]

The construction of this site is starting soon

Waaaay too soon. The design is not at all ready for that. Not even close.

I've asked my friend to pause construction

Yes! Definitely! That's a very good idea...

There are lot of things that I'm not so sure and not happy with the design

Agreed. It can be much better, and there are things that he has not included at all, that are very, very important. For example: HVAC. I don't see any provision for HVAC in there, and that is critical for studios. Electrical is another big issue.

You are totally right: he should stop for a few months until the design can be completed correctly.


- Stuart -

[ken_ardency]

Thank you for your reply

Waaaay too soon. The design is not at all ready for that. Not even close.

Yeah I know. The construction site looks like that the first day I walked in that's mean It's already start before I join the team. I'm working with another 2 persons which are Engineer and Architect/interior.

This is the layout they gave me on the first day

MUSIC ROOM1.jpg

Talking with Engineer and Architect is another issue. They work mostly on living space. Sometime they don't understand and ask question that I know what I have to use but quite hard to explain to them such as

Why do I have to use 2 layers of gypsum?

Can I use another insulation beside Rockwool?

Can we prevent impact from outside by using thin rubber under wooden floor?

and blah blah blah

In my opinion due to the weight of second wall thin rubber sheet wouldn't do anything and Building wall method it's standard like tested and succeed formula.

You are totally right: he should stop for a few months until the design can be completed correctly.

I'm not so sure I can hold it for that long maybe 1-2 month because construction workers will cost him everyday. Now they're working on his showroom/garage for his antique cars and collections (which is located opposite side of this building) I have to get my plan ready before the showroom complete.

but now I'm still working on layout

And this is current layout

MIP layout2 06-03-2014_1.jpg

I took out that curtain as you recommended and change it to ISO booth. I think it's ok to use it as storage too.

From the plan they've given me I think this is the best it could go but I'm not 100% happy with it. I might try corner CR later but I have to discuss with engineer about avoiding those pillars around control room and sound lock.

In case I can't make corner CR Here is the current control room design

MIP CR 06-03-2014.jpg

Positioning the speakers at a 40-degree angle. Is this OK?

Normally I prefer 60-degree but in this case I'd like to place engineer's seat around middle of the side window so he can see Live room as much as possible. Positioning the speakers at a 40-degree angle will get acoustic axis crossed behind his seat

Ray tracing check 30 degree from acoustic axis. Is it enough?

I also checked 45" It's OK as well

Normally I would check 90 degree but I can't get it right. I've tried 60-degree speaker positioning and RFZ around 90 degree CR become too many sided wall and engineer seat way up front only see half of live room.

Back part of the room will be insulation cover with fabric. If I use Steel stud how can I attach fabric to Steel stud? For timber stud just use stapler does it work with metal frame too?

HVAC. I don't see any provision for HVAC in there, and that is critical for studios

Owner said that he's going to use split type in control room but for live room, booth and waiting section should be duct type. Duct plan is giving me headache Avoiding sound leak through ducts, Noise in the duct, balancing air in with air return, Duct size and

I'm not HVAC guy. I Think i'll coordinate with HVAC company later.

Ken

[ken_ardency]

OK let's try

MIP HVAC.jpg

Blue is SUPPLY and Red is RETURN. I think I'm going to use 2' (60cm) round duct.

Any comment?

[Soundman2020]

In case I can't make corner CR Here is the current control room design

That basic layout looks fine to me. No major red flags at first glance. Just a few issues that can be improved:

One things I would change is to make the right wall just plain drywall: slot resonators are tuned devices that absorb energy in the mid range at some frequencies and not others. They also diffuse to a certain extent, absorb bass very well (below the lowest cut-off frequency for the slots) and reflect high frequencies very well (above the highest cut-off frequency): So if you have that on your right wall, and just plain glass on your left wall, then you are upsetting the acoustic symmetry of the room: the right half will sound different from the left half. So as you mix, you will be subconsciously compensating fr that difference with different EQ, dynamics and levels on the left and right: It will sound fine when played in that room, but if you then play that same mix anywhere else, it will sound strange...

So try to keep your left wall and right wall acoustically the same, at least for the front part of the room. So you could have a drywall panel on the right in the same position as the window is on the left, with slots above and below on both sides, or example.

Positioning the speakers at a 40-degree angle. Is this OK?

Yes, that's fine too. 30° is "ideal", but not written in stone: Your sound-stage will be a bit narrower like that, but the sweet spot will be longer, and you'll have better coverage of the rear of the room. However, I would choose speakers that have a fairly narrow dispersion, to try to keep high frequencies off the side walls.

Ray tracing check 30 degree from acoustic axis. Is it enough?

I normally check out to 60°. Even if you get speakers with a narrow dispersion angle, there is still a lot of energy going at at higher angles. I think you'll need to splay your walls a bit more, or at least splay the window (and it's matching panel on the right) at a higher angle.

Back part of the room will be insulation cover with fabric. If I use Steel stud how can I attach fabric to Steel stud? For timber stud just use stapler does it work with metal frame too?

If you use semi-rigid insulation, such as OC-703, then it will stand up all by itself: you just press it into the stud bays, and it stays there.

For your bass traps, do the "Superchunk" type: cut triangles of insulation (OC-703 or similar) and stack them up from floor to ceiling. Then put your cloth over a simple frame in front of that.

Owner said that he's going to use split type in control room but for live room, booth and waiting section should be duct type.

OK, but you still need ducts in the control room to get fresh air in and take out the stale air! A split-system unit is fine for cooling the air, but you still need those ducts...

Duct plan is giving me headache Avoiding sound leak through ducts, Noise in the duct, balancing air in with air return, Duct size and

I understand yo perfectly! It sure is a pain trying to keep all that in order...

One rule you should consider: the speed of the airflow coming out of the registers (vents) should be less than 300 fps, and ideally about 100 fps. All ducts should be lined on the INSIDE with proper "duct liner", and the cross sectional area inside silencer boxes should be at least twice the size of the ducts that connect to it.

Here are some examples of silencer boxes that people here on the forum have built:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 0&start=45
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 9&start=74
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 25&start=2
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 42&start=5
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 61&start=0
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 5&start=98
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=157
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=13821
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 8&start=44
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 2&start=16

- Stuart -

[ken_ardency]

Thanks for advise and Example links

Another layout now it's Corner Control Room.

MIP corner1_1.jpg

compare with the last layout

MIP rehearsal plan 1_1.jpg

I think/hope he'll be OK because In the plan Live room looks like It gets a lot smaller but only few Square meters difference (I use sketchup to calculate area) and he has more resting area (as he requests space for a Pool table )

I place a mirror in the Live room is that OK?

I guess it should be OK because that wall is reflective without mirror anyway. Actually this project aim to be rehearsal space that can record. Owner request a mirror is for performer to see how they look while they're performing. it also help engineer to see whole live room through the mirror from his seat. (It may needs to place at the middle of the wall)

Any Major Red Flag in corner layout?

[ken_ardency]

MY architect told me that this building is not going to slab on ground. It lifts from the earth a little bit. I've done a little survey by asking neighbours. They said Condominium constructions never annoy them and electric sky train doesn't make much impact only a little rail noise can't hear them in their house.

Now I guess I need to float the floor because it lift up from the ground, right?

After show this plan to my friend and he likes it. So I think I'll use this plan

Screen Shot 2557-03-13 at 2.08.39 AM.png

Here is Control room's RFZ TOP & SIDE view

TopRFZ.jpg

sideRFZ.jpg

3D Render

CONTROLROOM with display2.jpg

Is soffit speakers placement OK?

There is space between cloth and super chuck bass trap. Can I put some Acoustic Hangers in there?

Any acoustical problem?

[ken_ardency]

I've been pause designing this project for a while because I just had cervical spine surgery. Doctor tell me to take sick leave from work for 6 weeks and sitting in front of computer is not recommended.

Now I can continue working on this design because my girlfriend just bought me a laptop stand so I can use laptop on my bed.

After discuss with Stuart in another thread it would be easier and better if Sliding Glass Doors are parallel and there is some detail I don't like. So, I redo the plan

Here it is

Screen Shot 2557-04-17 at 1.17.02 AM.png

Screen Shot 2557-04-17 at 3.33.27 AM.png

Acoustic axis crossing about 1 m. behind listening position. Is acoustic axis crossing too far behind listening seat? If it is too far behind I'll make the CR narrower

How about spacing sliding glass doors? Enough? or too much?

Uses cloth over fibreglass over fibreboard between doors right?

I also change ceiling of control room to be flat and use cloud absorber. Just to make it easier to build. Is it good idea?

MIP center Control room.jpg

MIP Control room5.jpg

Please comment Thank you in advance

Ken

[Soundman2020]

I've been pause designing this project for a while because I just had cervical spine surgery.

Wow! That's not good at all! I sincerely hope that you recover fast and fully. And take it easy in the meantime!

So, I redo the plan ... Here it is

That looks pretty good to me. I would suggest turning your clouds 90°, so that they run across the room, not down the room. That gives you better coverage of the first reflection points.

I would also make the speaker soffits wider: they are only a big bigger than the speakers themselves.

Acoustic axis crossing about 1 m. behind listening position. Is acoustic axis crossing too far behind listening seat? If it is too far behind I'll make the CR narrower

That's a bit wide, but still fine if you have good speakers with decent off-axis response. You could also improve that by making just the window narrower, instead of the entire room.

How about spacing sliding glass doors? Enough? or too much?

It's hard to see on the images: What is the distance from glass to glass, across that gap, and how thick is the glass?

Uses cloth over fibreglass over fibreboard between doors right?

Right, but instead of fiberboard you can use semi-rigid fiberglass, such as OC-703, which is better.

I also change ceiling of control room to be flat and use cloud absorber. Just to make it easier to build. Is it good idea?

That's fine, but as I said rotate the clouds 90° to run across the room. Also, make them hard-backed, and angle them down at the front.


- Stuart -

[ken_ardency]

Thank you Stuart for helpful reply and wishing me well. after few months I almost back to normal

I have to re-design whole thing because my engineer can't allow me to remove some pillars in first plan

and this is new layout (again )

Screen Shot 2557-07-15 at 11.55.07 AM.png

and this rough 3D of control room + raytracing

Screen Shot 2557-07-15 at 12.24.35 PM.png

I designed it like this because my friend he'd like to have wide glass

Blue line is acoustic axis I tilted monitor down 7 degrees as you always said about tilting down monitors.

2 Red lines show first reflection within 60 degrees radius

Orange line show first reflection bounced of console if 60 degrees is not enough

I know high frequencies are quite directional but I'm still a little worried about orange line is it OK? Because it's so close to engineer's ears. If laid-back or rest his head, will this reflection effect his listening?

I've been changing monitors and moving console around such as picture below (These monitors are too big I'll change them later if I choose this speakers placement )

Screen Shot 2557-06-19 at 2.10.28 PM.png

this one can reduce reflection from console/desk if I move it further and it's easy to build but my friend thinks front windows is too narrow even I make it wider at the other side

Screen Shot 2557-06-21 at 11.49.55 PM.png

or is it ok to do like this? (REFINERY RECORDING Melbourne - Australia Designed by John Sayers) My friend loves this design. I guess John tilted front glass down quite a lot and absorb above windows. Are there anything I should be aware if I design it like this?

pgalleryControl-Room.jpg

How about Flush them in glass (Diante do Trono Studio in Brazil designed by WSDG)

scalephoto.asp.jpeg

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Ken

[ken_ardency]

I've spent my whole day on raytracing between front window and free standing speakers and Just came up with another idea using mopad like this

ADAM A7 on mopad.png

tilt up to keep monitor down low and facing those glasses up so reflections go above listener's head

Screen Shot 2557-07-15 at 9.09.04 PM.png

Because glass is facing up there could be reflections from light go to our eyes. So, I've also checked ray tracing for lighting as well. all light reflections go below engineer's chest while he's sitting.

is this OK? If not I think I have to tell my friend to forget about wide front window


Thanks

Ken

[Soundman2020]

Ken, you really should take a look at the ITU and EBU specifications for control rooms ("critical listening rooms"). They define everything you need to know for setting up your speaker geometry. The ITU document is: ITU-R BS.1116-1, and the EBU one is "EBU Tech. 3276". Those are pretty much the "Bible" for how to set up and tune a control room. They both specify that the speakers should be set up with the acoustic axis 1.2m above the floor (47-1/4"), which is "standard" ear height for most people when seated. You can raise the speakers above that and angle them down, as you are doing, but with caveats. As you have found out, raising the speakers and tilting them down creates issues with reflections from the console surface, as well as comb-filtering artifacts, which are very hard to avoid, and even harder to treat. That's why I never tilt speakers more than 4 or 5° maximum, even though theoretically you can go to 7° without causing psycho-acoustic issues, and as much as 10° according to some, but in reality the console always gets in the way.

It also looks like you have lowered the console, in an attempt to keep the reflections down below ear height, but you really can't take it down very much at all, as that means that the engineer will not be able to get his knees under it comfortably! It should be set at a height that allows comfortable operation.

One other thing that you might want to consider, is tilting the entire console a bit, so that the surface is angled more. A couple of degrees might be enough.

Also, you seem to have misunderstood what I meant when I said that you should ray-trace out to 50 or 60 degrees: I mean that in the same sense as speaker manufacturers use when talking about on-axis and off-axis response: 60 degrees with respect to the acoustic axis of the speaker. Not a 60 degree total spread. In other words, start from the acoustic axis of the speaker, which should be pointing straight at the engineer's ears (or a little outside them, actually), and from there draw lines at 10° intervals, until you get to 60°, going in all directions. so you will have 6 lines going to the left of the axis, 6 going right, 6 going up, and 6 going down. Follow all of those lines to see what they hit, then "mirror bounce" them back into the room again, to see how close they get to the engineer's head. What you are showing on your diagrams is angles of only 25° and 30°. You need to go twice as big. Most studio monitors still have pretty decent response at 30° off axis, with only a slight drop-off in the highs and mid-highs, so at 30° there's still a lot of energy in the upper end of the spectrum. That's why you should go out to 50° or 60°.

So, I've also checked ray tracing for lighting as well. all light reflections go below engineer's chest while he's sitting.

Are you SURE about that? It doesn't look that way to me... You will likely have lights over the couch at the rear of the room, and it seems to me that there would be plenty of glare from those getting back to the engineer...

Based on your design examples so far, it seems like there is a really, really good budget for this studio, since all of what you are proposing is expensive to build, and is found in only high-end studios. If that's the case, then it might be a good idea to hire a professional studio designer to do this for you, and especially so if this is a multi-channel studio.

If your friend really wants ultra-wide windows, then it is not going to be easy to do that while still having good room acoustics. It can be done (as the photos you posted show), but there are lots of issues involved in doing that right, and it isn't simple.


- Stuart -