Hello,
I am brand new to this forum looks very helpful! My control room is 10 x 12 x 7 in a mobile home. I've taken courses in sound engineering and I have been doing it since I was 18. I am now 29. I do know that this question relates to skill as well as acoustics. But do I have to much acoustical treatment because my mixes sound great in this room, monitors are BX8 D2's but when I play them i.e. in the car or out side the room on a slandered stereo system everything sounds so muddy (yes I know this is a problem everyone has in the recording lifetime) I believe this is really due to my acoustical treatment. I've attached a photo of my control room. I guess what I am really asking for is advice in my setup and acoustical treatment. Thank You all!!
Do I have excessive acoustic treatment?
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MetalGodUsa
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:01 am
- Location: Nevada, USA
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Soundman2020
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Re: Do I have excessive acoustic treatment?
Hi "Metal", and welcome! 
That sounds illogical, but the reason your mixes are not "translating" (the technical term for what is happening to you; mixes that sound fine in the room but lousy elsewhere) is very common: The room sounds bad, has serious modal issues, unbalanced treatment, and is "coloring" the sound that you hear. In other words, you simply are not hearing the truth. What your speakers are pumping out is not getting to your ears cleanly, in pristine, unaltered condition, because the room itself is enhancing some frequencies, muting others, and distorting the overall frequency and time response. You are subconsciously "correcting" for that in the mix, so it sounds good in there, but will obviously sound bad in any other place that does not suffer from the exact same acoustic issues.
So the first thing we need to do is to find out exactly what is wrong with the room, then we can tell you how to fix it.
The best way to do this is to use a program called REW (Room EQ Wizard), which is simply the best acoustic analysis software around, and you don't even have to buy it! It is a free download from Home Theater Shack. There is no cost, except that you have to register as a member over there (also free).
So download that onto your DAW, get yourself a good acoustic measurement mic (EG. Behringer ECM8000, DriveRack DBX RTA-M, Earthworks series M, Nady CM100, etc.), run the calibration procedure, then run the analysis. First on the left speaker alone, then on the right speaker alone, then on both at once. Save the resulting MDAT data file, and upload it to a sharing services, such as Dropbox, then post the link here so we can download it and analyze what the issues are with your room.
REW is a fantastic little tool, really useful, and reveals a wealth of very useful info about the acoustic response of your room. Based on what it tells us, we can suggest ways of correcting the treatment of your room to make it neutral.
But as I said, from the photo and your description, it is clear that you don't have enough treatment in there, and the treatment that you do have is not all in the correct places.
One of the issues is modal response: Room modes (standing waves at certain fixed frequencies associated with room dimensions) can greatly enhance the level of some tones at the mix position, while also attenuating other tones at the mix position. These problems always occur in the low end of the spectrum, below about 300 Hz. It's just the nature of how sound reacts in small rooms. That's why your mixes sound muddy.
Since modes are a time-domain issue, not just a frequency-domain issue, they can carry on "ringing" even after the sound that caused them has stopped. In other words, it is quite possible that when a bass guitar hits a G, that "excites" or "triggers" a mode in your room. And when the bass player kills that note suddenly, it does not stop in your room, but rather carries on for maybe a second or more, as it slowly dies away... Naturally, you try to compensate for that in the mix by reducing the offending frequency, but then when you play the song elsewhere, the bass sounds dull, thin, distant. Yet when the bass player plays (for example) an F, there is no modal response in the room, and it sounds normal to you, so you don't touch it. On the flip side of the coin, it is possible that you are sitting in a null for a different note, for example E, so when the bass then hits an E, it sounds too quiet to you, so you enhance it... so as the bass goes up the scale, E, F, G, first you get a note that sounds low, so you enhance it, then you get one that sounds fine, so you don't touch it, then you get one that sounds loud, so you bring it down. Guess what that sounds like when you take the mix and play it in a different room ... !
In other words, the room is lying to you: you cannot hear the real music, since the room is altering it.
To fix that, you need massive, broad-band "bass trapping" in the room. It sounds strange that you want to "trap" the notes that sound too soft already, along with those that sound to loud, but that's exactly what you need to do. What bass trapping does, is to damp the "ringing" of those modes, ALL of them, so that they affect you much less. So the notes that are causing a null at the mix position (your chair) will sound louder, because you will be damping their resonance at the OTHER end of the standing wave, where it is loudest, which actually brings up the relative level where you are sitting, strangely enough. And the bass trapping also reduces the level of those notes that sounded too loud, because once again, it damps the "ringing", so they don't sound so loud any more.
So that's part of what you will need to do: install massive bass trapping in your room. But don't do it yet! First measure your room response with REW, and post the MDAT file here. If you put the bass trapping in BEFORE you run REW, we won't be able to see what the issues are.
When you have the correct mic and have installed and calibrated REW, then let us know and we'll walk you through the procedure for doing the measuring. It's actually very simple, and only takes a few minutes.
- Stuart -
Actually, from looking at the photos, and from what you describe, I certain that you don't have ENOUGH acoustic treatment!Do I have excessive acoustic treatment?
That sounds illogical, but the reason your mixes are not "translating" (the technical term for what is happening to you; mixes that sound fine in the room but lousy elsewhere) is very common: The room sounds bad, has serious modal issues, unbalanced treatment, and is "coloring" the sound that you hear. In other words, you simply are not hearing the truth. What your speakers are pumping out is not getting to your ears cleanly, in pristine, unaltered condition, because the room itself is enhancing some frequencies, muting others, and distorting the overall frequency and time response. You are subconsciously "correcting" for that in the mix, so it sounds good in there, but will obviously sound bad in any other place that does not suffer from the exact same acoustic issues.
So the first thing we need to do is to find out exactly what is wrong with the room, then we can tell you how to fix it.
The best way to do this is to use a program called REW (Room EQ Wizard), which is simply the best acoustic analysis software around, and you don't even have to buy it! It is a free download from Home Theater Shack. There is no cost, except that you have to register as a member over there (also free).
So download that onto your DAW, get yourself a good acoustic measurement mic (EG. Behringer ECM8000, DriveRack DBX RTA-M, Earthworks series M, Nady CM100, etc.), run the calibration procedure, then run the analysis. First on the left speaker alone, then on the right speaker alone, then on both at once. Save the resulting MDAT data file, and upload it to a sharing services, such as Dropbox, then post the link here so we can download it and analyze what the issues are with your room.
REW is a fantastic little tool, really useful, and reveals a wealth of very useful info about the acoustic response of your room. Based on what it tells us, we can suggest ways of correcting the treatment of your room to make it neutral.
But as I said, from the photo and your description, it is clear that you don't have enough treatment in there, and the treatment that you do have is not all in the correct places.
One of the issues is modal response: Room modes (standing waves at certain fixed frequencies associated with room dimensions) can greatly enhance the level of some tones at the mix position, while also attenuating other tones at the mix position. These problems always occur in the low end of the spectrum, below about 300 Hz. It's just the nature of how sound reacts in small rooms. That's why your mixes sound muddy.
Since modes are a time-domain issue, not just a frequency-domain issue, they can carry on "ringing" even after the sound that caused them has stopped. In other words, it is quite possible that when a bass guitar hits a G, that "excites" or "triggers" a mode in your room. And when the bass player kills that note suddenly, it does not stop in your room, but rather carries on for maybe a second or more, as it slowly dies away... Naturally, you try to compensate for that in the mix by reducing the offending frequency, but then when you play the song elsewhere, the bass sounds dull, thin, distant. Yet when the bass player plays (for example) an F, there is no modal response in the room, and it sounds normal to you, so you don't touch it. On the flip side of the coin, it is possible that you are sitting in a null for a different note, for example E, so when the bass then hits an E, it sounds too quiet to you, so you enhance it... so as the bass goes up the scale, E, F, G, first you get a note that sounds low, so you enhance it, then you get one that sounds fine, so you don't touch it, then you get one that sounds loud, so you bring it down. Guess what that sounds like when you take the mix and play it in a different room ... !
In other words, the room is lying to you: you cannot hear the real music, since the room is altering it.
To fix that, you need massive, broad-band "bass trapping" in the room. It sounds strange that you want to "trap" the notes that sound too soft already, along with those that sound to loud, but that's exactly what you need to do. What bass trapping does, is to damp the "ringing" of those modes, ALL of them, so that they affect you much less. So the notes that are causing a null at the mix position (your chair) will sound louder, because you will be damping their resonance at the OTHER end of the standing wave, where it is loudest, which actually brings up the relative level where you are sitting, strangely enough. And the bass trapping also reduces the level of those notes that sounded too loud, because once again, it damps the "ringing", so they don't sound so loud any more.
So that's part of what you will need to do: install massive bass trapping in your room. But don't do it yet! First measure your room response with REW, and post the MDAT file here. If you put the bass trapping in BEFORE you run REW, we won't be able to see what the issues are.
When you have the correct mic and have installed and calibrated REW, then let us know and we'll walk you through the procedure for doing the measuring. It's actually very simple, and only takes a few minutes.
- Stuart -
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MetalGodUsa
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:01 am
- Location: Nevada, USA
Re: Do I have excessive acoustic treatment?
Phew!! That was much appreciated and a very very productive response, Thank you Stuart! 
- Ryan -
I will download REW tonight and install. Since I am located in a rural place located outside of Las Vegas in Nevada...which always me to run my home studio with no noise restrictions...I will be picking up one of the mentioned mics Thursday when I get into town I will then post the results. Thanks again. I look forward to finding the result and finally winning this long term battle against the freqs!Actually, from looking at the photos, and from what you describe, I certain that you don't have ENOUGH acoustic treatment!
That sounds illogical, but the reason your mixes are not "translating" (the technical term for what is happening to you; mixes that sound fine in the room but lousy elsewhere) is very common: The room sounds bad, has serious modal issues, unbalanced treatment, and is "coloring" the sound that you hear. In other words, you simply are not hearing the truth. What your speakers are pumping out is not getting to your ears cleanly, in pristine, unaltered condition, because the room itself is enhancing some frequencies, muting others, and distorting the overall frequency and time response. You are subconsciously "correcting" for that in the mix, so it sounds good in there, but will obviously sound bad in any other place that does not suffer from the exact same acoustic issues.
So the first thing we need to do is to find out exactly what is wrong with the room, then we can tell you how to fix it.
The best way to do this is to use a program called REW (Room EQ Wizard), which is simply the best acoustic analysis software around, and you don't even have to buy it! It is a free download from Home Theater Shack. There is no cost, except that you have to register as a member over there (also free).
So download that onto your DAW, get yourself a good acoustic measurement mic (EG. Behringer ECM8000, DriveRack DBX RTA-M, Earthworks series M, Nady CM100, etc.), run the calibration procedure, then run the analysis. First on the left speaker alone, then on the right speaker alone, then on both at once. Save the resulting MDAT data file, and upload it to a sharing services, such as Dropbox, then post the link here so we can download it and analyze what the issues are with your room.
REW is a fantastic little tool, really useful, and reveals a wealth of very useful info about the acoustic response of your room. Based on what it tells us, we can suggest ways of correcting the treatment of your room to make it neutral.
But as I said, from the photo and your description, it is clear that you don't have enough treatment in there, and the treatment that you do have is not all in the correct places.
One of the issues is modal response: Room modes (standing waves at certain fixed frequencies associated with room dimensions) can greatly enhance the level of some tones at the mix position, while also attenuating other tones at the mix position. These problems always occur in the low end of the spectrum, below about 300 Hz. It's just the nature of how sound reacts in small rooms. That's why your mixes sound muddy.
Since modes are a time-domain issue, not just a frequency-domain issue, they can carry on "ringing" even after the sound that caused them has stopped. In other words, it is quite possible that when a bass guitar hits a G, that "excites" or "triggers" a mode in your room. And when the bass player kills that note suddenly, it does not stop in your room, but rather carries on for maybe a second or more, as it slowly dies away... Naturally, you try to compensate for that in the mix by reducing the offending frequency, but then when you play the song elsewhere, the bass sounds dull, thin, distant. Yet when the bass player plays (for example) an F, there is no modal response in the room, and it sounds normal to you, so you don't touch it. On the flip side of the coin, it is possible that you are sitting in a null for a different note, for example E, so when the bass then hits an E, it sounds too quiet to you, so you enhance it... so as the bass goes up the scale, E, F, G, first you get a note that sounds low, so you enhance it, then you get one that sounds fine, so you don't touch it, then you get one that sounds loud, so you bring it down. Guess what that sounds like when you take the mix and play it in a different room ... !
In other words, the room is lying to you: you cannot hear the real music, since the room is altering it.
To fix that, you need massive, broad-band "bass trapping" in the room. It sounds strange that you want to "trap" the notes that sound too soft already, along with those that sound to loud, but that's exactly what you need to do. What bass trapping does, is to damp the "ringing" of those modes, ALL of them, so that they affect you much less. So the notes that are causing a null at the mix position (your chair) will sound louder, because you will be damping their resonance at the OTHER end of the standing wave, where it is loudest, which actually brings up the relative level where you are sitting, strangely enough. And the bass trapping also reduces the level of those notes that sounded too loud, because once again, it damps the "ringing", so they don't sound so loud any more.
So that's part of what you will need to do: install massive bass trapping in your room. But don't do it yet! First measure your room response with REW, and post the MDAT file here. If you put the bass trapping in BEFORE you run REW, we won't be able to see what the issues are.
When you have the correct mic and have installed and calibrated REW, then let us know and we'll walk you through the procedure for doing the measuring. It's actually very simple, and only takes a few minutes.
- Stuart -
- Ryan -
-
Soundman2020
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Re: Do I have excessive acoustic treatment?
Hey Ryan,
Great! Add if you can give me the exact dimensions of the room (length, width, height) I can also run some basic predictions on that, and tell you where your problems are most likely to be, in terms of which frequencies will have the modal issues, the predicted resonance time, etc. Also, a couple more photos of the room, particularly of the rear wall, would help to understand it better.
- Stuart -
Great! Add if you can give me the exact dimensions of the room (length, width, height) I can also run some basic predictions on that, and tell you where your problems are most likely to be, in terms of which frequencies will have the modal issues, the predicted resonance time, etc. Also, a couple more photos of the room, particularly of the rear wall, would help to understand it better.
- Stuart -
-
Soundman2020
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Re: Do I have excessive acoustic treatment?
Las Vegas, ehh? I used to go there regularly for trade shows, several years back, but haven't been in a while. But I do recall a small place out on East Sahara that was sort of a pawn shop for cameras and electronic gear in general, and I think I saw some audio stuff in there. I think it was east Sahara? Maybe west? Got my orientation mixed up. But anyway, driving up the Strip from MacCarren towards downtown, you turn right on Sahara and go over several blocks, around the street that big mall is further down (Maryland Av.?). I don't remember the cross street. I'm not being very useful, I guess! I could take you there, but I don't remember the address...a rural place located outside of Las Vegas in Nevada ... I will be picking up one of the mentioned mics Thursday when I get into town I will then post the results.
Oh well. I'm sure you'll find some place that sells audio gear.
If you can't find any of those measurement mics, then any good quality omnidirectional mic with flat response will do.
- Stuart -
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MetalGodUsa
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:01 am
- Location: Nevada, USA
Re: Do I have excessive acoustic treatment?
Actually, from looking at the photos, and from what you describe, I certain that you don't have ENOUGH acoustic treatment! ...
Hello,
I had to order the mics I ended up getting the Nady CM-100 as I went to multiple stores in Vegas and I could not locate a decently priced flat omni mic. But found them online at guitarcenter.com for $49.00 each plus $20.00 off so I picked up two! Seems like a great recording mic as well. I also moved around some panels and bass traps I had out of boredom which I know I should not have done. It seemed to improve a tiny bit translating from room to car. I am not sure if I did everything correctly because my results differ very very much in a way; from the video tutorial on the forum sticky of the REW web site. But I ran REW for the first time and here are the results......https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ei0448kuh969fe/032013.mdat
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MetalGodUsa
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:01 am
- Location: Nevada, USA
Re: Do I have excessive acoustic treatment?
I have done a new measurement after watching a few videos on using the calibration mic I realized I didnt have it pointing forward here i the link! Thank You So much!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldvdob5ffaxagiq/032313.mdat
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ldvdob5ffaxagiq/032313.mdat
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Soundman2020
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Re: Do I have excessive acoustic treatment?
You also need to set your SPL calibration in REW. Right now, it is showing that you did the readings with levels of about 170 dBon using the calibration mic I realized I didnt have it pointing forward
If you really had managed to attain that level, you'd be dead: you'd be a puddle of much on the floor.... So please use the "SPL meter" tool in REW and your hand-held sound level meter, to correctly claibrate REW, then repeat the measurements.
- Stuart -