Helmholtz / Slot Resonator Theory Question

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Soundman2020
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Re: Helmholtz / Slot Resonator Theory Question

Post by Soundman2020 »

Or is it something really specific to slat resonator?
Exactly, as well as other similar devices, such as perforated panels.

If you work through the math, Barefoot actually explains it quite well. Volume is width times height times depth, but the width and height are not relevant (they cancel out), so only the cavity depth is what determines the frequency.

- Stuart -
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Re: Helmholtz / Slot Resonator Theory Question

Post by saint gillis »

Alright I think I got it, the holes ratio is proportional to the box surface, so for a multi perforated plate or a slat plate the volume is no longer part of the formula for each emplacement on the plate; wich is not true of course with a single-hole panel, right?
So a broadband angled panel should work with holes as well as with slats...
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Re: Helmholtz / Slot Resonator Theory Question

Post by saint gillis »

But the formula is considering a right angled box, so depth is directly related to the volume??
So it is not the angle that make it broadband but rater the difference of slat and slot's width... ?
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Re: Helmholtz / Slot Resonator Theory Question

Post by Soundman2020 »

so for a multi perforated plate or a slat plate the volume is no longer part of the formula for each emplacement on the plate; wich is not true of course with a single-hole panel, right?
Right.
So a broadband angled panel should work with holes as well as with slats...
Same principle, yes.
But the formula is considering a right angled box, so depth is directly related to the volume??
There is a relationship, yes, but since the volume scales exactly in proportion to the rest of the dimensions in this case, it is not necessary to consider it when calculating the frequency. For this case, the frequency depends ONLY on the depth, just like John pointed out originally,
So it is not the angle that make it broadband but rater the difference of slat and slot's width... ?
It is both, since angling the slats also changes the depth. With angled slats, the left end, for example, has more depth behind it than the right end, so the frequency will be different. As you move along the slat, the resonant frequency is, theoretically, different at every point, varying from the lowest at one end to the highest at the other. So, as Barefoot said, each slot is broadband, and therefore the "Q" for that slot is broader and flatter than it would have been if the depth were constant. In reality, it is a bit more complex than that, since the air "plug" in the slot doesn't really act as millions of tiny slugs, but rather it reacts "somewhat" like millions of tiny slugs and also "somewhat" as a single unit, which is why the entire wall tends to act as a single unit as well, that is both broadband and very effective. But the basic idea is to consider that the tuned frequency varies along each slot, according to depth ONLY, and that each slot has it's own tuned frequency range (defined by depth and neck dimensions), and when you combine all of those you get a rough idea of how the entire wall will behave.

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Re: Helmholtz / Slot Resonator Theory Question

Post by saint gillis »

Is it possible to go below 100Hz with those kind of absorbers?
I have a big lack of bass between 60Hz and 110Hz in my mix-room, I ve tried to make a broadband panel around 85Hz, but the result is not really satisfying :
Purple=without panel; blue=with panel
Image

I found difficult to make slats around that frequency (hudge slats and tiny tiny slots...) so I made holes, panel = 1m/1m50; 30cm right depth; 10cm left depth; thickness 34mm; holes spaced by 4,6cm; I made several lines of holes from 3mm to 10mm; bigest holes at the center of the panel; I closed the back-panel with a 5mm plywood because it will be against the wall I think the plywood shouldnt vibrate, everything hermeticaly closed, 5cm rockwool spaced a bit from the holes...

Image

I don't really know witch way to go...

(here's the thread where Stuart's helping me http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18002)
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Re: Helmholtz / Slot Resonator Theory Question

Post by John Sayers »

you won't fix the 85hz problem with a resonator. They aren't efficient at those low frequencies.

It is a mode of your 3.91m dimension.

So make some side panels - 2.4 x 1.2 mdf or ply sheet with insulation/cloth cover and angle them on your side walls on the 3.91 dimension.

A room that small needs heaps of treatment - the treatment you have is only touching the fringe of your real need.

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Re: Helmholtz / Slot Resonator Theory Question

Post by saint gillis »

In fact I ve put a lot of absorption on the front wall, I thought curved Helmholtz was a good way to reflect 1st reflections without adding absorption on the side walls while helping a little bit on the low frequency absorption... I think I need wood because you feel good in a room when there is some wood right?
So maybe I could put angled absorbing panel you're talking about on the back-wall?

Thank you all of you guys for your precious help on this wonderful forum!

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18002
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Re: Helmholtz / Slot Resonator Theory Question

Post by saint gillis »

So make some side panels - 2.4 x 1.2 mdf or ply sheet with insulation/cloth cover and angle them on your side walls
Sorry for my bad english John, I m not sure to understand everything... 2.4x1.2 is panel's height and lengh? should the insulation and plywood be thick?
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Re: Helmholtz / Slot Resonator Theory Question

Post by Soundman2020 »

Is it possible to go below 100Hz with those kind of absorbers?
Like John said: That type of device is not efficient at such low frequencies. Helmholtz resonators are far more useful in the mid-range. As you can see from your graph, it appears to be working (there is a small reduction in the mode at 88 Hz, but the effect is nowhere near as big as you need. That's why bass trapping is almost always done with either panel traps or with deep absorption. John is saying the same thing I said on one of your other threads: That room needs a LOT more treatment. It is a small room, and therefore will need a huge amount of low frequency treatment.
In fact I ve put a lot of absorption on the front wall,
Walls are not much use for bass trapping with absorption: Corner are. Walls are good for panel traps (membrane traps, which are pressure-based devices). Corners are good for absorption (which is velocity based). What you need are large bass traps in the room corners.
I thought curved Helmholtz was a good way to reflect 1st reflections
:shock: :?: :!: :shock: Why would you want to put REFLECTION at your first reflection points? That's where you need ABSORPTION! You should be reducing all first order reflections as much as possible, not making tings more reflective. You COULD do that if you angle it steeply enough to ensure that all first order reflections are going way past the listening position, but the small angle you are using for that perforated panel does not look like it is enough for that. Did you ray-trace to figure out the angles?
without adding absorption on the side walls
Why do you not want to put absorption on the side walls? That room is small, and needs lots of absorption anyway. 317 sabins of absorption, to be exact. In other words, roughly 50% of the ENTIRE surface area of the room needs to be perfect absorption: That means half of the floor, half of the ceiling, and half of each wall needs to be perfect absorption: Since it is not practical to put absorption in the floor, that means that your entire ceiling should b absorptive, plus 50% of the area of each wall. That is how much absorption you NEED, according to the equations. It is a small room, so it needs a LOT of absorption, and most of that needs to be aimed at low frequencies.

So forget Helmholtz devices: they are not efficient and too hard to tune at low frequencies. They would take up way too much surface area, considering that half of each wall needs to be absorptive.
I think I need wood because you feel good in a room when there is some wood right?
You don't need wood to "make you feel good". You need wood where it is necessary to give the acoustic behavior that you need. That's why I suggested slot walls.
I found difficult to make slats around that frequency (hudge slats and tiny tiny slots...)
That's not the purpose of slot walls: They are not meant for low frequencies. Rather, they are meant as general broad-band devices, that absorb, reflect and diffuse all at once. They also work as absorbers at low frequencies (well below the tuned range), to a certain extent.
I closed the back-panel with a 5mm plywood because it will be against the wall I think the plywood shouldnt vibrate
5mm is way too thin, and it will vibrate. On a Helmholtz device, the cavity needs to be rigid. That should be 19mm plywood at the back and on the sides.


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Re: Helmholtz / Slot Resonator Theory Question

Post by John Sayers »

Sorry for my bad english John, I m not sure to understand everything... 2.4x1.2 is panel's height and lengh? should the insulation and plywood be thick?
yes - you are trying to divert a wave that you could surf on if it were a water wave. As Stuart said, thin plywood is insufficent.

as i said before - small rooms need lottsa treatment. and the REAR wall is you major wall and you need to angle your side walls.

It's all laid out in the recording manual if only you'd take the time to read it!

check my signature, draw up a chair and read it.

cheers
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Re: Helmholtz / Slot Resonator Theory Question

Post by saint gillis »

Sorry for bringing confusion, in fact I ve of course read all the recording manual, it would be a shame not to do so.
I tried to aply this concept for the first reflections :
http://johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm
:shock: :?: :!: :shock: Why would you want to put REFLECTION at your first reflection points? That's where you need ABSORPTION! You should be reducing all first order reflections as much as possible, not making tings more reflective. You COULD do that if you angle it steeply enough to ensure that all first order reflections are going way past the listening position, but the small angle you are using for that perforated panel does not look like it is enough for that. Did you ray-trace to figure out the angles?
I have a 11° angle... I thought it was enough, in the link above it is a 7° angle.

In fact I have several architectural problems that make difficult to built big corner-traps in some corners (door to close to the corner, airing at wrong place, etc), so I'll try as much as possible to deal with that...

I was planing to put those curved wooden helmholtz on the first half of the side walls (first reflections place...), and absorbtion at front + rear wall... And also to make as much as possible big superchunks at every corners as advised by Stuart... I ve also planed to make a ceiling cloud on the whole ceiling surface (thanx to Stuart's advice!)...
So I can also consider membrane traps on the front and back-wall...

Is it better to do : reflective side walls + absorbing front/rear walls ; or kind of half/half on each wall...?
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Re: Helmholtz / Slot Resonator Theory Question

Post by John Sayers »

definitely absorbing rear wall - you can increase the absorption by leaning the rear wall forward so it's 300mm (1ft) out from the wall at the top.
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