What's the frequency formula for panel absorbers in corners?

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chavernac
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Location: France

What's the frequency formula for panel absorbers in corners?

Post by chavernac »

Hi guys!
I finally decided to build resonant / panel absorbers to deal with this horrible 125h room mode that I have :lol:

I found the frequency formula for a "square" or "flat" resonant panel that goes straight on the wall (metric units). f = 60 / Sqroot (M*D)
However, since the trap has a square shape, frequency does not vary with dimensions and only varies according to mass and depth of air space.
(or, rephrased: volume of air varies proportionally to the area of the membrane so can be ruled out of the equation)

I a looking for the formula that would help me calculate the freq of a panel absorber in corners. (2D and 3D corners)

Or even better, I guess that what I need is the full formula that relates mass and spring so that I can apply it to any shape.

Thanks guys!
G.

(Ps: where should the rockwool go in the cavity? I m guessing, that velocity will be the at its maximum close to the membrane so I would but it as close to the membrane as practically possible without touching it, right?)
Soundman2020
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Re: What's the frequency formula for panel absorbers in corn

Post by Soundman2020 »

It sounds to me like you want to put a panel trap (membrane trap) diagonally across the corner? Is that it? If so, then it won't be sharply tuned to one single frequency, but rather to a range of frequencies set by the average depth of the cavity, roughly. See pages 208 and 210 of MHoA for details. So you get a broadband resonator, with wider, flatter Q. In other words, you will not be able to tune it sharply to 129 Hz.

Also, are you sure you are putting it in a location where there is a pressure peak for that 129 Hz. problem? If so, how did you find that location? A membrane trap that is not located at the pressure peak for that problem, is not going to do anything to solve it.
(Ps: where should the rockwool go in the cavity?
Leave a slight gap between the panel and the absorption, maybe 5 to 10 mm.

- Stuart -
chavernac
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Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:29 pm
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Re: What's the frequency formula for panel absorbers in corn

Post by chavernac »

Thanks for the answer Stuart.
I did find the location by blasting this frequency in my room and walking around... I find always fascinating and fun to do that...
So yes, this mode I want to kill is definitely a "ceiling mode" as I got a bump on the ceiling, my head position and the floor. Big nuls in between! And of course, corners are also pressure points of that frequency.

I ve read the MHoA at least 10 times... And this section about corner trap is... how can I put it: light. In my humble opinion.

I find it hard to believe that because the volume is either a square, a star, a pyramid or a circle, it is going to change anything to the absorption. A volume is a volume. regardless of its shape...
Soundman2020
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Re: What's the frequency formula for panel absorbers in corn

Post by Soundman2020 »

I find it hard to believe that because the volume is either a square, a star, a pyramid or a circle, it is going to change anything to the absorption. A volume is a volume. regardless of its shape...
It's not the volume that matters, but rather the depth of the air gap. That's what defines the resonant frequency. In fact, if you look at the equations that Everest gives, you'll see that volume is not even part of the equation at all!

This is the same principle as for perforated panels, slot walls, and other tuned devices that rely on resonance for their effect.

Think of it this way: This is all about weights bobbing up and down on springs. It is all about simple one-degree-of-freedom resonance: A mass on the end of a spring. It works like this:

1) Air is a spring. That's not obvious or intuitive to us people, since air doesn't seem "springy" to us humans as we go about our daily lives. But to a sound wave traveling at 343 meters per second, air sure is springy. Very springy. It compresses and expands just like any other spring.

2) The sound wave sees the greatest "springiness" in the direction it is traveling, and nothing at all in the direction at 90° to that. If you think about it, this is logical: If you have two springs at right angles to each other against the front wall of your garage, then as your car runs into that wall, it only feels the springiness of the one that is facing you, perpendicular to the wall, not the other one going across sideways, parallel to the wall. That one is not a spring at all, since it is facing in the wrong direction. Only the spring facing you is any use.

3) Instead of a volume of air behind the panel, think of it as an array of dozens of springs running perpendicular to the front panel, directly back to the wall behind. Now, since the panel is angled across the corner, you will have springs of different lengths. Some, near the edges of the panel, will be very short. Others, near the middle of the panel, will be very long. So each section of the panel only "sees" the spring that is directly behind it. That's what sets the resonance for that part of the panel. If the panel were parallel to the wall, all the springs would be the same length, and the entire panel would vibrate at one single frequency, but that is not the case if the panel is angled. With an angled panel, each vertical "slice" of the panel has a different resonant frequency, set only by the surface density of that section, and the depth behind that section. The rest of the volume is irrelevant. This is exactly the same as for slot resonators and perforated panel: Each hole only sees the air "spring" directly behind that slot or hole, not the other "springs" in the rest of the volume.

OK, if you try to analyze that analogy in more detail, it turns out to not be very good, and falls apart mathematically, since the entire panel is rigid, each section is joined to the next, they can't vibrate independently at different frequencies, etc. But the basic idea is there: Each part of the panel only reacts to the air depth behind that part. And the overall effect is that the panel acts as if it were tuned to all of the frequencies, somewhat, instead of being tuned to only one, very well. so the entire panel will react to any of those frequencies, since part of it wants to vibrate at that frequency while the other parts don't. But resonance is a powerful force, so the part that does want to resonate can overcome the "resistance" of the parts that don't, to a certain extent.

Thus, the overall effect is a low Q, broadband resonant that affects a range of frequencies centered around the one defined by the average depth.

- Stuart -
bert Stoltenborg
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Re: What's the frequency formula for panel absorbers in corn

Post by bert Stoltenborg »

:mrgreen:
Any data on this, I don't believe a word you say :mrgreen:
Soundman2020
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Re: What's the frequency formula for panel absorbers in corn

Post by Soundman2020 »

Any data on this, I don't believe a word you say
That's OK: I don't believe much that you say, either! :roll: 8)

You'll find your answer here:

MHoA, PP 205-210.
chavernac
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Location: France

Re: What's the frequency formula for panel absorbers in corn

Post by chavernac »

I totally understand what you are saying.
I also studied physics and am pretty familiar with the spring / Mass equations.

Which leads me to saying that the formula that says f = 60 / sqrt ( M * D )
is a simplified version of the formula that I am looking for.

As you mentioned, it does not take into account the volum and this for a good reason. In the VERY specific case of Square or rectangle panel: the volume (spring) behind the panel surface (mass) vary proportionally. They ve been written off the equation.

If it is not a square... then it is not proportional and this equation falls apart.
That s why I need to get back to the source.

Anybody knows the "full" equation?
bert Stoltenborg
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Re: What's the frequency formula for panel absorbers in corn

Post by bert Stoltenborg »

A membrane on a cavity is comparable to a loudspeaker in a closed box, so you could try to tackle this problem from the speaker-in-box-angle.
Of course you have to consider the fact that a membrane absorber in practice is clamped at the sides, so it is not nearly a free moving plate.

In practice you should tune such a device by measerement/try and error.

For taming modes at a fairly high frequency of 125 Hz I would go for porous absorption.

If you are interested in exotic solutions; in the Trevor/dÁntonio book on diffusors there is an interesting option using loudspeakers as absorbers; you can tune 'm by mdoifying the terminal with resistors and capacitors. :D
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