Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

[Shybird]

One other question...

Since STC ratings only measure sound from 125Hz-4k, is an STC rating of 70 even the same thing as 70 decibels of isolation? And if they are not comparable, which one should I be aiming for?

hope that's not a ridiculous question

[Shybird]

Another question...

Gullfo, does your drawing show drywall on the inside of the bathroom walls? And if so, does that not create a 3 leaf effect with the outer wall of the studio?

[gullfo]

i did not include the bathroom walls but you would put in a 2x 5/8" layer on the inside of that. it's big enough not to be a 3rd leaf issue.

STC 70 is not the same thing as 70db isolation as far as a full-range music studio goes. without a proper floating floor and high mass bunker assembly for rooms, your isolation is going to ultimately be limited by the floor flanking and the weaker outside shell. realistically using 3x 5/8" drywall inside and beefing up the exterior with 3x 5/8" or 2x 3/4" MDF (costly) and assuming you get the isolation ceiling, doors, and HVAC correct, you should expect 70db of isolation above 50hz. below 50hz the levels will be low enough that your neighbors shouldn't hear it significantly or experience vibrations.

you will want to create drum and amp risers to decouple the drums and guitar/bass/keyboard amps from the floor.

[Shybird]

Ok cool so I can add drywall inside the bathroom without creating a three leaf effect. That's great.

What program did you use to draw that gullfo?

[Shybird]

Ok so here's a quick update:

I met with my builder recently and we discussed a few important things...

He told me that pouring concrete to square off the bottom left corner would not be wise because it would be hard to tie it in with the existing concrete and would not be structurally sound. He went on to say that the outer platform would need to be leveled out with concrete anyways, in order to match the quality of the interior concrete.. so we came to the conclusion that we should just saw up the concrete and re-pour for the bottom half of the platform ('Bottom' being from the perspective of the 2D layouts I've been posting...that portion of the concrete is currently not squared off completely (in the bottom left) nor leveled properly with the other half of the block...refer to the first pictures in the thread...the part currently without walls is the uneven concrete I'm referring to here). The benefit to doing this he said would be that the plumbing could be repositioned where ever I'd want within the area of the new concrete. Sooo the bathroom is no longer completely fixed!!!

We also decided that the easiest way to go about construction would be to tear down the 8'4" walls that are there and build a 12' wall around the perimeter of the entire square. This would make it easier to do the ceilings since it would be one flat expanse rather than varying heights. It would also allow more space for the HVAC system (in the attic space above the 12' ceilings). And last but definitely not least, it would make the "room within room" isolation plans much easier because there would be fewer seams to seal which would reduce the possibility for potential errors.

Lastly I wanted to ask what you all thought about constructing a hidden 'cloud' above the control room. So basically the double drywall would be at the 12' height and then beneath that a space for insulation and an angled cloth ceiling. Is this something that could really enhance the acoustics of the control room? I've seen examples on the forum but didn't know if it would be worth the additional cost and effort.

Anyways, I'm not completely finished with my new layouts but I will be posting them tomorrow if all goes well. I'm getting more and more excited about the build!

Thanks again for all the help!!
Trevor

[Shybird]

Here is my newest design for the studio after literally trying every possible "corner control room" layout.

Pros:

-The bathroom and main entrance are not taking up any available sight lines between the control room and live room. Only instruments and musicians need to be in front of that darned expensive glass so I've aimed to make that happen...what can I say other than efficiency efficiency efficiency.

-There is a short path from the main entrance to the control room that does not go through the busy live room.

-There is also a short path from the control room to the bathroom that does not go through the busy live room.

-The main entrance to the control room can be two solid doors instead of two glass doors since there is no need for visibility (money saver).

-The booth has decent ratios and complete visibility into the live room. I could even angle it out into the live room a little more if I wanted a booth that could fit drums. For now I went with as big of a live room as possible. (Any opinions on this?)

-There is space on the wall between the bathroom and control room for a storage closet (mics, cables, stands, etc.)

-All doorways have plenty of space and do not interfere with each other.

-My goals are met for the square footage of each room.


I know it's a rough sketch and needs more detailing, but what do you guys think overall? Is it better than previous designs? Is there anything I'm missing in terms of using the space efficiently?

And for the record, because I can't say it enough, thank you for all the help!

Trevor

[Soundman2020]

I'm liking this design a lot better... but your bathroom is STILL in the air gap between the leaves. I really don't understand why you refuse to fix that.

- Stuart -

[Shybird]

Hey Stuart thanks for the reply..

Here are some questions/thoughts I have:

-After seeing Gullfo's design and asking him about the 3-leaf issue in the bathroom I was under the impression that I could build the bathroom with single stud walls and add drywall on the inside for the finish rather than doing a complete room-within-room design. I figured it would save money since I don't need the isolation in the bathroom. Maybe I just misunderstood his explanation and/or I didn't communicate my question well. Anyways, are you saying the only option is to completely double wall the bathroom? That's what I did in this drawing. Would I still just use one door even with the double wall (seems crazy to have two doors for a bathroom)? And if so which way would be best to have it open (outward or inward)? I guess that's somewhat a matter of preference?

-I've been doing some research on monitor angles in the control room and it seems like a 90º angle at the listening position might help in this layout since it would pull the engineer closer to the ideal 38% (from the front glass) and also allow for a wider window for more sight lines. I read where John posted something about a place he worked at for years that used the 90º setup and he loved it. What are your thoughts on going down that route vs. the more sought after 60º equilateral triangle?

-I've increased the size of the ISO booth since I figure it would be worthwhile to have the versatility of a drum booth if I ever needed it. Plus extra small booths are just kind of annoying to work in. Seem like a good idea?

I'm feeling better about this design so far. It seems to have a good flow to it as well as the best possible ergonomics for what I am wanting out of this studio. Just gotta figure out all the details for the control room and then I can do a more detailed floor plan drawing in sketchup and start building upward from there.

Thanks again!
Trevor

[Soundman2020]

-After seeing Gullfo's design and asking him about the 3-leaf issue in the bathroom I was under the impression that I could build the bathroom with single stud walls and add drywall on the inside for the finish rather than doing a complete room-within-room design.

That's correct: Glenn and I are saying the same thing, but that's not what your floor plan is showing! There's no drywall shown on there,or if there is then it isn't visible. Also, you have to take into account that the drywall you are talking about is technically part of the outer leaf, so it still needs to be decoupled from those studs, which are technically part of the inner leaf. I'd suggest using RC for that, or maybe clips plus hat channel, whichever is cheaper. In other words, the drywall that you see when standing inside the bathroom must connect only to the outer leaf of the building, at both sides, top and bottom, and must not touch the inner leaf (except through the RC).

I figured it would save money since I don't need the isolation in the bathroom.

Correct: the bathroom doesn't need to be isolated, and can be part of the outer leaf, but it should not be part of the "air gap". If you imagine pumping some type of bright pink gas into the air gap at any point, then there must be no way that it could leak into the bathroom: no pink gas. When I look at your "#10" design, I see places where pink gas would pour in.

Would I still just use one door even with the double wall

Yeah, you only really need one door on there: build it along the lines of Rod's "superdoor".

-I've been doing some research on monitor angles in the control room and it seems like a 90º angle at the listening position might help in this layout since it would pull the engineer closer to the ideal 38%

Your room is not a rectangle, and indeed doesn't even have four walls, but rather five, so the 38% "rule" is out the window! That only applies to purely rectangular rooms, so don't sweat it. And even for rectangular rooms, it's still only a guideline for a starting point, not written in stone.

and also allow for a wider window for more sight lines.

That's a really big window, and thick laminated glass that size will be expensive. Yes, it's nice to have fantastic sight lines from the center of the mix position, but there 's something you might be missing here: if you move your head just a foot or so to the left or right, you open up a whole new sight line and field of view, so taking that into account you can shrink your windows while still retaining the same sight lines, saving money on the glass, and improving both your soffits and your geometry.

it seems like a 90º angle at the listening position might help in this layout

90° is a possibility, yes, but it's the extreme limit and I don't think you need to go that far: It stretches out the sound stage, distorts the stereo image, and squashes up the sweet spot, plus with your room shape it messes up the entire concept of soffits, and puts your front window right at the first reflection points for both speakers, to both ears! You would have to use speakers with a very tight dispersion angle to achieve that, and even then you'd still have problems with reflections.

What I would try to do there, is to bring the speakers closer to each other (shrink the window), relax that steep 90° intersect angle until you are no longer getting reflections of your window, and fix the soffit design so that the front panels really are acting as infinite baffles, and completely filling the area between the front wall and the side walls.

What are your thoughts on going down that route vs. the more sought after 60º equilateral triangle?

Both will work fine, if done right. The 90° does give you the much broader sound stage, which is nice as you can place things more accurately, and hear more detail, but that comes at the expense of the sweet spot, which is squished up. As with most things in studio design, it's a compromise.

-I've increased the size of the ISO booth since I figure it would be worthwhile to have the versatility of a drum booth if I ever needed it. Plus extra small booths are just kind of annoying to work in. Seem like a good idea?

Great idea! I was actually going to suggest that, when I saw your #10. It also gives better visibility between the booth and the live room.

I'm feeling better about this design so far

I'm liking it better than the previous ones, too. It's getting better and better!


- Stuart -

[gullfo]

here's the SU file

[gullfo]

on the bathroom, Stuart and I agree as part of the exterior leaf no issue so just run a decoupled set of drywall on the inside of the bathroom. i posted the SU file from the plan so you can adjust as you like.

[Shybird]

Awesome! Thanks Gullfo! Such a sleek sketchup design...I'm working with it right now... hopefully I will have a new and improved sketch of my floor plan up by tomorrow. I'm just trying to get the size of the control room correct so that the there is enough room behind the listening position for a couch and small pathway, while maintaining the largest live room possible.

And Stuart thank you so much for your detailed reply... I have been adapting the design to everything you talked about in your post. It was extremely helpful and cleared up a lot of things that were hazy for me. It's also reassuring to know that I'm headed in a better direction! I only have a few questions:


-Would it be ridiculous to soffit mount my speakers at an angle somewhere between the radical 90º and the more conventional 60º? I haven't been able to find examples of this so I was just curious.

-I read here that the width of the baffle needs to be 5 times the size of the bass driver (so that would be 40" for each of my Event ASP8's). Is that accurate information?

-Also for the bathroom, is it okay if the drywall is only decoupled from the inner walls (the ones between the bathroom and live room)? Or do I have to run the RC around the entire bathroom? (just trying to cut out any unnecessary costs)

-Can the "superdoor" for the bathroom be made to open inwards? Or does it have to open into the live room in order to construct the proper seal between the two rooms? From what I can tell, none of Rods examples show a super door that opens inward...it seems like it would be the same idea, just reversed right?

-What do you think a good target length would be for the glass at the front of the control room? Gullfo's drawing has a length of about 6'1" on the inside and about 6'10" on the outside and it seems like plenty...I know some of it comes down to budget, soffit design, and preference, but I wanted see what you all would define as "too much" as well as "not enough" in relation to the size of this studio. Sorry if this question is not very "answerable". I understand that it will get worked out the more I keep moving forward...just trying to expedite my way to the most efficient design.


And again, thank you for all the help!!

Trevor

[Soundman2020]

-Would it be ridiculous to soffit mount my speakers at an angle somewhere between the radical 90º and the more conventional 60º? I haven't been able to find examples of this so I was just curious.

Personally, I don't see why there would be a problem with mounting the speakers at any angle between 60° and 90°. I don't see it as "60°, or 90°, and nothing else", but rather as a range.

-I read here that the width of the baffle needs to be 5 times the size of the bass driver (so that would be 40" for each of my Event ASP8's). Is that accurate information

Theoretically, for maximum effect, the soffit should be several times the wavelength of the lowest frequency produced by the speaker! Or even more accurately, theoretically it should be "infinitely" large, with respect to the wavelength. The technically correct name for the front panel of the soffit is, after all "infinite baffle". However, in the real world, that simply is not possible. Not even remotely possible. When you think that the wavelength of a 20 Hz tone is 17 meters, a baffle for that would have to be a few hundred meters wide to be considered "infinite"! Unless you plan to use the Grand Canyon as your control room, that's a bit hard to achieve...

So theory is fine, but the reality is that theory is unrealistic!

So, in reality, make the soffit as large as you can afford within reason, given the dimensions of your room.

-Also for the bathroom, is it okay if the drywall is only decoupled from the inner walls (the ones between the bathroom and live room)? Or do I have to run the RC around the entire bathroom? (just trying to cut out any unnecessary costs)

You only need the RC on the walls to the live room. The other walls of the bathroom are already part of the outer leaf, so all you are really trying to do is to make the walls to the live room also be part of the outer leaf. That's what the RC does.

-Can the "superdoor" for the bathroom be made to open inwards? Or does it have to open into the live room in order to construct the proper seal between the two rooms? From what I can tell, none of Rods examples show a super door that opens inward...it seems like it would be the same idea, just reversed right?

I don't think it really matters which way it opens, as long as the seals are good and the closer works well.

-What do you think a good target length would be for the glass at the front of the control room? Gullfo's drawing has a length of about 6'1" on the inside and about 6'10" on the outside

If Glenn drew it that size, then I'm sure he did it for a reason, and figured it out first! Glenn is not the kind of guy who does things for no reason. My guess: It's probably to give you good sight lines into the live room, and also good soffit size.

The glass isn't there for acoustic reasons: all the rooms would sound pretty much the same acoustically even if you replaced all of the glass with drywall. The glass is there so you can see between rooms. So if you wanted to make it bigger, that would help improve sight lines, but at the expense of soffit width, and also at the expense of your pocket. If you wanted to make it smaller to have bigger soffits and/or save money, then you could to that too, but at the expense of losing some visibility. As with many things in studio design, it's a trade-off: what do you need most, and what are you prepared to sacrifice to get it?

- Stuart -

[Shybird]

So I'm finally out of the world of "Sweet Home 3D" and into Sketchup! Here is my first stab at the newest layout. I went with Glenn's proposed control room except for 40" baffles rather than 36", which shortened the glass just a little but I think it's still got great sight lines..

Compared to layout 10.1 this drawing has a slightly smaller live room and booth because of the increased size of the control room...I don't think too much was sacrificed however...I also went along the lines of Glenn's layout by using 4" air gaps between the 2x4 studs of the inner walls and 2" air gaps around the perimeter of the building.

I'll do some more detailed zoom shots soon but I was too excited and wanted to go ahead and post the jpg...it looks so much cooler now! lol

Cheers
Trevor

[Shybird]

Here is a closer shot of the bathroom that shows the 1/2" RC...is this following what you all had in mind for the bathroom isolation plan?

Also I figure I could either make the bathroom a bit smaller or use the extra space to add some cabinets and whatnot...not sure at this point.