Residential Garage Studio & Practice space Build please help

[israelhands]

First off, love the forum. I've got tons of ideas and motivation to finally do this. Thank you everyone.

The purpose of this space will be primarilly for rehersal with occasional recording (lets just say 60/40). So my first consern is soundproofing as this is a garage loccated in a residential neighborhood. I've decided on a one room design with a small vocal booth in one corner.

Ok so I have a two car (detached) garage with stucko exterior.20ft by 23ft. Previous owner took down one overhead door and replaced with a window and 3ft wide door. The other 8ft overhead door is too damaged to leave and construct a wall behind so I'm just gonna take it down and frame out a wall with Masonite exterior and paint it to match the rest of the garage. Also planning on doing the same to the window. The door opens inward so it will be easy to add another door that opens outward with foam padding in between them as I'm worried most my sound will escape out the door.

I currently have taken down the previous wall material and 25+ year old electrical so I have a blank canvas to work with here. My first order of business it to take care of the overhead door and window. After that I need to replace 14 2x6 ceiling joints and "a" frames as many of them are bowed and beginning to crack and splinter. After that I'm going to bring in an electrician to help me with the wiring of a new breaker box. Hopefully I can just pull from the house and not have to run a new line to the pole in the alley. My plan is to have 3 outlets on each long wall and 2 outlets on the short walls. Haven't decided on lighting yet but won't be anything special. Also one outlet and one light (with switch) in the vocal booth.

After that I'll be ready for the walls. Now here is where I'm have trouble. Should I go with Expanding foam insulation or fiberglass roll out insulation or the "blow in" recycled material insulation? Keep in mind my main concern right now is soundproofing. I'll worry and sound "quality" with wall treatments later. My other decision I'm torn between is should I have 2 layers of 5/8 drywall or one layer of quiet rock drywall. A local contractor quoted me a price of $1200 (usd) for ThermoSeal 500 expanding spray foam insulation on the walls and ceiling. Better than another guy that quoted me $2500. Another business quoted me $2500 for a R16 "blow in" insulation and enough quiet rock drywall for the walls and the ceiling. I'm really torn on this and can't decide what's best for my budget (which is kinda embarassing how small it is). So I need to get the best soundproofing I can (for as Cheap as I can).

Any and all help is welcome. I did get a loan for this project so I'm ready to start making moves on this. No one locally can give enough advice so i hope someone can help me soon before this money burns a hole in my pocket and I start buying more guitars.

Sorry for the horrible pics I'll take some better ones tomorrow in sunlight.

[Soundman2020]

Hi "israelhands", and welcome!

So my first consern is soundproofing as this is a garage loccated in a residential neighborhood.

"Soundproofing" is sort of a relative term: There's no such thing as true "soundproofing", since any sufficiently loud sound will penetrate any conceivable barrier: the loudest sound that ever happened on this planet was heard right around the other side, so there's no stopping loud sounds. It is one thing to isolate your room for a single acoustic guitar and no neighbors within miles, and another thing entirely to isolate it for a full heavy-metal rock band where the neighbors have a baby sleeping a few feet away from your room...

Which means that you need to put real numbers to what you mean by "soundproof": in other words, how many decibels of transmission loss (isolation) do you need? You can easily measure that with a sound level meter. You need to answer two questions: A) "How loud are you?". B) "How quiet do you need to be?". Then use the equation: "B" - "A" = "how much isolation you need".

The other 8ft overhead door is too damaged to leave and construct a wall behind so I'm just gonna take it down and frame out a wall with Masonite exterior and paint it to match the rest of the garage.

How is the "rest of the garage" built? Depending on how much isolation you need, that might or might not be enough. Good isolation requires mass. You need to know how much mass you already have there, to figure out if you need more, and to figure out how to build the wall that blocks of the doorway.

The door opens inward so it will be easy to add another door that opens outward with foam padding in between them as I'm worried most my sound will escape out the door.

Weellll, that isn't really the right way to do it: What you have right now is the "outer-leaf" of the 2-leaf isolation system that you need to build. The existing garage shell is your outer leaf, and you'll be adding an inner leaf for each room that you need. Each leaf will have its own door. So if the door you have in your outer leaf opens inwards, then you have a problem. You need to reverse the sense of that door so it opens outwards, and the corresponding door in the inner leaf will open inwards. You cannot leave that door opening inwards, since it will not be able to open, as it will bang into the inner leaf! so since you were already planning to add a door that opens out, then that's fine: do that, and remove the other door. You'll need that other door for the inner leaf, when you get to that point. You cannot have both doors in the same leaf: you would have no isolation like that.

The new door MUST be a solid-core door, and as thick as possible. Don't get the typical cheap hollow-core or foam-core doors: Only solid core. And don't get one that has a hole through it for the handle: that hole is no good, and will destroy your isolation. You need simple surface mounted handles, not ones that penetrate the wood.

Also, "foam padding" between the doors is not the right stuff: most types of foam are closed-cell, which is useless acoustically. You need something that is open cell, such as proper acoustic foam, mineral wool, or fiberglass insulation.

After that I need to replace 14 2x6 ceiling joints and "a" frames as many of them are bowed and beginning to crack and splinter.

It's hard to see in the photos, but to me it looks like that entire roof needs replacing. If you are going to replace the trusses and joists anyway, then you might as well do the whole thing. And if you are doing the whole thing, then you could even think about increasing your roof height a bit... More height is always good, acoustically.

Besides, depending on how much isolation you need, you will probably have to beef up that roof deck anyway, since that will be your outer leaf up there, so it just makes sense to take off the entire roof and rebuild it properly, with more dense materials. Just a thought...

After that I'm going to bring in an electrician to help me with the wiring of a new breaker box.

That should go on your new inner-leaf, which you haven't built yet, so you might want to hold off on calling him until you are ready with that. There's not much he can do until your inner-leaf framing is in place.

Should I go with Expanding foam insulation or fiberglass roll out insulation or the "blow in" recycled material insulation?

Once again, the usual type of expanding foams are closed-cell polyurethane, which is no use acoustically. Your bets bet is something called Owens Corning 703, commonly called "OC-703" or just "703". That is semi-rigid fiberglass panels with excellent acoustic properties. Next best is any type of fiberglass insulation that has a density of around 30 kg/m3, or mineral wool insulation with a density of around 50 kg/m3.

But before you put in the insulation, you must determine how much isolation you need! It might be necessary to "beef up" the existing walls from the inside, in order to get the right amount of mass for your isolation.

I'll worry and sound "quality" with wall treatments later.

It's good that you understand that isolation and treatment are two different things! A lot of people come here without having that concept clear, and it creates a lot of confusion. However, even though these are totally different and diametrically opposite concept, there are still things you can so in the "isolation" stage, to ensure that your "treatment" stage will be easier, and that you'll have a usable room with decent acoustics. For example, if you plan to mix in there, then symmetry and geometry are very important. The ratio of the width, height and length or your inner leaf are also important: You need to choose a ratio that gives you a good, smooth, spread of the modal behavior of the room. Etc.

My other decision I'm torn between is should I have 2 layers of 5/8 drywall or one layer of quiet rock drywall.

Once again, that depends on how much isolation you need. (Are you seeing a trend here: ). Your first order of business should be to get a sound level meter, and do some tests to put numbers on that. Isolating your room to 40 dB of isolation is very, very different from isolating it to 70 dB. And isolating it for vocals at 90 dB is also different from isolating it for a bass amp at 90 dB...

A local contractor quoted me a price of $1200 (usd) for ThermoSeal 500 expanding spray foam insulation on the walls and ceiling. Better than another guy that quoted me $2500. Another business quoted me $2500 for a R16 "blow in" insulation and enough quiet rock drywall for the walls and the ceiling. I'm really torn on this and can't decide what's best for my budget (which is kinda embarassing how small it is). So I need to get the best soundproofing I can (for as Cheap as I can).

The good news is that you can have good isolation, and you can have cheap isolation! The bad news is that you can only choose one of those two...

But having said that, both of the quotes seem a little excessive: Drive down to your local Home depot, and see what they have in ordinary fiberglass and mineral wool. They might even have 703. Or call Owens Corning directly, and ask where you can buy 703 in your area.

Regarding the the "ordinary drywall vs. Quietrock vs. whatever". Think of it this way: sound waves do not care how much you paid for the mass. Sound waves are not snobs, and the can't read price tags anyway, so they just react to the total amount of mass that you put in front of them, regardless of the cost. Thus, buy whatever type of mass turns out to be cheapest, and that does the job. In most places, that is just plain old fire-rated 5/8" drywall. Or maybe you can get a special deal on 5/8" plywood, OSB or MDF. Mass is mass, and what you need is lots of mass, so look for the best price per kilogram. That's all that matters.

Now for the stuff you didn't mention: Seals, and HVAC. Both of the leaves MUST be sealed air-tight: You need to go over the existing outer leaf, inch by inch, and check for anything that might be an air leak, and seal it with acoustic sealant. Every tiny little gap and crack needs to be filled. If it just looks like it might be a crack, then fill it, just to be safe. And even if you are convinced that it is not a crack, well, fill it anyway! Everything has to be sealed. The same applies to the inner leaf: as you build it, seal it air-tight too.

Did I mention that sealing is important, and that everything must be sealed?

And HVAC: You and your band will need to breath inside the room! So you need a ventilation system to bring in fresh air, and to remove the stale air. Since that system has to penetrate your isolation system, it needs to include silencers in the ducts. And since you live in Texas, I reckon you'll need some cooling in there, too! Musicians and equipment put out a lot of heat, especially when playing hard, and they put out a lot of moisture too, so an air conditioner is essential: not just to cool the air but also to control the humidity. You need one.

And finally, you need to actually DESIGN the room, before you start building it! Right now, you don't seem to have an actual plan for the room, and that is critically important. Building a studio is 90% design, and only 10% actual building: There's just so much that goes into it that it is impossible to design "on the fly", while you build. If you try that, I can guarantee that it will be a disaster. I'd suggest that you download "SketchUp" and spend a bit of time learning it, then do your design and post it here, for comment and suggestion.

And in the meantime, maybe put that money in the bank, in something that yields a bit of interest!


- Stuart -

[israelhands]

Thanks Stuart for touching on every topic I mentioned.

First let me just let everyone know my budget is $5000. I know its not that much but I'm hoping that this will get me the "bare minimum" of what I want done. It kills me to say that but I know this wont be my Dream Studio so I'm not gonna "break the Bank" doing this when I probably wont even been in this house longer than 5-10 years so this is just kind of a rough draft studio.

That being said, Stuart let me correct a couple things you talked about. You keep talking about an inner and outer leaf. I assume you are referring to that as a "room within a room" design? I didnt really plan on doing that for this build. I know it would help on sound control but with only $5k I just dont see it happening.

The ceiling repairs I spoke of are only replacing the horizontal 24ft. 2x4's that actually run from wall to wall. And then attaching shorter 2x4's in a "v" shape going up to the roof. The roof itself was re-done in 2007 and really isnt as bad as it looked in that pic. I just need to beef up the "ceiling" before i hang my drywall. As is the weight would be to much.

As far as the actual decibels we are making - that is unknown. But lets just say LOUD. Really LOUD. Two full stacks, 8x10 bass rig, full drum set, and mid size PA for vox and triggered kick drum. We know that we are gonna have to tone it down ie; half stacks and turning down the PA. But Ill still need a significant amount of sound proofing. Yes Stuart for your equation I would need deffinate decibel readings but I haven't found a cheap one yet and I'm trying to "pinch every penny" for this project. So long story short lets just say "really loud"

The garage is externally made of Stucko then a wire mesh with a cement/plaster type substance after that. Then the wooden studs. So when I "replace" the overhead door I was planning on wood studs/particle board/masonite/and then maybe stucko. I also thought about using 2x6's just to frame out that door that way I could put more insulation therefore more mass like you suggested Stuart.

I looked into that OC703 stuff. Its pretty expensive. Might me something I would wanna use for wall treatments after Im done and hear what the room sounds like.

Got a Quote on Quiet Rock and its way out of my range. Gonna do 2 layers of 5/8 dry wall. And should I separate the 2 layers (air channel) or just have them together. Or, is there a cheaper substitute for the Green Glue I could use?

As far as sealent goes I was just gonna use an indoor/outdoor calking.

As far as heating and air goes, everyone keeps telling me that if I use enough insulation, that it would stay a pretty comfortable temp all year round. I thought about a window unit that has heat and cooling but all my sound would escape right out of it. What if I made some kind of insulated box that could go over it (inside and outside) and just dont run it while we practice? I dont know what to do about HVAC but I dont see my budget making it that far.

Yes I did get sketchup and I sucked at it. If anyone (who is good at it) wants to make me one Id greatly appreciate it. I could hand draw a rough draft and scan it and email it to someone who could make me one pretty quick.

Stuart, Like I said I really appreciate all your input and you've given me alot to think about but I dont know if $5k is gonna get it all done. I have to do the ceiling, door, window, electrical, insulation, drywall, HVAC(maybe), lighting, carpet (I'll do hardwood floors later), Paint, wall treatments, and make my vocal booth. Thats gonna spread me pretty thin.

So with all that in mind. What corners can I cut and what do I have to do RIGHT?

[israelhands]

what will be in there

[israelhands]

Also that spray in expanding foam insulation is open celled. I don't know if that would help any better than closed cell but it's deff open

[Charlie B]

Yes I did get sketchup and I sucked at it. If anyone (who is good at it) wants to make me one Id greatly appreciate it. I could hand draw a rough draft and scan it and email it to someone who could make me one pretty quick.

israelhands, I am proficient in sketchup and would be happy to. I will PM you with my email

[Soundman2020]

I'm not gonna "break the Bank" doing this

But breaking the bank is what studio building is all about! I thought it was a rule: If you didn't break the bank, then you didn't build it right!

Seriously, with 5k you can do something pretty good, but I'm betting that as you go along you'll find more and more reasons to think about that bank, and about breaking it... It's tha nature of tha beast: once the studio-build bug bites you, then there is no hope. There is no known antidote, and you are doomed to suffer the "if only" syndrome forever: the only relief to be gained is by throwing more money at it...

You keep talking about an inner and outer leaf. I assume you are referring to that as a "room within a room" design? I didnt really plan on doing that for this build.

If you want soundproofing, then you don't have a lot of choice!

You did say "So my first consern is soundproofing", and you do show a rather nice drum kit and some heavy-duty amps, so I assumed that you'd need decent isolation (soundproofing). And the only way to get that at a reasonable price is with "room-in-a-room" construction.

Let me try to explain: There are two aspects to building a studio. One is isolation (a.k.a. "soundproofing"). The other is treatment. Isolation stops the sound from getting out, and if it can't get out then it must stay in (duh!). If it stays in, then that makes your room sound bad, hence you need treatment, to make it sound good again. Isolation and treatment are two totally different and diametrically opposed things. Isolation requires massive, solid, hard, rigid, reflective surfaces. Treatment requires softy, light, fluffy, flexible absorbent surfaces. Contrary to popular belief it is impossible to isolate a room by simply hanging absorbent materials on the walls: that will TREAT the room, and it will sound better, so you might think that you dis some isolating, but in reality you did nothing at all: outside, things will still be just as loud as ever.

So, if your goal is to isolate a drum kit and some hefty amp cabs enough that the cops don't come knocking on the door, and the neighbors don't want to shoot you on site, and your family doesn't want to change the locks and leave you in the gutter, then you need isolation. If that is your goal, then the ONLY way to get the kind of isolation you need, on your budget, is with "room-in-a-room" construction. Just putting foam in the studs spaces will do next to zilch for isolation.

Think of it this way: the fundamental frequency of the kick drum is around 80 Hz. That means the wavelength is around 14 feet or 170 inches. To fully absorb that with fluffy insulation alone, you'd need to make it about 3 and a half feet thick (a quarter wave for 80 Hz is 42 inches). On each wall, and on the ceiling.

And that's just for the kick drum: I see a bass cab in there, and a 5-string bass guitar goes down to around 35 Hz, easily. That's a wavelength of 32 feet, so you need about 8 feet thickness of insulation to cover the quarter-wave...

And even then, although you'd be covering the complete quarter wave, the attenuation would still not be great.

Clearly, insulation is not the answer. Sound waves follow the laws of physics, and the physics of absorption is not something that will make you jump up and down with joy, if you want to isolate drums.

The only practical way of stopping sound is with mass. But here again, the physics isn't on your side if you just plan to rely on your existing walls. The principle of physics that governs how well that single-leaf of mass isolates, is called "mass law". It says that each time you double the mass of the wall, the isolation goes up by 6 dB. Wonderful!!!! Not.---

6 dB is nothing: That wall that you have right now is probably giving you around 20-something dB of isolation. Your drums are putting out 110 dB, easily, and the full band more like 115 to 120. Your local municipal regulations probably set the legal limit for nuisance noise at maybe 40 dB. So you need to lose a total of around 60 to 70 dB. Call it 65 dB, for argument's sake. If your walls right now are giving you 25 dB of isolation, let's see how you could get there with mass law: Let's assume that you can double the mass of your wall by adding a layer of 5/8" drywall to it. So adding one layer will take you from 25 dB to 31 dB. Add another TWO layers (double again, total of four layers) gets you to 37 dB. Add another FOUR layers (remember, you have to double the mass each time to get the extra 6 dB, so now you are at at total of 8 layers and 43 dB). Add another EIGHT layers (total now 16) gets you to 49 dB.... I think you see where this is going!!!! You are sill a long way from the 65 dB isolation that you need...

Adding mass to your walls is not a realistic solution.

So what IS the solution, if you want good isolation? You can't get it with absorption, and you cant' get it with mass, so what do you do?

You get it with a tuned filter. You build a wall that consists of two "leaves", separated by an air gap. Simple! You now are no longer limited by mass law, but rather by MSM law: MSM means "Mass-Spring-Mass". The "leaves" on each side of the air gap are the two "M's", and the air in between is the spring. This is a tuned system, and a very different set of laws of physics applies to it. It no longer just resits passively, like mass does, but it sort of "fights back" at the sound. If you tune it to a low enough frequency, you can get really good isolation from much less mass (and much less expense!) than either mass law or absorption.

So what you should be planning to do, is to add a new stud frame right next the existing stud frame that you have, just a half inch away from it, then put drywall on that frame, and fill the cavity behind it with insulation. Same for the ceiling: put new joists across the tops of your new inner-leaf walls, and hang drywall from that. Done! Excellent isolation, low cost.

So you can use the laws of physics in your favor with this method. It's not hard to do and it doesn't take a lot of money. It just has to be done right.

But lets just say LOUD. Really LOUD. Two full stacks, 8x10 bass rig, full drum set, and mid size PA for vox and triggered kick drum.

Yup. That drum kit alone is going to put out 115 dB, played hard. You guys are gong to get close to 120. So you NEED isolation, big time, I reckon!

We know that we are gonna have to tone it down ie; half stacks and turning down the PA. But Ill still need a significant amount of sound proofing.

Do the math: Turn them down to half the power, and that decreases the total sound pressure level by about 6 dB.... not very much! You'll have to turn them waaaaaaay down to not get arrested if you don't have good isolation. And there's another minor detail: There's no volume control on the drum kit! You can't turn that down...

I would need deffinate decibel readings but I haven't found a cheap one yet and I'm trying to "pinch every penny" for this project.

They aren't expensive: You can pick up a really nice new one for under a hundred bucks on e-bay, and I've bought pretty good used ones for under 50.

I looked into that OC703 stuff. Its pretty expensive. Might me something I would wanna use for wall treatments after Im done and hear what the room sounds like.

Yeah, it ain't cheap, so if you are on a very tight budget then look for mineral wool with a density of around 50 kg/m3, and fiberglass with a density of around 30 kg/m3, and just buy whatever is the cheapest of those two in your area.

Gonna do 2 layers of 5/8 dry wall. And should I separate the 2 layers (air channel) or just have them together.

Ummmmmmm...... I thought you said you were not going to do room-in-a-room, but that's exactly what you seem to be doing!

2 layers of 5/8" drywall on a new stud frame next to the existing stud frame IS room-in-a-room! That's it, exactly!

Do not separate the two layers: put them right on top of each other, and "stagger" the sheets so the joints don't line up between layers. You will have an air gap between the existing wall and this new wall, and that's all you want. You should NEVER have more than one air gap inside a wall. If you do, then that damages the isolation.

Or, is there a cheaper substitute for the Green Glue I could use?

Nope! Unfortunately not. Or at least, nothing that has been tested and proven to work like GG does. But once again, you said you were on a tight budget, and here you are talking about GG. GG is great, and works very well to improve low frequency isolation, but it isn't cheap. If you can afford it, then use it by all means!

As far as sealent goes I was just gonna use an indoor/outdoor calking.

Green Glue Company also makes a really good acoustic sealant, so if you are going to order Green Glue for between the layers of drywall, then maybe also order a couple of cases of their sealant. It isn't that much more expensive than good quality caulk, and is designed to do the job right.

As far as heating and air goes, everyone keeps telling me that if I use enough insulation, that it would stay a pretty comfortable temp all year round.

I think you are listening to the wrong "everyone" then!!! Think about this: half dozen guys in a small air-tight, double-sealed, double-insulated room, jamming really hard, working up a good sweat, with some big-ass amps, cabs and other equipment going full bore.... we are talking about a lot of heat there! Lots of BTUs coming off you guys and your equipment. Not to mention the humidity you are putting out, and the rather annoying habit that all people have: breathing! We take in oxygen, and put out CO2 (among other things). I'll give you about half an hour in there, before you notice that it just ain't "pretty comfortable" in there any more... It will be pretty warm, pretty muggy, and smelling pretty bad, and that will happen pretty fast... "comfortable" is not the way I'd describe it!

Don't forget that your room will be sealed hermetically, twice over, as part of the isolation. You'll also have a two very thick layers of insulation around you, so no heat is going to leave that room. What's in is going to stay in, and build up fast. That room, in Texas... It's going to smell, shall we say "ripe" in there...

You NEED ventilation. No question about it: You MUST bring in fresh air and exhaust the stale air. that's the very least you need, but even then that doesn't solve the heat problem. Human bodies at rest put out about 400 BTU per hour, and musicians jamming hard could be putting out 1,500 or even 2,000 BTU per hour. Five of you in there makes for 10,0000 BTU per hour. Add another few thousand for your equipment, and you have a LOT of heat! That's like having several electric heaters going in there, all at once.... You NEED to cool the room.

I thought about a window unit that has heat and cooling but all my sound would escape right out of it.

Exactly. Not to mention that window units are NOISY!!!!. Not a good solution.

What if I made some kind of insulated box that could go over it (inside and outside) and just dont run it while we practice?

How long can you hold your breath?

Seriously, your basic idea is right: build a silencer box. But the application is wrong: Don't try to silence the HVAC unit: rather, put the noisy part outside and silence the ducts!

Spend some time searching the forum for things like "HVAC" and "silencer", and you'll see numerous ways of dealing with the problem. The cheapest way is probably to put in a small mini-split system to cool and dehumidify the room, and a couple of simple ducts with fans and silencers to bring in fresh air and exhaust stale air. Not too expensive, but also not cheap! However, it is very necessary.

I dont know if $5k is gonna get it all done. I have to do the ceiling, door, window, electrical, insulation, drywall, HVAC(maybe), lighting, carpet (I'll do hardwood floors later), Paint, wall treatments, and make my vocal booth. Thats gonna spread me pretty thin.

So with all that in mind. What corners can I cut and what do I have to do RIGHT?

You have to do ALL of it right! OK, so there are some ways you can save money. For example, Green Glue is great stuff, but can you afford it? An extra layer of drywall will have about the same effect as the green glue, so do the math and see which is cheaper. Or if you are willing to sacrifice a bit of space, you can make the air gap inside your walls bigger, and not add either GG or drywall! Once again, it's back to the "tuned MSM wall" thing. The equations for tuning the wall depend on two things: Mass and air gap. Increase mass, you get more isolation. But increase air gap and you also get more isolation. The mass costs money, but the air gap is free! So if you can afford to leave a 6 inch gap between the existing walls and the new walls, then you wold not need the GG or the extra drywall: just two layers of drywall with the bigger gap would give you the same total isolation as 3 layers and the smaller gap (or GG and the smaller gap).

Also, skip the carpet! It is lousy for acoustics (does the exact opposite of what you need), and just use the bare concrete floor for now. That's a great surface, acoustically.

And skip the window! A window that isolates is VERY hard to do right, and very expensive (2 panes of thick laminate glass will take a huge chunk out of your budget). If you can live without it, then forget the window!

And make the doors yourself! Don't buy proper acoustic doors: those things are expensive. You can make yours much cheaper, based on plain old solid-core doors that you can pic up at Home Depot. (not foam core, and not hollow core! Must be solid core). Screw and glue a layer of MDF or plywood to each door, put triple seals around the edges, and for a few hundred dollars you'll have an excellent pair of isolation doors.

Also, skip the vocal booth for now: Unless it is life or death, you don't need to make it now. OK, so making it later means modifying what you are about to build now, but you can save money by not building it yet. That's an extra pair of doors, extra HVAC, extra electrical, extra lighting, windows (maybe), ... If you you need to save money, drop that for now and just build a couple of gobos to give you at least some separation. Much cheaper.

Also, room treatment: That came come later. It's very, very hard to add isolation later, but very easy to add treatment later. Sure, the room will sound lousy initially, but at least it will isolate! And it will give you the incentive find more money fast, to do the treatment...

Etc.

There are ways you can save, if you think about it. But there are a couple of areas where yo CANNOT skimp. First, do not skimp on sealing: sealing everything air-tight is critical for isolation. Second, decoupling. You CANNOT isolate the room successfully if you do not build that 2-leaf MSM wall, where nothing touches. You have an outer leaf (what is there already) and an inner leaf (what you still have to build), and they must not touch each other. What you build is a separate structure, that sits on the same floor but has nothing else in common.

There's more, but that should be food for thought, to get you going!


- Stuart -

[simo]

wow Stuart, that IS a great answer. I'm sure israelhands has got a very good plate of food for thought
Thanks from me too, I always read and learn a lot from your posts !
Have you ever thought about publishing a book yourself ? Seriously - your writing is very clear, informative and easy to follow… .there you go…food for YOUR thoughts this time

[Charlie B]

I second that.

[Soundman2020]

Oh wow, ummm... not really sure what to say, guys! Thanks! Kind words, and much appreciated.

I had kind of considered writing something, but I'm not really ready for that yet. But now you got me thinking...

So it sounds like I can count on selling at least two copies, then?

Gotta give this some more thought...

Hmmm......


- Stuart -

[simo]

You're welcome man - as we say where I come from Give to Caesar what is Caesar's
…well, just a quick edit of all your posts on this Forum alone should already cover quite a few pages, right? - but we want moooore !!!
Count on my copy


ciao
Simo

[RJHollins]

Oh wow, ummm... not really sure what to say, guys! Thanks! Kind words, and much appreciated.

I had kind of considered writing something, but I'm not really ready for that yet. But now you got me thinking...

So it sounds like I can count on selling at least two copies, then?

Gotta give this some more thought...

Hmmm......


- Stuart -

Make that at LEAST 3 copies !!!!

But IF it would cut into the time you spend HERE helping/guiding everyone ... then maybe consider a 'ghost' writer ....... or at least ..... Cloning

[israelhands]

Thanks again Stuart for all of your input.

First off I actually got some things done this past weekend. We re-did the "ceiling" with 20ft 2x10's. 14 of them with 2x4 "v" bracing running up to the "rafters" of the inside of the roof.

We also removed the overhead door and framed out a 2x6 wall to cover it. Then on the outside put 1/2inch particle board. Caulked it in really well. Then put 1/2in Masonite with "treated liner". Caulked again and painted.

Pretty happy with the outcome of both. Can't get pics posted from my phone. I'll put them up when I get home.

I've been thinking really hard about the room within a room idea and I AM starting to lean towards it but I have some questions. Stuart you said the only thing the inner and outer leaf need to have in common are the floor. I don't see how structurally sound that could be. Could I at least have the inner leaf of the ceiling be attached to the outer. The room is 20x24. That's alot of drywall going up on the ceiling with no "center" support. Also, my ceiling right now measures in at about 7 1/2 feet. If I have to do 2x4 or larger on the inner leaf ceiling joists, I won't have much of a room left. The walls of a room within a room design I understand. 2x4 frame with optional amount of separation from outer leaf. I get that. But I don't understand the ceiling details.

Also earlier I asked if I should do the drywall together or leave an "air channel". I once saw a YouTube video (can't find it now) of a company promoting a product that simulated a room within room idea. All it was, was a metal railing that you attach to your drywall. This railing had rubber feet "sandwiching" it that you would attach a second sheet of drywall to. Creating an air channel. Basically a room within a room without the wood framing. Anyone familiar with this and would it be benificial to my "situation"?

Stuart you sound like you are completely against my spray in foam insulation idea? That fact that it is open celled doesnt help it's cause? I'm having trouble finding a fiberglass insulation that is dense enough like you reccomended.

So as of now my next step is to cover up the window the same way I did the garage door and then decide on insulation and decide on room within a room or not.

I've seen a couple builds with people using the Mr. Slim mini split units. Are those heating and air or just air conditioning and humidifing? Also where could I get one in the US (Texas)

[israelhands]

Anyone know if there is a way to post pics on the forum with an iPhone. I can't seem to get them to upload correctly.

[Soundman2020]

Stuart you said the only thing the inner and outer leaf need to have in common are the floor. I don't see how structurally sound that could be.

How is a normal house built? The walls rest on the floor, and the roof rests on the walls. How structurally sound is that? There's no difference here. You are using the exact same principle.

Could I at least have the inner leaf of the ceiling be attached to the outer.

What is the existing outer leaf attached to above it, to keep it supported? Answer: Nothing! It supports itself, since the entire framing system for your house is built to do that. The walls and roof support each other. Same here.

If you are concerned about the structural integrity of drywall in sheer, (which is a valid concern for long walls like that), then use plywood as your first layer, instead of drywall. So instead lf two layers of drywall, you'd have one layer of drywall and one of drywall. The plywood adds a lot of structural integrity in sheer, without affecting isolation at all.

The room is 20x24.

Which means the the outer leaf is even bigger, yet manages to support itself without being hung from anything above...

That's alot of drywall going up on the ceiling with no "center" support.

There must be "center support"! That's what the joists do. They have to be sized correctly for the span, the load, the type of wood, and the maximum deflection. There are tables and calculators for figuring out what type of wood you need, but spanning 20 feet is going to need pretty large joists.

If I have to do 2x4 or larger on the inner leaf ceiling joists,

For spanning 20 feet, you'd probably need more like a 2x10 or 2x12, depending on the type of wood.

However, if you are going to do this right with separate stud framing for the inner leaf walls, then you won't be spanning 20 feet: it will only be about 19 feet: there are a couple of types of wood joists that will span 19 feet with 2x8's...

Also, my ceiling right now measures in at about 7 1/2 feet. If I have to do 2x4 or larger on the inner leaf ceiling joists, I won't have much of a room left.

That depends on how you build it! There's a space-saving technique of "interleaving" the new joists in between the existing joists, so the new ones point upwards, between those, not downwards, below them. Also, since you will be building new inner-leaf wall frames a couple of inches in from the existing outer leaf, you'll actually have a bit MORE height, due to the roof slope! The further in you build your walls, the more height you can get, limited only by the cross bracing on the trusses. But check with a structural engineer: you might even be able to move those cross-braces up a bit, gaining even more height...

Could I at least have the inner leaf of the ceiling be attached to the outer.

From those photos, I don't thin your existing structure can take the load! It doesn't look anywhere near strong enough to carry such a huge amount of mass. 2 layers of 5/8 drywall weighs about 24 kg/m2, or about 5 psf. You have about 480 square feet to cover. That's 2,400 pounds of drywall, plus the framing itself, plus the insulation, plus electrical and HVAC (possibly), plus any treatment hung from the ceiling... the total weight up there is going to be around 3,000 pounds: Do you really think you could safely hang a small car from what you see up there right now? ... And that's in addition to the dead load that the existing roof is already putting on the structure.

Put it this way, if that were my place, I certainly would not try to hang a couple of tons from that lot, and have it dangling over my head....

Also earlier I asked if I should do the drywall together or leave an "air channel". I once saw a YouTube video (can't find it now) of a company promoting a product that simulated a room within room idea. All it was, was a metal railing that you attach to your drywall. This railing had rubber feet "sandwiching" it that you would attach a second sheet of drywall to. Creating an air channel. Basically a room within a room without the wood framing. Anyone familiar with this and would it be benificial to my "situation"?

That's called "resilient channel" (often abbreviated "RC" around here), and yes it does work, but only if used correctly. Actually, what you are describing sounds more like isolation clips with hat channel, which is similar and also works, if used correctly.

However, if the YouTube video showed them attaching RC to existing drywall, then putting more drywall on top of that, well, that's a joke! That would not help at all, and in fact would REDUCE the overall isolation for low frequencies (drums, bass, etc.). RC (and also isolation clips) is meant to be used directly across the studs, not over existing drywall. You MUST have a large air gap between the leaves. If you have only a small air gap (less than 4 inches) then the resonant frequency of that combination is going to be way too high, and cause serious degradation in the isolation. The smaller the gap, the worse it gets. Simple physics. If that YouTube video showed drywall-RC-drywall, well then whoever did that has no idea about isolation. Not a clue. It doesn't matter how well the RC was decoupling, because the simple fact of having a thin "air channel" like that would raise the resonant frequency and reduce the isolation severely. I wouldn't believe too much in a lot of the stuff you see on YouTube about isolation. The problem with YouTube is that any idiot with a video camera and an internet connection can appear to be a world-renowned authority on any subject! Very few of them are... And anyone showing isolation walls with thin air gaps, as you described, falls in the category of "idiot with a video camera", for sure.

So using resilient channel, or clips plus hat channel, can work if done right, but will not give you the same amount of isolation as a fully-decoupled separate framing system. And if you are thinking of using that for your ceiling, on the existing truss cross braces, well then you get back to the same problem of hanging a huge amount of weight from that flimsy structure.

Stuart you sound like you are completely against my spray in foam insulation idea?

Do you have the specs on that foam? A link to the manufacturer's technical data, for example? The issue with foam is that you run the risk of it creating a rigid "bridge" between the leaves, which seriously compromises the isolation. There's some research that shows blown-in cellulose insulation can actually perform a bit better than fiberglass for acoustic isolation: The problem is that there's also research showing that it can perform much, much worse, and the only difference between the two cases is how well it spread and settled when blow in to the cavity. If it happens to be done very evenly, then it works well. But if it clumps up in one place and creates a flanking path, then you have a problem. And there's no way of knowing how well it went in, until you test the isolation afterwards, or take the wall apart to see how it settled...

I'm having trouble finding a fiberglass insulation that is dense enough like you recommended.

That really shouldn't be a problem. This isn't high density stuff: we are only taking about 30 kg/m3, which is roughly 2 pcf. That should be available easily. If not, call Owens Corning and ask them where you can buy OC-703 in your area. That stuff will work fine.


- Stuart -