Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

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Soundman2020
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Re: Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

Post by Soundman2020 »

That's the general idea, yes. Here's an idea of how it could look, with several angles in it:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... all+#p1259

And here are some more details on how to do the math, if you feel so inclined! :)

http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/Titles/Acoustics2.htm


I was not planning on doing any serious drywall finishing, just basic taping,
That's fine, but don't mud and tape. Since you will be doing two layers of drywall, use backer rod and caulk in the joints on the first layer, and you can probably do the same on second layer too, since most of it will be hidden by the treatment (either slot walls or absorption panels).


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epilogstudio
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Re: Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

Post by epilogstudio »

oh man I am horrible with math!! haha

I just read that about the formula for calculating the helmholtz resonant frequency....I am assuming that is what you are talking about?

I am not sure where to even start there.

Would I need to do measurement in the room first with room eq wizard ? to know what frequencies need the most taming? and then do the formula for those frequencies?

If it seems pretty safe and effective overall to use johns design I may be more inclined to do that.

I will start on some more detailed drawings and see what you think about the angles and attachment etc....

Or will the angles need to be determined by the math/measuring?
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Re: Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

Post by Soundman2020 »

If it seems pretty safe and effective overall to use johns design I may be more inclined to do that.
Yeah, I'd do that too! John knows what he's doing better than any of us, that's for sure! And his designs are tried and tested. Just go with his dimensions for the slats/slots, and put a slight angle on them.

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Re: Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

Post by epilogstudio »

I had one more question about adding an angle to the walls.

Should this be done with the drywall.....or with the wood slats. I ask because you had mentioned making sure the slats are sealed tight to the drywall....so I am wondering how this angle attachment is done without an air gap.
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Re: Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

Post by Soundman2020 »

Should this be done with the drywall.....or with the wood slats. I ask because you had mentioned making sure the slats are sealed tight to the drywall....so I am wondering how this angle attachment is done without an air gap.
Well, you still need a gap behind the slats! They must be on some type of frame that angles away from the wall a bit, to create the depth behind them. It's the FRAME that has to be sealed to the wall.

A slot wall is basically just a large Helmholtz resonator: A restricted gap over an airtight cavity. In this case, the restricted gap is the slot between the slats. There is a "slug" of air stuck in that gap, that vibrates in and out in sympathy with a certain frequency that is set by the dimensions of the slot and the depth of the cavity behind. One common way of describing how it works is blowing across the top of a Coke bottle, to make the bottle hum. That's the perfect example of a Helmholtz resonator. The "slug" of air trapped in the neck of the bottle vibrates up and down the neck, and the frequency is set by the dimensions of the neck and the depth of the cavity inside the bottle. Put water in the bottle and the note changed, because the depth changed.

But if the cavity is not sealed, then it won't work. If you cut the neck off a Coke bottle and blow over it, it won't hum, since there is no cavity, even though the neck is identical. Same if you just cut a hole in the bottom of the bottle. The cavity has to be sealed. So your slats have to be mounted on the front of some kind of box, or at least on a frame that is sealed to the wall, and is itself sealed all around.

That's what I meant when I said that the slot wall must be sealed to the underlying drywall, if it is just a frame with slats on it. But if it is a complete box that already has a back on it, then of course it is the box that must be sealed, and it doesn't matter if you also seal it to the wall or not.

The reason why you might want to just build a frame with no back on it and seal it to the wall, is money! The back needs to be a thick, heavy, rigid piece of wood, and that costs $, so if you already have a good isolation wall there with two or more layers of 5/8 drywall on it, then you can skip the back on the box, and use the drywall instead.

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epilogstudio
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Re: Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

Post by epilogstudio »

perfect.....now I totally understand it :)

just finished demo'ing the room, going to put in mineral wool today, hang resilient channel and drywall tomorrow... then I will get on some drawings and post some ideas for the finishing (treatment and slot wall)


thanks again!
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Re: Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

Post by epilogstudio »

Ok so trying to pick out some acoustic foam for 2 of the walls and ceiling. I had purchased some of this stuff for an isolation box and I have a decent amount left over....

http://www.foambymail.com/EC2-5-F-CH/2- ... -foam.html

But wondering if I would be better off using something like this for the walls

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessor ... =872249099

and these for ceiling

http://www.foambymail.com/DCT/drop-ceiling-tiles.html


we should be done with drywall today, also one more question about the floor

The floor right now is concrete with a thin foam underlayer, and some cheap wood laminate flooring.
I have much nicer red oak flooring that I only have enough to do a room this size. Would real wood be ok for the floor? I would imagine it would be similar acoustically? Maybe better?

Also if I did use the real wood should I just put it over the laminate with another underlayer? Or do a floating floor?
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Re: Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

Post by Soundman2020 »

I had purchased some of this stuff .... http://www.foambymail.com/
I have rather bad news for you: You wasted some money! There's a reason why proper acoustic foam made by reputable companies such as Auralex and others, costs a lot more than the stuff of totally unknown origin and even less known acoustical properties: it is because the foam made by the reputable companies, actually does work as advertised... :)

Personally, I would never use any acoustic material for which there is no published test results, by an independent acoustic lab. Reputable companies do publish such data. The others don't.

On the other hand, there is also a huge amount of published literature on the acoustic properties of common building materials, with testing done in reputable independent acoustic laboratories all over the world. All of that mountain of research shows that plain old mineral wool and plain old fiberglass, of the type commonly used in building houses, has excellent acoustic properties, and is less expensive than commercially manufactured foams.

So yes, Auralex foam will most likely work as advertised, but so will plain old mineral wool. The question is, how much you want to pay for the materials that you use. The sound waves cannot read price tags, and really don't care how much you paid for it: they only care about the actual acoustic properties of the materials.

:)
Would real wood be ok for the floor? I would imagine it would be similar acoustically? Maybe better?
Real wood would be just fine. Nice aesthetically, and nice acoustically.
Or do a floating floor?
:shock: :!: :!: :!: Before you even THINK about floating your floor, please read both of these, very carefully:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=2&t=8173
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/p ... /ir802.pdf
Also if I did use the real wood should I just put it over the laminate with another underlayer?
Take out the laminate and the underlay, and use whatever method is normally recommended for that wood, that also gives you the firmest attachment to the underlying concrete, with no air gaps.


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epilogstudio
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Re: Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

Post by epilogstudio »

Thanks Stuart,

I actually just bought that foam for a isolation box, so not really that big of a deal, I am selling the isolation box and making a little more money back than the cost to make it.
And the foam that is left is just about 60"x60" square piece. So not too much left over when I went and checked it out.

I have some auralex left over too, but its not as thick. Im going to just go with a bunch of auralex squares in here because I think building more panels for this room will be a bit of a pain and the auralex will look nice.
k sounds good, my buddy is asking me if there was a specific method for using the backing rod with the drywall, do we leave a gap between the drywall sheets for the foam rod etc..

Im going to search here and see if I come up with any photos/details I can show him.

have only been able to get a few hours in each night and lots of running for materials so been going slowly...should be done by weekend though :)
epilogstudio
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Re: Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

Post by epilogstudio »

so from what ive read, I just leave a gap (slightly smaller than the rod) , push the rod in between, then caulk, then do the next layer of drywall and rod/caulk like you mentioned earlier?
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Re: Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

Post by Soundman2020 »

so from what ive read, I just leave a gap (slightly smaller than the rod) , push the rod in between, then caulk, then do the next layer of drywall and rod/caulk like you mentioned earlier?
Yup! And make sure you "stagger" the joints between layers, so that the joints on the second layer do not line up with the joints on the first layers. Just one extra precaution...

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epilogstudio
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Re: Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

Post by epilogstudio »

Ok so first issue I have run into.

My ceilings are actually 8'-4"

I had originally planned on dropping the ceiling 4" but then decided to leave it and just cover with tiles. But we have 4x8 sheets of drywall.
So I either have to leave 4 inches at the top and drop the ceiling 4" or I have to stop the drywall at the concrete base that is shown and then apply baseboard of some sort.

I am wanting to do the baseboard. and was thinking I could tapcon some of the channel to the concrete, and pad out from there with 2x 5/8" plywood or something. Leave a gap between the base and the drywall for more backing rod and seal with caulk again.

Will this be ok? I gain more height this way obviously, but I want to make sure I have the best possibly integrity....
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Re: Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

Post by epilogstudio »

Ok I have finished hanging drywall and sealing all the joints with backing rod and silicon caulk.

So now I am ready to start building the slot wall and then absorbers.

I decided to go with the auralex sonoflat tiles for the ceiling, and build my own floor to ceiling absorbers.

I have just measured the new shell of the room and will get it drawn up in sketchup soon, but I am having trouble finding some details for the slot wall....

I saw that there should be 2 types of slot walls in here tuned to different frequencies, one for lows one for mids and highs...I see them in that picture that you linked me to, but I cannot find the details for johns design (slat widths and gaps) for the other wall. I can only see the one that I posted.

Sorry if I am totally overlooking this, Ive been searching for a quite awhile this morning but have not had much luck :(
epilogstudio
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Re: Question regarding Mineral Wool and Broadband Absorber

Post by epilogstudio »

some preliminary sketches......sorry no details/notes, just trying to get a layout of which walls get which treatment and idea of angles for slot wall :)

The greenish textured panels are the absorbers, they are 4" deep and set 2" off the existing wall. I am still working out the attachment, but I am thinking of screwing some 1x guides on the floor and ceiling. 1 set 2" off existing wall, the other would go in front of the panels once positioned, acting as a sort of track/guide.

The panel at the niche/closet would be hinged to a fixed post that I could position at the corner where the 2 absorbers meet, so it can act as a door to the closet space (store mics, stands,etc...)

Also the 2" absorber positioned at the entry door would act as a poor mans double door system :) <- good idea or nay ?

Should I put plywood backing on the 4" panels for more mass, or would be bad for the absorbtion?
Right now I have the panels drawn at 97 inches to accomodate the existing size of the 703 and also this leaves me 2" at top that I can run ceiling tiles to the walls.

I have the slot wall running floor to ceiling so I can seal at all sides/top and bottom.

Im also thinking of doing all of this at concrete floor state, then running my wood floor into the wall system and panel guides. The main reason for this is that I am short about 15sq ft of flooring, and maybe I can swing it this way. Let me know if this is a bad idea? I can get some more flooring if need be..... I am thinking i should at least do the slot wall at rough state for proper attachment.

Any opinions,suggestions on the angles of the slot wall?
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