Hi Forum users, this is our first posting and hopefully we have done enough research not to make too many embarassing mistakes.
Myself and 2 fellow audio engineering students have finally squeezed enough funds together to pitch in and hopefully build a good basic project studio. We have already bought the 32 input analogue console, Digi002 with Protools LE, a 24 track HDR, 3 racks of signal processing, a midi rig, a selection of well respected European Dynamic and Condensor mics, good power amps and reference monitors, and all the necessary snakes and interconnects needed for what we hope to eventually become a good basic studio we we can work and (hopefully!) learn to be better engineers.
We have been carefully reading hundreds of posts on this and other siotes in order to get a basic understanding of studio design and construction, and could use more than a little bit of help getting our plans, and our studio, off the ground.
We have looked at many local commercial spaces which we can afford, and soon will decide which of these rental units is acoustically best suited for a studio and will require the least amount of additional insulation/isolation/construction to avoid noticable sound transmission into neighboring units below or adjacent to us.
We have pretty much decided that we want a top floor corner unit of about 925 square feet with ceilings of about 12 feet or more. Most of the spaces we have looked at meet these requirements and most have cement floors (although a few are hardwood floored) and it appears most have simple single framed sheetrock walls with basic pink fiberglass insulation as well as sprinkler systems as per local building codes.
Since we are all students, and our budgets are tight, we hope to do much of the construction work ourselves, and split the work into 3 seperate phases seperated by 2 or 3 months each (with the studio being totally usable between each phase), thus allowing for funds to be ready on time for the necessary expenditures needed to complete each phase.
As money is a real issue (we will have just $9,500 USD available for construction and building materials this year!), we were wondering if perhaps we should start by beginning our construction by floating the left corner drum booth, as that way we can practice our novice construction techniques on a small area and at the same time we can reduce the main cause of high spl, and then once we have some basic experience we wish to then float the control room floors/walls (11' ceilings with a 14.08' interior width and a 16.94' interior length as per "golden ratios"). We will position the control room to look directly straight into the tracking room, as opposed to other designs where the tracking room is off to one side.
We wish to apologize in advance if some of these topics have been covered in past postings, or if we make an obvious error in design, or perhaps ask a stupid question or two, but this is all rather new to us, and we are more than a bit confused about some basic and more advanced points.
We have several questions that hopefully some of you much more experienced studio designers could help to answer.
1) Any suggestions on how to improve our basic design? This is our first time ever tryng to design a studio, and we are also using Smart Draw for the first time, so we certainly must have made some mistakes. Any advice is welcome!!! Also, should we build this studio from the beginning using only staggered dual frame stud walls with insulated air spaces (Such as the STC 54 walls shown on the sae STC website) for the entire control room? What is the most cost effective insulation for these walls??
2) FLOATING...Is our assumption that using 2"x6" floor joists resting on 4" squares of 1/2" 60 duro neoprene above the concrete, along with 3" Roxul "Sound and Safe" fire-resistant rockwool between the joists, and 5/8" plywood with a rubber mat and topped off by laminate wood flooring an acceptable way to float the floors in the drum booth and control room??? Is there a better (yet still affordable) way to go???
3) ADDING ADDITIONS LATER... Is there a logical way that we can design the floated control room floors to connect to the existing ceiling for now, yet be able to easily accommodate a floating sloped (perhaps RC) ceiling at a later phase of the construction to keep our initial costs down in the beginning??? Can be use a simple rectangular control room design with single framed insulated interiors wall (somewhat larger than the final interior dimensions) to begin with, and at a later time when money is available, add additional interior splayed walls to increase both the STC and better the acoustical qualities??? Any advice as to diffusers and bass traps which are relatively simple to build???
4) HVAC....We hope to add simple acoutically treated ducts with entrances and exits into the drum booth, control room and tracking room. This is perhaps the most complex issue for us to digest, and reading the posts on this subject has lead us to complete confusion about what is the minimum necessary requirements air exchange and cooling. Is it within the range of possibility to use 3 seperate 9,500 BTU residential (in wall) units (we can buy these used for $150 each!) and somehow attach ducts to them, or is that just not going to work well???
THANKS...
Ron, Jon & Simon
Future Audio Engineers
Montreal
Students need help on project studio design.
Moderators: Aaronw, kendale, John Sayers
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VintageAudio
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:18 am
- Location: Montreal
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lowdbrent
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:32 pm
I wouldn't do a triangular iso. I wouldn't do parrallel walls either. But then again, it may be easier to tame than a splayed room.
As far as floating goes. Kinetics has a system that has tested out at STC64. It is a single metal stud wall with R19 insulation, with a double layer of 5/8" sheet rock on the outside, and an isolation clip with furring channel on the inside, with a double layer of sheet rock.
You may also use Quiet Solutions Quiet Rock, which is a multi-layered sheetrock, vinyl, polymer, etc board.
As far as the floors go, you can use the Kinetics RIM system. This is a big roll of insulation type material, with neoprene-type isolators imbedded in it. You roll this out, put a vapor barrier over it, then lay yourtongue and groove decking, a layer of sheet rock, then another layer of T-G decking, then the flooring. It is easier than using Auralex U-Boats, and cheaper than other "puck" systems. If you can't cut the concrete, float both IMO.
As far as floating goes. Kinetics has a system that has tested out at STC64. It is a single metal stud wall with R19 insulation, with a double layer of 5/8" sheet rock on the outside, and an isolation clip with furring channel on the inside, with a double layer of sheet rock.
You may also use Quiet Solutions Quiet Rock, which is a multi-layered sheetrock, vinyl, polymer, etc board.
As far as the floors go, you can use the Kinetics RIM system. This is a big roll of insulation type material, with neoprene-type isolators imbedded in it. You roll this out, put a vapor barrier over it, then lay yourtongue and groove decking, a layer of sheet rock, then another layer of T-G decking, then the flooring. It is easier than using Auralex U-Boats, and cheaper than other "puck" systems. If you can't cut the concrete, float both IMO.
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VintageAudio
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:18 am
- Location: Montreal
Thanks Lowdbrent.
I just read your reply and I thank you very much for your input.
I will try and redesign the ISO to be less of a triangular shape!
Cutting the concrete slab will most likely no be allowed by the building's owner, and we just don't have the funds to float all the space, so I think we are forced to stick to floating the drum booth and the control room.
I suspect the Kinetics RIM or the Auralex U-boats may be way over our budget, so I guess we may have to cut 1/2" 60 dur neoprene 4" pucks ourselves out of larger sheets (seemingly for something like 35 cents each puck).
Once again thanks...
Ron/Jon/Simon
I will try and redesign the ISO to be less of a triangular shape!
Cutting the concrete slab will most likely no be allowed by the building's owner, and we just don't have the funds to float all the space, so I think we are forced to stick to floating the drum booth and the control room.
I suspect the Kinetics RIM or the Auralex U-boats may be way over our budget, so I guess we may have to cut 1/2" 60 dur neoprene 4" pucks ourselves out of larger sheets (seemingly for something like 35 cents each puck).
Once again thanks...
Ron/Jon/Simon
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Jai
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:14 am
- Location: Dallas, Texas
- Contact:
New Studio
Ron, Jon, and Simon,
Welcome. First there are no stupid questions. We all, even the pros here, have screwed up more than any of us want to admit. It's how we are now able to build a solid studio. So ask until YOU understand. even if you have to ask several times. We have been there!!!
A big, big tip I can pass along is this....
DO NOT BUY INTO THE HYPE OF ANY COMPANY SELLING STUDIO ISOLATION IN A BOX!!!!!
Every product you can buy as an all in one solution, you can do cheaper and most likely better using home depot and this forum. Your example of the auralex U-Boat verses raw neoprene is a great study alone. UBoats are about $3 per boat, $3 of neoprene gives you 9 boats.
my 2 cents on your questions...
1. take a look at johns other designs, sae, and online at great studios you like. get a basic design you like, then draw up a version of how you need it to work for you. then post us a revised copy to look over. there are a lot of us that like to give ideas to plans, but few who have time to design all for you. And yes, to save money now, you can build layers in steps with no prob. wont have the look or total isolation the end product will have but will work. However, with your budget of $9500.00 you should be able in material to buy all things to finish job with exception to the pretty things. like fabric to cover 703, trim wood, etc. Thats no big deal. you can add as you go and have money. The real expense is in labor.
2. I have not used a rubber mat on top of my plywood before. I just finished a floor that was on nepprene pads (Cut myself) 2x4 joists, filled with 703, 1/2" plywood, 3/4" toung and groove plywood, wood floor that works fantastic. So, ask around here about the mat. maybe its something I missed.
3. Like I said above, you can build one leaf at a time. But I think you have the funds to build all leafs but not the trim work or finish out of the final leaf.
4. yes, you can use the inwall units. Somewhere here, do a search, there are some great designs to build the inlets and outlets. And i think there are a few posts from people after they built them with some adjustments. Just do the search.
Get your design up before hammering a thing. get to the final design before you buy a thing. After you get a design you like, you should be able to go through it and determine your budget and what can and can not wait to build. Good luck I look forward to seeing the designs.
jai
www.themixstudio.com
Welcome. First there are no stupid questions. We all, even the pros here, have screwed up more than any of us want to admit. It's how we are now able to build a solid studio. So ask until YOU understand. even if you have to ask several times. We have been there!!!
A big, big tip I can pass along is this....
DO NOT BUY INTO THE HYPE OF ANY COMPANY SELLING STUDIO ISOLATION IN A BOX!!!!!
Every product you can buy as an all in one solution, you can do cheaper and most likely better using home depot and this forum. Your example of the auralex U-Boat verses raw neoprene is a great study alone. UBoats are about $3 per boat, $3 of neoprene gives you 9 boats.
my 2 cents on your questions...
1. take a look at johns other designs, sae, and online at great studios you like. get a basic design you like, then draw up a version of how you need it to work for you. then post us a revised copy to look over. there are a lot of us that like to give ideas to plans, but few who have time to design all for you. And yes, to save money now, you can build layers in steps with no prob. wont have the look or total isolation the end product will have but will work. However, with your budget of $9500.00 you should be able in material to buy all things to finish job with exception to the pretty things. like fabric to cover 703, trim wood, etc. Thats no big deal. you can add as you go and have money. The real expense is in labor.
2. I have not used a rubber mat on top of my plywood before. I just finished a floor that was on nepprene pads (Cut myself) 2x4 joists, filled with 703, 1/2" plywood, 3/4" toung and groove plywood, wood floor that works fantastic. So, ask around here about the mat. maybe its something I missed.
3. Like I said above, you can build one leaf at a time. But I think you have the funds to build all leafs but not the trim work or finish out of the final leaf.
4. yes, you can use the inwall units. Somewhere here, do a search, there are some great designs to build the inlets and outlets. And i think there are a few posts from people after they built them with some adjustments. Just do the search.
Get your design up before hammering a thing. get to the final design before you buy a thing. After you get a design you like, you should be able to go through it and determine your budget and what can and can not wait to build. Good luck I look forward to seeing the designs.
jai
www.themixstudio.com
"Love the Music in Yourself,
Not Yourself in the Music."
Not Yourself in the Music."
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VintageAudio
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:18 am
- Location: Montreal
Thanks Jai, great advice!!!
Thank you for your insight Jai,
You're advice and encouragement is more than enough in itself to persuade us to make a small donation to the forum later this week!
We have read your answers carefully, and we will do more research into floor floating, wall floating, correct splayed wall angles, and affordable HVAC issues this week.
We also have scheduled many phone calls and visits this week to Home Depot and a few contractor supply and discount building material outlets to find the best current price and availability here in this part of Canada for such materials we may wish to untilize such as 703, 705, Roxul, 1/2" neoprene, sheetrock, Sonopan, acoustic sealant, Sonex, acoustic door sealers, lumber, rc, and more. Hopefully by nexy week I will have amuch better idea of these materials' costs.
Although your suggestion about trying to build all this at once using our $9500 USD budget is a good one, unfortunately we will not have the funds available all at once, and as such we need to split the work up into a few phases as I mentioned previously.
We have redesigned the basic floor plan to avoid our original idea of a triangular drum iso booth (the first of presumably many revisions before the design is acceptable to more knowledgable studio builders such as yourself).
We have looked at the space limitations, and other studio floorplans from forum members, and we feel perhaps that our basic design still may be the best we can do with our available funds and our square footage (BUT WE ARE STILL OPEN TO ANY HELPFUL SUGGESTIONS AND COMMENTS!!!).
I suppose we will soon post some specific questions about the selection and difference between similiar building materials of various specs on the Studio Costruction Forum, and also we will need more detailed info soon on the construction methods that we must use to properly isolate the floating walls and floors (Although covered to death in previous postings, we are still unclear about many issues, especially since we are not architects and have never had previous building experience of any kind.
IN THE EVENT THAT ANY ELSE OUT THERE WITH REAL WORD EXPERIENCE IN STUDIO DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION HAS ADDITIONAL SUGGESTIONS, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CHIME IN ON THIS THREAD...
Once again thanks a million....
Ron, Jon, Simon
future Audio Engineers
Montreal
You're advice and encouragement is more than enough in itself to persuade us to make a small donation to the forum later this week!
We have read your answers carefully, and we will do more research into floor floating, wall floating, correct splayed wall angles, and affordable HVAC issues this week.
We also have scheduled many phone calls and visits this week to Home Depot and a few contractor supply and discount building material outlets to find the best current price and availability here in this part of Canada for such materials we may wish to untilize such as 703, 705, Roxul, 1/2" neoprene, sheetrock, Sonopan, acoustic sealant, Sonex, acoustic door sealers, lumber, rc, and more. Hopefully by nexy week I will have amuch better idea of these materials' costs.
Although your suggestion about trying to build all this at once using our $9500 USD budget is a good one, unfortunately we will not have the funds available all at once, and as such we need to split the work up into a few phases as I mentioned previously.
We have redesigned the basic floor plan to avoid our original idea of a triangular drum iso booth (the first of presumably many revisions before the design is acceptable to more knowledgable studio builders such as yourself).
We have looked at the space limitations, and other studio floorplans from forum members, and we feel perhaps that our basic design still may be the best we can do with our available funds and our square footage (BUT WE ARE STILL OPEN TO ANY HELPFUL SUGGESTIONS AND COMMENTS!!!).
I suppose we will soon post some specific questions about the selection and difference between similiar building materials of various specs on the Studio Costruction Forum, and also we will need more detailed info soon on the construction methods that we must use to properly isolate the floating walls and floors (Although covered to death in previous postings, we are still unclear about many issues, especially since we are not architects and have never had previous building experience of any kind.
IN THE EVENT THAT ANY ELSE OUT THERE WITH REAL WORD EXPERIENCE IN STUDIO DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION HAS ADDITIONAL SUGGESTIONS, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO CHIME IN ON THIS THREAD...
Once again thanks a million....
Ron, Jon, Simon
future Audio Engineers
Montreal
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AVare
- Confused, but not senile yet
- Posts: 2336
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 1:56 pm
- Location: Hanilton, Ontario, Canada
I will be posting suggestions as I think of them. However there is one thing that you can Right now to help us. Look at how your graphics show up on the forum. The first forces the text to go so wide that even at 1280 resolution I have to scroll. The graphic is 90% blank. Again your second one is mostly blank. Please edit and resize them.
Question on design. I see no allocation for absorbers, sound reflection and echo prevention.
Good luck!
Question on design. I see no allocation for absorbers, sound reflection and echo prevention.
Good luck!
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Aaronw
- Moderator
- Posts: 1771
- Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2003 3:06 am
- Location: Music City
- Contact:
Hello Ron,
I received your email, and just noticed you have a thread going. I sent you a long winded email, probably a couple pages worth.
Anyway, if you could, please resize the first drawing you have posted. Just resize and update the picture. You can click the edit button on the right side of that reply to edit.
I'm using a 19" screen at 1024 resolution, and I'm having to scroll back and forth trying to read. It would help greatly.
Thanks.
Aaron
I received your email, and just noticed you have a thread going. I sent you a long winded email, probably a couple pages worth.
Anyway, if you could, please resize the first drawing you have posted. Just resize and update the picture. You can click the edit button on the right side of that reply to edit.
I'm using a 19" screen at 1024 resolution, and I'm having to scroll back and forth trying to read. It would help greatly.
Thanks.
Aaron
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VintageAudio
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:18 am
- Location: Montreal
Thanks for all your replies, plus the resized floorplan...
Thanks Aaron and AVare,
Here is a resized floorplan as per your requests. Sorry about the odd sizing, but this free version of SmartDraw has restrictions on cutting and pasting, but I tried Windows Paint this time and hopefully it's better...If not, please bear with us as we try another method.
Fist off, I wish to thank AaronW for his superb advice and detailed hints and suggestions. Just to clarify, this is not a basement space with limited headroom, but rather approx. 920 sq ft. commercial space on the top floor corner of an old factory, and has 12' high ceilings (thus our calculation of approx. 11' final ceiling height after dropping it!), so floating floors is not a major headroom problem. Also we will design primarilly for STEREO monitoring using correct speaker positions/angles (via stands) during phase 1, with the possibility of repositing the monitors' stands for correct same distance/proper angles for any 5.1 work we hope to eventually encounter.
AVare has asked us why there is no sign of any bass traps, diffusers, and other special treatments on this floorplan. Our simple answer is that we certainly intend to use a variety of homemade treatments, but we are still just beginning to research affordable designs for home-made resonaters, slatt diffusers, corner bass traps, acoustic foam wedges, ceilng panels and other possibilities. Please remember that we have 3 seperate funding dates which are 120 days apart, thus our $9500 USD budget for building and materials will be divided into what we hope are 3 seperate construction phases, each 4 months apart.
Additionally the controlroom wall as shown in the draft floorplan design is hopefully going to be complemented by an additional series of splayed interior walls to be added during the 2nd or 3rd phase of construction to be added some months after the basic rectanular controlroom construction is complete and the studio has been opened. It is for this reason that we have just realized that there exists a major flaw with our proposed design, in that we must enlarge the current dimensions for the controlroom walls and floor by several inches in each dimension in order to build and properly fit in this second series of interior splayed walls (and soffits) and still be within the exact "Golden Ratio" of 1:1.28:1.54. I WILL POST A FURTHER UPDATED FLOORPLAN WITH CORRECTED CONTROL ROOM WALL DIMENSIONS ONCE JON HAS DONE THE COMPLEX MATH FOR THE SPLAYED WALL ANGLES AND THE APPRORIATE AIRSPACE BETWEEN BOTH SETS OF WALLS, IN A DAY OR TWO!
Another reason they do not appear in the basic floorplan is that from what we have been lead to understand (Although this may may an inncorrect assumption???) , the addition of most of these treatments do not actually affect the calculation of interior construction dimensions, and as such were not yet taken into consideration in this preliminary stage of design.
As usual, any suggestions would be appreciated, and we certainly are lacking real firsthand knowledge about all of this (especially difficult for us to really get a grasp on and nothing about the floorplan is written in stone, it's just our take on an interpolation of various designs seen on John's sight as well as ideas from existing local studios we have visited recently to "borrow" design ideas from.
Thanks yet agian to all for some outstanding advice and knowledge, both of which we could certainly do with plenty of on this major task!
(Ron), Jon & Simon
3 novice studio designers with more dreams than cash!
Here is a resized floorplan as per your requests. Sorry about the odd sizing, but this free version of SmartDraw has restrictions on cutting and pasting, but I tried Windows Paint this time and hopefully it's better...If not, please bear with us as we try another method.
Fist off, I wish to thank AaronW for his superb advice and detailed hints and suggestions. Just to clarify, this is not a basement space with limited headroom, but rather approx. 920 sq ft. commercial space on the top floor corner of an old factory, and has 12' high ceilings (thus our calculation of approx. 11' final ceiling height after dropping it!), so floating floors is not a major headroom problem. Also we will design primarilly for STEREO monitoring using correct speaker positions/angles (via stands) during phase 1, with the possibility of repositing the monitors' stands for correct same distance/proper angles for any 5.1 work we hope to eventually encounter.
AVare has asked us why there is no sign of any bass traps, diffusers, and other special treatments on this floorplan. Our simple answer is that we certainly intend to use a variety of homemade treatments, but we are still just beginning to research affordable designs for home-made resonaters, slatt diffusers, corner bass traps, acoustic foam wedges, ceilng panels and other possibilities. Please remember that we have 3 seperate funding dates which are 120 days apart, thus our $9500 USD budget for building and materials will be divided into what we hope are 3 seperate construction phases, each 4 months apart.
Additionally the controlroom wall as shown in the draft floorplan design is hopefully going to be complemented by an additional series of splayed interior walls to be added during the 2nd or 3rd phase of construction to be added some months after the basic rectanular controlroom construction is complete and the studio has been opened. It is for this reason that we have just realized that there exists a major flaw with our proposed design, in that we must enlarge the current dimensions for the controlroom walls and floor by several inches in each dimension in order to build and properly fit in this second series of interior splayed walls (and soffits) and still be within the exact "Golden Ratio" of 1:1.28:1.54. I WILL POST A FURTHER UPDATED FLOORPLAN WITH CORRECTED CONTROL ROOM WALL DIMENSIONS ONCE JON HAS DONE THE COMPLEX MATH FOR THE SPLAYED WALL ANGLES AND THE APPRORIATE AIRSPACE BETWEEN BOTH SETS OF WALLS, IN A DAY OR TWO!
Another reason they do not appear in the basic floorplan is that from what we have been lead to understand (Although this may may an inncorrect assumption???) , the addition of most of these treatments do not actually affect the calculation of interior construction dimensions, and as such were not yet taken into consideration in this preliminary stage of design.
As usual, any suggestions would be appreciated, and we certainly are lacking real firsthand knowledge about all of this (especially difficult for us to really get a grasp on and nothing about the floorplan is written in stone, it's just our take on an interpolation of various designs seen on John's sight as well as ideas from existing local studios we have visited recently to "borrow" design ideas from.
Thanks yet agian to all for some outstanding advice and knowledge, both of which we could certainly do with plenty of on this major task!
(Ron), Jon & Simon
3 novice studio designers with more dreams than cash!
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Jai
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:14 am
- Location: Dallas, Texas
- Contact:
new studio
hey guys,
Thanks for posting a new drawing. It helps to not scroll. I guess we are a lazy group.
The first thing that scares the hell out of me is your square control room and square tracking room. I cant tell from the drawings, but are they totally square? You might really, really want to take a look at the SAE or Johns site for some angles. It is really hard to get rid of room modes and such from square rooms. Don't forget, if you are going to do surround in the future, which hopefully we all will be, you will need to look at surround rooms for ideas. Yes you can put surround in a stereo room but will never have the peace of mind that comes from actually designing surrounds at 110 degree, etc. It's easy now, very hard latter.
just my 2 cents
jai
www.themixstudio.com
Thanks for posting a new drawing. It helps to not scroll. I guess we are a lazy group.
The first thing that scares the hell out of me is your square control room and square tracking room. I cant tell from the drawings, but are they totally square? You might really, really want to take a look at the SAE or Johns site for some angles. It is really hard to get rid of room modes and such from square rooms. Don't forget, if you are going to do surround in the future, which hopefully we all will be, you will need to look at surround rooms for ideas. Yes you can put surround in a stereo room but will never have the peace of mind that comes from actually designing surrounds at 110 degree, etc. It's easy now, very hard latter.
just my 2 cents
jai
www.themixstudio.com
"Love the Music in Yourself,
Not Yourself in the Music."
Not Yourself in the Music."
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VintageAudio
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:18 am
- Location: Montreal
Thanks for the info Jai
To answer your question about square rooms, our idea here is to build the flaoted floor and high STC walls for a rectangular control room area at first, and about 3 months later (when our next check arrives) close down the studio for a month or so add an additional set of floating interior splayed walls with and more proper acoustic treatments (diffusers, bass traps, slat absorbers, Sonex, ect.) and enhance the ceiling design. This is due to the fact that we have the funds to do all the floating of the control room and drum iso areas, but not quite enough until after the summer to add the second set of (splayed) walls and slope the ceiling.
We will post 2 updated floorplans soon, one for phase 1 (with somewhat larger control room dimensions so as to allow fitting the added walls later and then have "Golden Ratio" dimensions. The other floorplan will be for phase 2 when we will add the splayed walls and sloped ceiling, as well as multiple soffits for both a pair of stereo montiors and seperatly mounted (and properly spaced/angled) 5.1 monitors as well.
RON/JON/SIMON
We will post 2 updated floorplans soon, one for phase 1 (with somewhat larger control room dimensions so as to allow fitting the added walls later and then have "Golden Ratio" dimensions. The other floorplan will be for phase 2 when we will add the splayed walls and sloped ceiling, as well as multiple soffits for both a pair of stereo montiors and seperatly mounted (and properly spaced/angled) 5.1 monitors as well.
RON/JON/SIMON
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VintageAudio
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:18 am
- Location: Montreal
Any opinions of advice on this NEW 3rd Draft of floorplan
As promised, here is the latest attempt at a floorplan design for our project studio. To recap, the space is raw (other than an existing bathroom) and is sized 20' W x 46' L with 12' ceilings and is located on a top floor corner of an old factory building.
We have researched this site well, and have finally decided to go with floated and splayed control-room and drum iso areas, which we are still trying to properly plan. Since we cannot find out exact recommended angles for the splays, the floorplan is perhaps still incorrect, SO ANY ADVICE OR CORRECTIONS WOULD BE APPRECIATED!!!
Ron/Jon/Simon
Student Engineers
Montreal
We have researched this site well, and have finally decided to go with floated and splayed control-room and drum iso areas, which we are still trying to properly plan. Since we cannot find out exact recommended angles for the splays, the floorplan is perhaps still incorrect, SO ANY ADVICE OR CORRECTIONS WOULD BE APPRECIATED!!!
Ron/Jon/Simon
Student Engineers
Montreal
-
AVare
- Confused, but not senile yet
- Posts: 2336
- Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 1:56 pm
- Location: Hanilton, Ontario, Canada
-
Jai
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:14 am
- Location: Dallas, Texas
- Contact:
New Studio in Upper Floor
Hey Guys,
Thanks for the new drawings.
My first concern would be a 7' x 6.5' drum booth with the front cut off and angled which means you do not even have the 7' really. I do not think you can fit a dbl bass kit or even a large single bass drum set up, plus a person, plus room to set mics. I would go out to atleast 8.5' on both sides then cut the angle on the front. But remember, you are basically making a drum booth in the space of most bass build-up. The corner. you will need to put some traping in the ceiling if your not going to cut that corner off and put in trapping. I would cut the corner at 24" put some hangers in, 703 on the studs, and fabric cover it. Then come out 10' on each side, then about 3' small wall off the sides, to an angle front wall. That will give you enough room for drums, people, mics, and you would have some traping.
As far as angles of the inner walls. I will through my 2 cents in and what has worked for me. But, John or Kase or others that are real acousticians or have at least put lots of time in to the real nuts and bolts here might have a better grasp and put my ramblings into better form.
You need atleast a 12 degree angle between the side walls to stop flutter, etc. A 12 degree angle is basically 2" in every linear foot of wall. That would mean if you moved one wall only you would have to angle the front of the wall 32" in to get your desired effect. So, if you split the angle between two walls , 6 deree each, you only have to go 16" in at the front of the room to get the total of 12 degree. NOW THE 1" per foot rule does not give you exactly 12 degree between the two walls. I have never gotten exacts when building my angles, I have found that 1" in a foot works great and does not need exacts to work. BUT THIS IS FOR ME AND MY FINAL APPROVAL. Others might have some exacts and maybe you want exacts. Ask John, I have read better posts from him explaining it much better.
On another note, I am just finishing up a studio here and am going around trying to put boxes, mops, etc away. But I can't find a closet to put anything in. DO NOT FORGET YOU HAVE TO HAVE STORAGE AREAs. This is not my first studio to build. Everytime, Everytime, I forget about closets. Stop your studio design thoughts, think about creature comforts. Design them into your plans, and then build them!!!!!
It is soooo easy to get caught up in the "Studio" section of your design and not remember what you really need in the over all project. Slow down a bit, think about your house, a favorite studio you go to, other business'. You will need storage for office supplies, Mops/brooms, toilet paper, Mics, equipment boxes, etc. You will need a mic closet, even if you don't have a lot of mics, you need a secure place to store cables, mics, Direct Boxes, drum keys, new strings, drum sticks,. etc. You get the point, think about all that will go in your studio and where you will put it. Even if it's only going to be a private studio. You will still need storage!!!!!
Hope this all helps, Just my experience put into real world situations.
jai
www.themixstudio.com
Thanks for the new drawings.
My first concern would be a 7' x 6.5' drum booth with the front cut off and angled which means you do not even have the 7' really. I do not think you can fit a dbl bass kit or even a large single bass drum set up, plus a person, plus room to set mics. I would go out to atleast 8.5' on both sides then cut the angle on the front. But remember, you are basically making a drum booth in the space of most bass build-up. The corner. you will need to put some traping in the ceiling if your not going to cut that corner off and put in trapping. I would cut the corner at 24" put some hangers in, 703 on the studs, and fabric cover it. Then come out 10' on each side, then about 3' small wall off the sides, to an angle front wall. That will give you enough room for drums, people, mics, and you would have some traping.
As far as angles of the inner walls. I will through my 2 cents in and what has worked for me. But, John or Kase or others that are real acousticians or have at least put lots of time in to the real nuts and bolts here might have a better grasp and put my ramblings into better form.
You need atleast a 12 degree angle between the side walls to stop flutter, etc. A 12 degree angle is basically 2" in every linear foot of wall. That would mean if you moved one wall only you would have to angle the front of the wall 32" in to get your desired effect. So, if you split the angle between two walls , 6 deree each, you only have to go 16" in at the front of the room to get the total of 12 degree. NOW THE 1" per foot rule does not give you exactly 12 degree between the two walls. I have never gotten exacts when building my angles, I have found that 1" in a foot works great and does not need exacts to work. BUT THIS IS FOR ME AND MY FINAL APPROVAL. Others might have some exacts and maybe you want exacts. Ask John, I have read better posts from him explaining it much better.
On another note, I am just finishing up a studio here and am going around trying to put boxes, mops, etc away. But I can't find a closet to put anything in. DO NOT FORGET YOU HAVE TO HAVE STORAGE AREAs. This is not my first studio to build. Everytime, Everytime, I forget about closets. Stop your studio design thoughts, think about creature comforts. Design them into your plans, and then build them!!!!!
It is soooo easy to get caught up in the "Studio" section of your design and not remember what you really need in the over all project. Slow down a bit, think about your house, a favorite studio you go to, other business'. You will need storage for office supplies, Mops/brooms, toilet paper, Mics, equipment boxes, etc. You will need a mic closet, even if you don't have a lot of mics, you need a secure place to store cables, mics, Direct Boxes, drum keys, new strings, drum sticks,. etc. You get the point, think about all that will go in your studio and where you will put it. Even if it's only going to be a private studio. You will still need storage!!!!!
Hope this all helps, Just my experience put into real world situations.
jai
www.themixstudio.com
"Love the Music in Yourself,
Not Yourself in the Music."
Not Yourself in the Music."
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VintageAudio
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:18 am
- Location: Montreal
Many Thanks to Jai, AVare, Lowdbent, Aaronw & Mr. Sayers
First off, to answer AVare's question, the speaker placement shown on the diagram was not really shown to proper scale and angle (I apologize!). We intend to mix in 2 channel at first, and move in another set of 5.1 monitors on sperate stands (perhaps add 6 new correctly placed soffits at a later date if needed!).
As for Jai's assertions on storage space, it is a point very well taken!. We have included a storage closet of about 4' x 4' but I see that may be way too small. I will now add one of the floorplan suggestions made to us last night directly by John Sayer, and to this we will try and find some other vacant spots for storage and HVAC/Elect system placement/isolation.
For the Drum Iso area, we will expand this area to now fill about 8.5' x 8.5' (about the maximum we can do and still have enough space left in the tracking room) and as has been suggested by Jai we will treat the corners with traps and figure out what best to do with the ceiling, and add 703 (and/or Ruxol) where needed.
As far as the angles are concearned, I will go with Jai's 6 degree suggested minimum splay for now, unless any of you out there feel this is not the way to go!.
We have attached Mr. Sayer's excellent draft floorplan, to which we will try and add additional details and more specific measurements and repost an updated version within 5 days, so that we can once again respectfully request advice form those out there who have been of so much help and encouragement.
AS USUAL, ANY ADVICE OR SUGGESTIONS ARE ALWAYS APPRECIATED!
Do to all the superb help and support the Recording Studio Design Forum users and moderators have given us students in our search for studio design concepts, we have recently donated funds to help support this forum, and hope many others out there will do the same!.
THANKS TO ALL, WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR HELP!!
Ron (Project Manager)
Ron/Jon/Simon
Audio Engineering Students (Final Year!!!)
Complete Novice Studio Designers
Montreal
Travelreview@Hotmail.com
As for Jai's assertions on storage space, it is a point very well taken!. We have included a storage closet of about 4' x 4' but I see that may be way too small. I will now add one of the floorplan suggestions made to us last night directly by John Sayer, and to this we will try and find some other vacant spots for storage and HVAC/Elect system placement/isolation.
For the Drum Iso area, we will expand this area to now fill about 8.5' x 8.5' (about the maximum we can do and still have enough space left in the tracking room) and as has been suggested by Jai we will treat the corners with traps and figure out what best to do with the ceiling, and add 703 (and/or Ruxol) where needed.
As far as the angles are concearned, I will go with Jai's 6 degree suggested minimum splay for now, unless any of you out there feel this is not the way to go!.
We have attached Mr. Sayer's excellent draft floorplan, to which we will try and add additional details and more specific measurements and repost an updated version within 5 days, so that we can once again respectfully request advice form those out there who have been of so much help and encouragement.
AS USUAL, ANY ADVICE OR SUGGESTIONS ARE ALWAYS APPRECIATED!
Do to all the superb help and support the Recording Studio Design Forum users and moderators have given us students in our search for studio design concepts, we have recently donated funds to help support this forum, and hope many others out there will do the same!.
THANKS TO ALL, WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR HELP!!
Ron (Project Manager)
Ron/Jon/Simon
Audio Engineering Students (Final Year!!!)
Complete Novice Studio Designers
Montreal
Travelreview@Hotmail.com
-
lowdbrent
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:32 pm
My beef is this. 5.1 monitoring is not done well in a LEDE type room. Now the LS and RS channels are receiving full spectrum (same as FL and FR channels) sound.
So, perhaps the splayed walls should be re-thought. You will notice on Russ Berger, Bob Hodas, Chris Pelonis, John Storyk designed rooms, that they all have addressed the surround issue, and they are not doing an LEDE room with splayed walls in all cases.
The jury is still out on the exact angle for the surrounds, but all agree that the LEDE room of the 80's should be replaced by a "roomless" design like Hidley made popular, or doing a rectangle and dealing with the acoustics with treatment.
So, perhaps the splayed walls should be re-thought. You will notice on Russ Berger, Bob Hodas, Chris Pelonis, John Storyk designed rooms, that they all have addressed the surround issue, and they are not doing an LEDE room with splayed walls in all cases.
The jury is still out on the exact angle for the surrounds, but all agree that the LEDE room of the 80's should be replaced by a "roomless" design like Hidley made popular, or doing a rectangle and dealing with the acoustics with treatment.