> Monitor and Mix Position - General

Most of the commercial studios I have worked/mixed in have the mix position in the middle of the room, with the speakers away from the front wall, and a walk space in front of the console. I notice a lot of the designs here have the mix position much closer to the front wall with the speakers mounted within the wall, or on the wall. I am a fan of a large control room, and even my present modest home/basement studio has enough space in the control room for me, + 3 players (bass, guitar, keys) and a couple guests to hang out. Is there some advantage to this "close to the wall" speaker location, or is it just because many of these are smaller Project Studios and space is tight? I am asking because I am starting to think through my next project studio design (this will be number 3 for me). I am starting with new space and am thinking thru options before I start any detailed design. Thanks!

From what I've read arround here lately (alot) you should be placed 38% back from the front wall. Placement of the monitor depends on the individual brand/model.

Howardk wrote:

Most of the commercial studios I have worked/mixed in have the mix position in the middle of the room, with the speakers away from the front wall, and a walk space in front of the console. I notice a lot of the designs here have the mix position much closer to the front wall with the speakers mounted within the wall, or on the wall. I am a fan of a large control room, and even my present modest home/basement studio has enough space in the control room for me, + 3 players (bass, guitar, keys) and a couple guests to hang out. Is there some advantage to this "close to the wall" speaker location, or is it just because many of these are smaller Project Studios and space is tight? I am asking because I am starting to think through my next project studio design (this will be number 3 for me). I am starting with new space and am thinking thru options before I start any detailed design.

[Bolding by me] Yes it is due to the space. The geometry of the speakers and the listening position has been defined for almost 50 years, as being an equilateral triangle. So how that fits with a walkway is due space considerations. The NARAS (aka Grammy) recommendation for 5.1 sound systems is linked in this forum. A couple of the bibles I've attached at the bottom here. Congratulations on your next studio build! You obviously know that the most important thing is design. Could you take some pictures and let us see your current studio? We already know what went into the HVAC system. :D

The geometry of the speakers and the listening position has been defined for almost 50 years

I will review the materials supplied. Thanks! I am talking about the distance the speakers are from the wall, not the distance the person is from the speakers, or the associated geometry. Basically is there any advantage to having a wall close behind speakers as opposed to having a space behind the speakers. . . (this is an edit the my post after a quick scan of the document. I see the standard says at least 1 M behind the speakers).

Could you take some pictures and let us see your current studio?

It doesn't photograph well (dark colors), and is a bit of a mess right now (just moved a bunch of gear out for pre-tour rehearsals). . . I will get back on that at some point.

We already know what went into the HVAC system. :D

Ah yes, a post from way back in 2004, seems like a century ago. That had nothing to do with my place and was for a youth center that asked me to help out with their place. In the end they wanted to do it with no building permits, no ventilation, no budget, well no nothing is probably the best way to put it, so I just backed away. I don't think it ever happened. (I love this forum!)

Could you take some pictures and let us see your current studio?

Ok, here it goes. . . as you will see I am not mister neat and tidy (my wife is more than tolerant), but I do get a lot of projects done. By the way, I did try posting the photos on this site, using Attachments, but it stopped allowing me to add photo attachments after about 5 jpgs, even thought the photos are only 50-70k each. . . I must be missing something. . . so I posted the photos to my site and used the "Img" button. Suggestions? Photo Index http://www.groovejungle.com/StudioDesign/index2.htm 1) Basic Layout 2) Entrance Way - Down the stairs 3) Snare Drum Storage - on the way to the lounge 4) Lounge/TV 5) Control Room - view of back 6) Vocal Booth - view from engineer position 7) Vocal Booth - inside view 8) Control Room - view from rear Client desk 9) Vestibule to Drum Booth 10) Drum Booth - and overdubs of acoustic instruments 11) The Big Mess - but it works. I know what I want to do to clean this up, I just haven't done it (the list of reasons is long, in short not until the next place). 12) Remote AMP/Re-Amp Area (Garage)

the biggest challenge is the sides of your mix position have two different boundaries - one is very close and the other far. this will alter the way you hear things because of time delay differences in reflections, comb filtering off the near wall, and oddities in the low end response. if you could turn the mix desk and couch so the desk faces the vox booth and the couch is nearer the kitchen counter, you might be better off, then add absorption on each side and overhead, and get your monitors on stands behind the desk. you'll still be able to see both the vox and the drums.

I think that what you are seeing in larger pro studios is deceiving. The visual "middle" of the room might not be the acoustic "middle" of the room. Very often, in a larger studio, there will be much more space hidden behind false walls that hide acoustic treatment. In Masterfonics in Nashville, the back false wall in their mastering rooms is 6-8 feet away from the actual back of the room but you don't notice this unless you get a peek behind the curtain.... Being in the middle of the room is usually bad since a higher amount of room modes will culminate there, altering the bass response in a bad way. -ashley

gullfo wrote:

the biggest challenge is the sides of your mix position have two different boundaries - one is very close and the other far. this will alter the way you hear things because of time delay differences in reflections, comb filtering off the near wall, and oddities in the low end response. if you could turn the mix desk and couch so the desk faces the vox booth and the couch is nearer the kitchen counter, you might be better off, then add absorption on each side and overhead, and get your monitors on stands behind the desk. you'll still be able to see both the vox and the drums.

Sorry, my layout drawing (Photo 1) equipment position is out-of-date. I did have the problem with midrange confusion on the right, so I have moved over to more of a center point (you can see in photo 8) by swapping positions with the O2R(which is only used for cue mixes). Now I am in similar distance from left to right, and there is not confusing early reflection. I had thought to rotate, but did not because then I can not get at the back of computers, racks etc. . . and the ceiling has a couple of different heights, and I wanted to stay away from being under the low section. I will consider it again. Right now my biggest problem is low end response. It has been awhile since I measured it (using SMAART or even just sweep the low-end and listen, also watching a VU meter w/ mic at head position to confirm) but I remember the problem to be fairly low (null at around 45 Hz) I have done the "put the sub at mix position and listen for the spot in the room were the sub sounds strongest and then put the sub there" exercise. This did help improve things a bit, but I am still far from out of the woods. Someone suggested angling the ceiling, I haven't had a chance to think it thru for a way to test that out. I do have a big living space on the main floor with 8-12 ft vaulted ceilings and about 30'x16' that has a comfortable bass response. I suggested I move my control room up there but for some reason my wife does not like the idea, so I just do some monitoring up there at critical stages (send AES Digital and control ProTools with VNC from my laptop) to help make good decisions in the 30-80Hz zone. Any more thoughts/suggestions on this? I will try and do some measuring in the next week or so and bring back some more tangible information.

bassman wrote:

I think that what you are seeing in larger pro studios is deceiving. The visual "middle" of the room might not be the acoustic "middle" of the room. Very often, in a larger studio, there will be much more space hidden behind false walls that hide acoustic treatment. In Masterfonics in Nashville, the back false wall in their mastering rooms is 6-8 feet away from the actual back of the room but you don't notice this unless you get a peek behind the curtain.... Being in the middle of the room is usually bad since a higher amount of room modes will culminate there, altering the bass response in a bad way. -ashley

I hear you and understand. My original post was more focused on the front wall speakers position. Yes, I have seen false back walls, behind which was 3/4" plywood sheets suspended 2 high, perpendicular to the wall, across the whole back wall, spaced about a 18" apart, with fiberglass attached (Basically 8 ft deep, by 10ft high, by 14ft wide of loosely compressed fiberglass). It does take up a lot of space, but what a bass trap. If space is at a premium, but accurate bass response is of much importance. . . what about a utility/storage/ server room behind the back wall, make the wall slotted with black felt behind for a clean visual, lined with thick rigid fiber lining, the slots and room chamber designed to resonate at the frequency that would create a null if it came back, so very little would ever make it out. Somebody with certain expertise insinuated this kind thing is a dumb idea ("The notion of designing bass traps that target specific frequencies is old school"). It still makes sense in my mind, and I was not provided a reason why it is a bad idea. Although this is not practical for my present room, I am looking at my next design and in my mind this ideas has merit. Hmm. . . I wonder what am I missing in my thinking? or is "old school" a good thing in this case?

nothing wrong with targeting problem frequencies. but start with broadband treatment. if you target a small set of frequencies with your trapping, whats the chances you'll actually hit them? plus the treatments may need to be in other places in the room to work effectively. if you have space to spare, then build some nice deep broadband bass trapping. if you don't have floor space, use the ceiling-wall corners. build soffits around the wall-ceiling corners and make those do some work.