New Basement Studio

Here is a rough sketch of what I am about to build There are a few tweaks I need to make, Specifically I want this to be a 5.1 Room. Of course I decided that after doing this drawing. As We all toss in our opinions I like others opinions of what I am doing here. This is a pretty simple design, the total avaliabel space is 13.5 x 26.5 These are the basic specs. All Walls will be wuilt 6" away from the existing concrete basement wall for breathing, etc.... Al Floors will be floated in case of flooding. I have 8' ceilings in the basement save for one beam which has been accounted for. What you don't see is the other 7 feet of basement space to the left of the frawing, Stairs occupy about 4' x 16' (in the middle) the rear 5' of this space will be storage and Electircal access. I am swaping out the old gas Water Heater for an Electric one. No ductwork required. The old furnace will be replaced with a very High efficiency unit. All Air conditioning will be mini splits. I like the idea of keeing it all separate. All I really need is cooling. Bryan Giles

That looks fine Bryan - what problems do you have with it?? cheers john

My Only concern is i layed out the control room before deciding I did want to be able to mix in surround in this room. As I have never done that before I was seeking guidance for design with that in mind. I will keep the room upstairs for primarily stereo mixing of course. Basics, I will be using Mackie HR824 for Main stereo, 624 for rear Surrounds and 626 for Center and HRS 120 for sub So My questions become ones of orientation, placement and treatment concerns due the speakers reflecting back towards the front of the room. I was looking at this room you designed after I did this design and was curious as to what treatments, etc..... Of course this looks much larger than what I am considering. So I guess those are my specific concerns

Here is an idea of what I am thinking obciously with the window reversed Bryan Giles I am editing this post to include my understanding. As I read, I am gathering that most surround rooms lean more towards the deader side of things. If I am incorrect please correct me. I will quote Steve. (Absorption on any wall a speaker is pointing towards.) Now as i am greener than green with the surround thing but it is what I amafter, wher cna I look to do extensive research regarding surround control room costurction and treatment placement. if i have overlooked it , I apologize to those who know where it is readily available. Also, I;d like my speakers soffit mounted if practical. I will add this information I have gleaned.... Control rooms for surround monitoring require less reflective reinforcement from the room than typical stereo control rooms in order to avoid interference with the surround field. Still, the largest amount of acoustic energy will come from the front speakers, and considerable stereo production will continue for some time. It is possible to achieve a diffuse field from the back of the room appropriate for stereo and monaural monitoring without adversely affecting the function of the rear monitors during surround projects. The key to achieving this acoustical balance is careful management of the surround monitors' energy to avoid unwanted interaction with the rear wall acoustical treatment. In the design of a surround sound control, the physical space and monitors must be treated as an integral system. Careful analysis of the individual room and its physical and acoustical relationships with the listener(s) and monitors will determine the appropriate treatment. Proper balance and placement of absorptive, reflective and diffusive surfaces are just as important in a surround control room as they are in a traditional stereo control room. All this is great info, but now getting practical...... Where??? is what placed. Now I will toss in one pc of confusion, this was dated 1998. I have been googling my but off and can;t find anything more recent that I CAN read. LOL. I read a german paper where the L & R are the normal 60 degree splay, but the Rear units are 120 for DTS and 110 for VDT THX/Dolby has the L/R 45 degrees off center. Finally looking at a THX PM3 room it almost seems as if the room is completely dead.

Finally I must add, I am not seeking to build this room for THX PM3 Certification. That is way out my league. Just wanna be able to do small scale DVD's for local projects. SO something that is workable, looks and sounds good. Bryan Giles Boy oh Boy this is my own dynamic post in progress. LOL For the front left and right speakers, the recommendation is that they be placed such that the angle formed by the speakers and the console seating position is 45 degrees (±3 degrees, according to THX), for film, video, or television soundtrack production. However, recognizing that some clients desire the ITU-R standard for 5.1 music monitoring, which have the front left and right speakers positioned together with the console to form a 60-degree angle, THX allows for this configuration, provided that the pm3 facility is going to be devoted to 5.1 music production. Guess I need to renew my Surround Sound Pro Magazine Subscription.

"Guess I need to renew my Surround Sound Pro Magazine Subscription" - That would be a start - I'm still trying to find time to read Tom Holman's "Up and running with 5.1 surround", think I also have a couple other books on it. Tom Holman and Bobby Owsinski are two of the "players" in this, they both contribute to Surround Pro. You've already stated the main problems here, that of "standards" - it's still changing on almost a daily basis. Makes me almost GLAD my own new free-standing facility is a few years away... You saw my comments about the "reversible room" thing using wall inserts, right? That sure seems like it could work... Steve

hey Steve, Yeah ate all that up and scoured the net looking at any and all pics of studios. I have decided i will chase the THX 5.1 Music Surround Standard. which is what you and John have posted in that thread you spoke of. My next question becomes one of treatment placement, I figured I'd have the areas where I wanna soffit speakers absorbtive, but what about the spaces between speakers (left and right walls) where there is no direct reflection of the cabinets. Can I have maybe slat resonators or something. aside from paying THX a ton of loot....Where can i find a bootleg plan, or detailed recomendations. Not the vague stuff that really only covers speakers. etc.. You know what I mean. :) I am concerned with building a room that is over absorbed compared to a RFZ room, unless that is what the 5.1 boys are saying. The guys you mention were why I got my previous subscription, but they dealt with more mixing aspects than control room design as I rescan the mags. So that swings me back to Johns layout i posted, where are the suggested treatments being palced. I recognize that is a freestanding speaker room, I am sure I can adapt to soffited cabinets, etc.... 1 Drawback is where i would place a window is in a direct path of one of the surround speakers. How much issue will that cause, etc... A lot of info to disiminate. Can't wait till I am ready to build the BIG facility. At that point I am done thinking, I am completely hiring John for the job. :) Bryan Giles

More thoughts.... I need a decent drawing program that is cheap... Arrghh! Microsoft needs to fix Virtual PC NOW!!!!! Anyway.... Here is what I am putting together. Treatments. Wall by Wall. Window Wall. Make sure the glass is tilted 6 degress downward to reflect sound towards the florring. Ceiling will be absorptive, floor reflective. Behind window wall will be a soffit for that surround speaker and slats completing the angled protion of the wall. Opposite wall will be absorptive in the window location and same design (slats/soffit). I am considering a front and side wall design similar to the soffit john designed, all the way around.. (save for the slat area I described above) whereas there is a 12" opening at the bottom with the bass hangers behind that wall. above that is a recessed area with 1" 703/Rockwool covered in fabric. The difference will be that the area above the speakers in the Main soffits and the Center channel soffit will still be timber finish, but elsewhere it will the recessed absorptive deal. John what do you think (realistically) of this area being covered in plastic sheeting for the HF reflectivity, a layer of fabric and still maintaing LF absorption? What possible issues can you see with the one Surround speaker pointing into that location? Is this a bad idea? Am I out on a Limb, talking crazy or making sense. Thanks guys for all your help. Bryan Giles

Not much time right now, but offhand I'd NOT fire a surround speaker at a window. 6 degrees is NOT enough to get the reflections under control, that's only for parallel surface flutter echo. If you need the window there, I'd assume it's only needed during tracking and NOT during mixing - I would put rails above the window (and opposite that are, keeping plane symmetry) for hanging absorbers, then just hang the absorbers over the window when mixing. Rather than my earlier plan of building "inserts" for the front walls, I've decided that the rail idea would work better. Rather than go looking for the drawing, I'll post it here again... Steve

Hmm nothing simpler huh? I am a typical briefcase engineer. I like to just walk in and work. It sorta violates my 5lb Weight limit term in my personal living contract. Perhaps something sliding behind the angled treatment walls would suffice. iId prefer a lazy frame on rollers solution as oippossed to that. :) Thanks, Bryan Giles My comment regarding that was based on the plan above. (the window, etc.)

Bryan - I'm coming to the conclusion that for a predominately 5:1 room , as opposed to a stereo room that will occasionally do 5:1 you need to make the glass doors in a standard room you window into the studio so the control room is side on top the live room. This allows the front section to be dead LCR and the surround and rear wall to be dead or diffuse but the two sides are bright. Like this studio Angel Mountain http://www.angelmtn.com/html/facility/facility.htm cheers john

Cool looking CR, John - they apparently went with 5 full-range mains instead of using a sub? Or is it there too? Hey, at least I can afford the right chair - the miller chairs are well worth their price tag, mine probably saved me from being a cripple... Steve

John Sayers wrote:

so the control room is side on top the live room.

You lost me there. Not sure of the meaning. Yes this will be primarily a 5.1 room ocassionally Stereo Getting ready to do these Music Videos for the wifes Project. And then be positioned for her next project to release a 2 cd set 1-Surround Mixes and 1-Stereo Mixes. Barring we have a great year and break ground on the next facility. Bryan Giles

Let Me see if I Got you correctly Here are 2 pics from that site of the smaller post room. More in line with what I am seeking (still big, but I can scale it) I am noticing the doors on either side. So I can do the window on one side? and possible a slat resonator on the other side? Keeping my rear control dead and the LCR dead? And the walls behind the Ls/Rs dead also? Or should I consider a reflective surface under the LCR (such as a slat resonator) like I see in the pic. I am certain I shall be angling speakers down (probaly have them at a 55" to 60" height with the appropriate angle. That way I can keep my LCD monitors where they need to be. :) As far as the floor I notice it is reflective only at the sliding door positions everywhere else is carpeted. Hmmm.... I also notice the ceiling is a series of clouds angled to break up floor to ceiling (speaker to floor to ceiling) waves?? Perhaps for my adaptation I can just do a multi angled ceiling to break all that up. Sorta like a reverse concave mirror (only blockier)? John, What you think? Bryan Giles I think I have a clearer pic of what I am to do. The above is my proposal for my little room.

One more pic. Bryan Giles Additional observations, Except at the door opening and front window locations, all other surfaces are absorptive. Of course the rear wall being a combination of diffussion and absorption.

I think I almost got it. LOL Thanks for everyone's patience wqhilst I sort this out in my own personal thread that hopefully educates other trying to do this on a budget. John you mention both sides being bright/reflective. Ok, I probably wrote this above but i am attempting to reorganize my thoughts so that they make sense. For my purposes. Front of control room. LCR, cabinets up in air angled down towards mix position. Below L/R absorptive, below C, Reflective (perhaps slat resonator). Side walls, One with window, from floor to about 54", other side Slat resonator same dimensions as window. Side walls past window, absorptive (Ls/Rs) will be located in soffits angled down as well. Rear wall, Absorptive/bass trapping. due to shallowness of my room, no hard reflective surfaces back there. Floor, reflective from widnow to resonator, everywwhere else carpeted/absorptive. Ceiling, various cloud type angles to absorb sound reflections at the various reflective angles, especially over the window/resonator areas. If this sounds like I am headed in the right direction lemme know. :) Bryan Giles

"LCR, cabinets up in air angled down towards mix position" - Level with ears is better - less reflection problems off console/desk surfaces. Absorb rear of desk. "below C, Reflective " - Don't think so - go here - http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 9&start=45 and "shoot a bank shot" from the left surround to the left side of the center front section, it will come back real close to the mix position. Same with the other side. That's why the whole front needs to be absorptive for 5.1 :? All, of course, spoken from a well-entrenched position of pure ignorance :roll: ... Steve

I have seen both speaker mountings. I see more of the angled down than anything. For me I need to go up cuz that center speaker will be shooting right into the back of my LCD's and I will never hear them, unles I go with a different desk. But I am trying to keep the cost down. I can see your point of a dead front surface. Ultimately my concern is a too dead room. I am sure some of the reaosn they do what they do is because of CR to LR visibility. I am hoping the sidewall reflective surface is adequete. Basically I am looking at building what I posted in that pic. (not the glass in front) that is angled downward. Thanks for all your input. I am searching like mad for more studio pics and designs so I can search out a common theme of design. Bryan Giles to Summarize, basicaly the Reflective lower front surface is the questionable thing?

Yeah, pretty much. I think you're right about why you see so many down-firing speakers - I like John's approach of no front window because of that, because I intend to fight high speaker placement when I get to my CR (probably right after pigs fly; can you hear the whining in my voice?) I've been working on a design for a desk (3 piece for movability, probably) that will allow 3 19" LCD's low and angled back, sitting behind the two mixers, with 3 nearfields equidistant on a semi-circular bridge - it's been a bitch getting heights/angles/ergonomics right, but I'm getting closer - I saved that link you gave me on arms, just in case the stock pedestals won't go where I want (once I know where that is) - Once this is done, I'll absorb the rear of the desk and if necessary, take down the nearfields when using the soffited mains (if reflections are noticeable) The good/bad news is: all this is still many moons away, so I'll have plenty of chances to get the desk design ironed out before I build it... Steve

Ok, Kool so I can be the no budget 5.1 Guinea pig guy. LOL I was looking at that argosy 90-V series possibly. It's only 2K, but once it is bought it is bought. Not like these dad-blasted CPU's I have to keep buying every year. LOL Well I am back to the pen and paper. God I wish Virtual PC worked in OS X.3 Gonna do the whole layout and scan it in hopefully That would look so pretty though, small slat resonator on the lower front wall. Honey Oak Stain. Heck I tried to do 5.1 last night, just to see how the CPU handles the task, My Computer was crawling. So I guess I am buying a New G5 DP next week. :)

Ultimately my concern is a too dead room.

yeah - that's my concern also. Also - consider that use of each speaker and from my view the rear speakers are only ambience speakers really - who is going to put kick and snare in the rear speakers?? :shock: :shock: cheers john

John, That was my main point I guess. The rear surrounds are just filler mainly. So I figured I have seen about 5 rooms online today that have a front lower reflective wall. (Recessed a bit I noticed, not flush with the speaker soffit walls) I assumed that was to keep the ambience of the room pretty decent. As soon as I finish my next sketch I will scan and upload. :) Bryan Giles

Here is some old but benefi cial info from Dolby While many room shapes may work, the ideal room is symmetrical along the line between the center speaker and the reference listening position. An environment with no parallel walls (including the floor and ceiling) helps prevent the buildup of lowfrequency standing waves. A minimum height of 3 meters (9 feet) is desirable. As recommended previously, control rooms are often set up in a symmetrical design, making it tempting to locate the sub in an equally symmetrical location (for instance, along the center line under the front speaker). However, a symmetrical placement in a symmetrical room often creates symmetrical standing waves and thus, an uneven room response. Placing the sub slightly asymmetrically may produce a more satisfactory result. Using a second sub can also help smooth out uneven room response problems Good things to note as I embark. :)

The original designers of studios first went for a sweet spot where the speakers were set at 60 degrees and aimed at the listener, fine…………… but then the big consoles came in and the engineer found himself sitting in front of channel 28. If he wanted to change something on channel 1 he moved out of the sweet spot to adjust the kick drum on channel 1. So they devised a way to move the sweet spot so it was behind the engineer and he could go to channnel 1 and still be within the sweet spot based on the fact that the tweeter had a 30 degree axis so if you stayed within that axis you had a full spectrum signal. They also added the diffusor rock face either side of the speakers to in some way support this idea. 5:1 determines that each speaker have the same baffle for each speaker and be at the same distance from the listener…... Fine…. so every speaker is directed equally at you. Ok if you work at a DAW and don’t move from your spot but if you have a 14 foot wide console what do yo do?? cheers john

If you can afford a 14-foot long console in the first place, just ask either of the two assistants on either side of you (whose salaries you can ALSO afford) what they hear 8) But, actually, it seems as if most "surrounders" are moving toward the small footprint digital desks - Tascam, Ramsa, Mackie, etc, for us poor folk, and Sony, Yamaha DM2000, etc, for the Owsinski/Holman/Scheiner crowd "Ultimately my concern is a too dead room" - Probably why the trend is toward adding the ambience back with DSP, while still avoiding the early reflection problem. What else can be done? Which is why my tentative plan of "switchable surfaces" still doesn't sound so bad to me - just need to keep in mind the need for a "gobo closet"... Steve