I'm stuck on Sepmeyer and Louden! I need help!

I'm trying to come up with a floor plan for a medium sized (1200 sq ft or so) multipurpose recording/mixing studio. It will be an add-on to my house and will share some house space to equal the 1200 sq ft. After reading Rod Gervais' fabulous book and scanning forums etc. I must have missed important concepts regarding room sizes. I don't know how to determine HxWxL values for rooms that have non-parallel and oddly shaped walls as well as sloping or changing ceiling heights. I'm trying to stick to Sepmeyer and Louden ratios (1:1.14:1.39/1:1.40:1.90)but don't know how to apply them to shapes other than cubes and the like. I'm at a loss... any suggestions? am I being too worried or not worried enough?? I'm no math wiz and need to have concrete (no pun intended) help. Fortunately my design is a bit flexible right now but the push is on to get estimates and secure financing. This project will take me years to complete but the concrete "shell" (pad, walls and roof) need to go up next year. I want to avoid making big mistakes from the start by designing spaces that could have been planned better now and really can't be changed later. This is my first forum participation so let me know if I'm up to speed on protocol etc. So glad this forum exists. Anxiously awaiting some help!

you might want to give John a call...

Thanks for responding Gullfo. I did some private posting and Kendale responded with requests for more information. I've gotten back to him. Since my first post I was able to find more good information re. use of the ratios and their overall value of use with a project the size I'm planning for now (control room and iso booth, drum booth and live room into about 1,000 to 1,100 square feet of new space). I can only do what I call the "shell" right now (heated concrete slab with Amvic styrofoam walls filled with concrete" and attaching to my existing home. It seems as though the place to start (as Randale suggested) is to try and apply the ratios to a control room design first (along with acoustical treatment needs)and then do the best I can with remaining spaces for the rooms I want to have. Once I get this worked out and get better at Sketchup I hope to use the open forum for all the feedback I can get. I will try and call John as well because all the information I can gain will help in making these really tough choices. I'm starting from scratch and have to stay within reasonable size, price and space utilization needs...but who doesn't right! You guys are the best and I greatly appreciate your involvement. I hope you'll be hearing from me soon.

Aloha,

(as Randale suggested)

Randale? :shock: :lol: Who's that? :wink: Aloha 8)

OOPS! :oops: a big duh on my part! Sorry Kendale...senioritice I suspect! :roll: :lol: I've taken another look at John's "corner control room" design and it is really fitting my needs and would attach to my existing space sweetly...just not sure I could do it that big but perhaps 32'x38' could work for me (looks like his design was more like 32'x40'. Then it will be up to the bank to see if it works for them!! Look forward to hearing form you on my last post. cioa for now

Aloha, No worries, I was just ribbing you. :wink: That design could quite possibly work for your situation. Give me couple of days to put something together. Aloha 8)

You got it...no offense taken! I work with kids and really appreciate the joking! Very good :D ! Well, I'm off to cut more trees while the weather is holding (usually snow by now but it's been in the 60's to 70's :o .) Yes there are some bright spots to global warming in our neck of the woods :lol: . ciao for now.

Aloha, M.M. Louden Height Width Length 1.00 1.40 1.90 12’ x 16’8” x 22’8” 1.00 1.30 1.90 1.00 1.50 2.10 • 5.1 control room • small dead iso booth • large live room - choirs, very small orchestras, classical ensembles, and the full gambit of jazz, blues, country, rock, head banging • drum booth Perhaps something like this? Aloha 8)

Wow lookin' good! 8) :D Thanks so much for your efforts thus far Kendale! My dreams have the best of me but I'm sure the bank may have other thoughts :lol: If, if, if, I can do the larger space, this is more what I'm after pictured. ( I find this an easier method than sketcup right now.) I took John's design for the control room and printed it to 1/4" scale by sheer luck and then cut it out and fit it into my space. I'm trying to get closer to the better room ratios if I can. Also, I got feedback about an engineered ceiling and it seems that it will be the 12" syrofoam Amvic floor/ceiling blocks with steel girders imbedded. Then about 4" of concrete and rebar poured within and above the foam blocks (total 16" thick). This will give me the strength for the 30' plus clear span of the second floor, over the studio. Any further thoughts? By the way, your two models show double stud walls around the control booth only. Was this just for convinience in drawing or are you meaning only single walls between other spaces? Probably not but just wanted to be sure. Thanks. Any thoughts anyone else has are very welcome as well :D !

Aloha,

your two models show double stud walls around the control booth only. Was this just for convenience in drawing or are you meaning only single walls between other spaces? Probably not but just wanted to be sure. Thanks.

Convenience and timeliness. It had been several days since I responded and I wanted to get a basic idea back to you before too long. Yes, I would go with double walls.

Also, I got feedback about an engineered ceiling and it seems that it will be the 12" syrofoam Amvic floor/ceiling blocks with steel girders imbedded. Then about 4" of concrete and rebar poured within and above the foam blocks (total 16" thick). This will give me the strength for the 30' plus clear span of the second floor, over the studio.

I would check with Rod or John on this area. Aloha 8)

Thanks much for the sketches! the Amvic folks are doing the clear span engineering, no charge. I will have to get some rough quotes on the shell plus heating and that will determine my final size. Then I'll probably tweak details before attempting to contact John or Rod when my budget is better known. It's good to see that the 32'x32' design could work fairly well. I think I finally understand about ratios and the highest priority being placed upon control room size/ratios and of course the inevitable room treatments. The rest of the room dimensions will have to be up to budget and acoustical treatments. About ceiling height... My best case scenario will probably be 16' in the recording spaces and 12' in the control room. My worst case scenario would be 10' in the control room and 14' in the other spaces. It is my sense that the higher the overall ceiling I can get the better (then ceiling treatment to follow). Is this accurate thinking??

Aloha,

It's good to see that the 32'x32' design could work fairly well. I think I finally understand about ratios and the highest priority being placed upon control room size/ratios and of course the inevitable room treatments.

Glad to hear that the design works for you. IMO, it would be very difficult to make accurate judgment calls on mic selection and placement, dynamic & eq processing, etc, without having an accurate point of reference and the least amount of anomalies to contend with. It's something to reach for at the very least. This is not to say, however, that the acoustics of the other rooms aren't important as well, especially when using multiple micing techniques. As the saying goes, "Garbage in, garbage out."

About ceiling height... My best case scenario will probably be 16' in the recording spaces and 12' in the control room. My worst case scenario would be 10' in the control room and 14' in the other spaces. It is my sense that the higher the overall ceiling I can get the better (then ceiling treatment to follow). Is this accurate thinking??

You sir, a very fortunate man. Generally speaking, a higher ceiling is better than one, say at 7' (or less, as is the case, sometimes) and providing that the ratios and treatments are as "best case scenario" as is feasibly possible. This would be a good place to start. :wink: There are, however, other factors that can and will affect the overall "sound" or performance of the room - proper acoustic treatment, isolation, and construction designs, not to mention accurate monitoring, just to name a few. And then you have all the gear selection (and operation of such gear) talent/instruments/program material being recorded, etc. to manage as well. All said, think of it as a system. It's only as good as the weakest link in the chain. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

Yes, very helpful :D You are right. I am very lucky to have a great location with no neighbors and plenty of land, ground slope etc. I hope I'm as lucky with the bank! :lol:

Generally speaking, a higher ceiling is better than one, say at 7' (or less, as is the case, sometimes) and providing that the ratios and treatments are as "best case scenario" as is feasibly possible. This would be a good place to start. There are, however, other factors that can and will affect the overall "sound" or performance of the room - proper acoustic treatment, isolation, and construction designs, not to mention accurate monitoring, just to name a few. And then you have all the gear selection (and operation of such gear) talent/instruments/program material being recorded, etc. to manage as well. All said, think of it as a system. It's only as good as the weakest link in the chain.

I can appreciate and get it about all the other variables and I think I understand, from limited experience and reading, how this is a whole system concept, but I need to break this detail down a bit more to save money where I can yet not compromise in the wrong places. I get the feeling that I'm trying to pin you down to something that may have no absolute answer. :? I hope you'll excuse my process here but are you saying that, even if I don't have the wall dimensions for ideal room ratios based upon a higher ceiling, it is still best to have the highest ceiling possible anyway? (Then do what I need to later to effectively treat it and the rest of the room? I am intrigued by the thought of a live room that I could mic at various heights for varying room reverb effects/ambiance !) Would the higher ceiling offer me more choices/flexibility later after construction, even if the wall dimensions (L and W) remain the same? Would I be better off saving my money on lower ceilings and fit them to the ratios based on what I can afford for room L and W dimensions and spend my money more advantagiously elswhere? Perhaps spending the money saved by going with lower ceilings and making the building longer and wider and thus coming closer to ideal room ratios? It's probably a combination of my fear of committing and lack of experience that is hanging me up here. Please help if you can. :?

Aloha,

I hope you'll excuse my process here but are you saying that, even if I don't have the wall dimensions for ideal room ratios based upon a higher ceiling, it is still best to have the highest ceiling possible anyway?

Um, no. :wink: What I am trying to say is that if I had the option, space & budget to choose between an 8' ceiling AND one of the recommended ratios VERSUS a 14' ceiling AND one of the recommended ratios, I would go with the "14' ceiling AND one of the recommended ratios." It appears that you have the space. What needs to be determined is what your budget will allow you to do. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

AHAAAAAAAAA! 8) yes I see...very good and thanks! Well, as I get it together I'll post and let you know how things are going and where I'm at. Hidie ho to the bank we go! wish me luck and thanks again.

Aloha, Best of success to you and yours! :D :wink: Aloha 8)

I've clipped and pasted some of my PM to Kendale. Since then I have actually called John S. and am preparing for my next set of questions to put out there. My needs are a good sized control room, adequate small dead iso booth, large enough live room and an adequate drum booth. I live in a very remote area with little to offer the community, especially the kids and artists. I want to create a space that can be used by choirs, very small orchestras, classical ensembles, and the full gambit of jazz, blues, country, rock, head banging you name it. I also hope to be able to do video work (voice overs etc. with a screen) for a local visual arts friend with a non-profit as well as set up for recording surround sound some day. I need the flexibility to track multiple rooms at once for full bands at times and prefer this to layering tracks more than absolutely necessary. I'm really leaning towards John's ( I believe it is his design) corner control room design because I like the use of space and the good full view of all rooms. My dream is to retire in hopefully less than 10 years from my money maker (Clinical Psychotherapist working with severly abused kids and broken up families) and to have this up and running;(If this project gets too much bigger I'll never retire!) I'm a bit handy having built 2 good sized homes of my own to date so I'll do most of the work myself. Almost no codes or permits up here in Northern ME! Right now, with chainsaw in hand,I'm clearing the land and road and saving the white pine to saw up for my slat resonators...feels good anyway...progress? My plan is to ultimately serve the amateur to the professional as I think our setting has a lot to offer and musicians will travel if the studio reputation is there. I'm a musician and "sound guy" and at 57 years I'm tired of lugging equipment. The space would be my dream come true since my "garage band days". I've attached my latest drawing for anyone to look at and give feedback if you like. I'd appreciate any insights I can get! I'll try to get a couple of location shots as well. My exterior walls will be Amvic foam stacked blocks filled with 8" of concrete and rebar, STC50 (but of course this doesn't apply much to those pesky low frequencies) (exterior dimensions of 34'x38') I'm in the woods so no matter . I will likely use the "inside-out wall construction for the exterior walls of the recording spaces and double parallel walls for interior dividing walls. Above me will be my wife's warehouse and office for her online web store of imported ethical and environmentally sustainable clothing and other products. She doesn't really bang around much. With a wood floor to her space (my ceiling) and the room inside a room design, John feels the isolation will be adequate and I agree. As far as room ratios goes, the discusion with John put that all in perspective for me and I'm not so hung up on the details of it (except for the control room) and am going with the highest ceilings I can get and the safest room dimensions i can figure out (ie. no squares or symetrical designs etc.). Room treatment will be a must anyway, especially with my size constraints (Don't get me wrong here, I feel incredibly fortunate to have the spaces I am considering possibly (will be seeing the banker next week....argggg) available to me! I'm in awe of how much others are doing and have done with so much less! I just hope I can do my space justice!) I'd like to open this project up for review and get as much feedback as I can. Right now, My big dilemma is how to design and construct ceilings (I think I can afford 14' ceilings and will use the room within a room technique) in the recording spaces and control room. I love the idea that Rod Gervais used in one design where the ceiling tapers up in stages with what looks like "inside-out wall" (ceiling) design with varying slats for the live room. Not sure about how to do the drum booth. I do understand about parallel surfaces but unclear about my options in tapering, varying, and treating ceiling designs, let alone how to get them up there and supported, especially the "inside out" sections concept. Any thoughts? thanks, jp