Hey folks -
I don't know how else to word this question. Right now my room (roughly 14x20x9.5, splayed walls and ceiling) is just finished with drywall and concrete floor. It is very echo-ey... I will surely add some sound treatment after I get the basic wall/ceiling/floor finish in. But I was just wondering, from your collective experience, does wood paneling sound okay for a studio?
I can't find much data on sound absorption for wood. The little I did find showed hardwoods to be more absorbative than cedar (a softwood). It also showed the hardwood to be fairly good at absorbing low frequencies I'm looking for a soft, slightly muted sound. Mostly country music or voice-over use. Any thoughts?
Creature 82
Does wood paneling sound okay?
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 9388.
Creature,
In terms of reverberation, wood paneling over drywall will not make the room sound all that much different from what you have. In terms of the quality of the room sound (the sonic character), it might be a little more pleasing to the ear than drywall. (Wood generally has a more "natural" sonic character than drywall.)
Wood paneling in lieu of drywall will result in a different sound to the room altogether. It will still be more or less as reverberant as the room with drywall, but the sonic character will be more pleasing, IMO.
The added LF absorption with wood paneling can be got, but only if you tear out the drywall and replace it with the wood. (Wood paneling over drywall will actually worsen the LF response due to the added stiffness.)
Either way - wood paneling or drywall - you will still need to consider acoustical treatments for the room to make it usable for a studio room.
Thanks, lovecow. I'll likely continue my plan of wood paneling, although I won't limit my choice to only hardwoods. I'll be prepared to add plenty of room treatment. Regards, Creatch.
Creature82
If you found different absorption for different types of wood that MOST LIKELY was related to the mounting method (mass-spring systems, resonances).
You are comparing things which likely are hardly related with the wood in itself.
If you buy hardwood, cedar, pine, whatever, buy it because you like one more as the other and you've the money for hardwood.
Comparing types of wood in function of absorption for room acoustics is close to senseless.
The reason you find that little absorption data for different types of wood is because it's hardly worth measuring it.
And it's quiet impossible that you found hardwood absorbing better than cedar. What you looked at are differences between mounting methods or whatever other circumstance, certainly NOT the absorption difference between hardwood and cedar.
If I should glue wood in a reverb room against the boundaries, no matter what difference I should measure between the types of wood falls mainly within the measurement uncertainties of the room. And that is certainly true once the wood got whatever normal protective coating.
And if I mount it on a framing system or lay it loose on the ground or create resonators from them , then I measure other properties than the absorption of the wood in itself.
I once was involved here in such a discussion (for a huge governmental music institute = tax payers money). The architect or designer claimed that teak (much more expensive than oak) was the best for the sound. The amount of money involved was enormous, really enormous. When I asked for the study substantiating this choice the related study seemed lost, just evaporated, and I was asked that I should stop pushing any further. The whole situation smelled.
I designed the acoustics/treatment of this hall: http://www.galaxy.be/ (that site seems not to make direct linking possible)
Search for the big hall. That room is about 320 m2 with a height of +/- 7.6 m. Look at the amount of wood used on floor and walls.
I told before execution, that they had to glue that wood perfectly, better than strict mechanically needed in order to keep it acoustically neutral.
After being mounted that hall had a warm typical wood sound (which translated means a typical coloration).
I even could measure and show with narrow-band vibration measurements what made that typical wood sound, by comparing it with the same measurements on the concrete walls.
All that wood (walls + floor) was DEmounted again (being glued not evident at all, can you imagine the manpower and problems involved?) and REmounted. The people involved will never forget that story again .... Only afterwards they could laugh with it.
There is NO warm typical wood sound in that hall anymore, it sounds +/- completely neutral, the wood became part of the concrete walls and floor. I can't remember the numbers exactly but you are looking at MANY HUNDREDS of m2 of wood in that hall.
If you're speaking about a control room, with the amount of broadband absorption needed, makes this kind of discussions details.
It is mainly important for tracking rooms with high reverb (live to very live), where such things can get some relative importance related to the low overall absorption.
You can almost build it as you like. Hence wood paneling is OK.
If you mount wood causing them to absorb as panel/membrane dampers, then that's because you use them that manner introducing some physical absorption principles, not necessarily related to them being wood.
Jeff,
I know that rooms can have a more or less typical wood sound (often referred to as warm, and often partly psychological, often strongly related to mounting methods etc.). That's a matter of liking it or not.
Hence I do agree with your post, and shouldn't have intervened, if that misconception by Creature82 about hardwood having higher absorption (almost seen as some acoustic quality measure) shouldn't remain to exist.
Eric,
No worries, bro. I appreciate your contributions. Wood paneling finish is a funny thing. The differences between it and more "unnatural" finishes when it comes to how the room sounds are subtle at best. In my experience, I find that rooms with wood paneling do provide a subtle "warmth" to recordings that you simply cannot get from drywall or other finishes, all other things (e.g., room volume) being roughly equal. But I would stress that this is largely a matter of personal preference and is not based on any specific acoustical studies related to wood vs. other finishes.
As an example of this, listen to the first track, "Storybook," off my band's CD:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/rivetshack
(Please excuse the apparent plug. :oops: )
This track was recorded in a room with wood paneling walls, acoustical ceiling tile, and berber carpet floor; dimensions roughly 16'x12'x8'. (With no other "treatment" save for a couple of couches.) While I cannot provide an alternate version of the song recorded in a different room, I can assure you that, after experimenting and moving around recording gear to different rooms in my house (including the "usual", well-treated studio room), this room was specifically chosen for its "warm" sound. IMO, it comes across well on the track, giving the guitars the desired "rustic" sound I was looking for. For reference, all you hear was recorded with four mics; one Studio Projects close-mic on each guitarist/singer and a pair of Shure KSMs placed about 8-10 feet away and 6-7 feet high to capture the room ambience. Save for some compression, no effects were added.
And I agree with you 100% on the mounting having the most influence on any apparent differences in wood paneling absorption. This should not be ignored.
8)
Eric & Jeff -
Thank you both very much for your advice and insight. I think what I've gathered from this is:
- - There is not much sound absorption advantage to wood
- The sonic character of wood is slight, but may be subjectively pleasant
- The "warm" feeling may be largely psychological
- The mounting method makes a bigger audible difference than the wood
Wow. Nice to finally learn more about you, Jeff. --EthanAs an example of this, listen to the first track, "Storybook," off my band's CD:
Hi Lovecow, what kind of wood paneling warm up the sound? wood panels on studs 16" on center 20 on center 40 on center 10000000 on center? glue up to drywall? thin plywood spaced 1/4 inc from drywall ??...how tick the wood? 1/8, 1/4, 3/4, 5/8?? etc what kind of wood paneling you have in this room? P.S. also what kind of ceiling tile NRC 0.55, 0.70 etc .? glue up mount or drop ceiling? if drop ceiling , there is insulation behind the ceiling tiles and how much airspace? and there is wood paneling or drywall behind the ceiling tiles? and what about under the carpet... concrete? plywood ? airspace? insulation?Eric, No worries, bro. I appreciate your contributions. Wood paneling finish is a funny thing. The differences between it and more "unnatural" finishes when it comes to how the room sounds are subtle at best. In my experience, I find that rooms with wood paneling do provide a subtle "warmth" to recordings that you simply cannot get from drywall or other finishes, all other things (e.g., room volume) being roughly equal. But I would stress that this is largely a matter of personal preference and is not based on any specific acoustical studies related to wood vs. other finishes. As an example of this, listen to the first track, "Storybook," off my band's CD: http://cdbaby.com/cd/rivetshack (Please excuse the apparent plug. :oops: ) This track was recorded in a room with wood paneling walls, acoustical ceiling tile, and berber carpet floor; dimensions roughly 16'x12'x8'. (With no other "treatment" save for a couple of couches.) While I cannot provide an alternate version of the song recorded in a different room, I can assure you that, after experimenting and moving around recording gear to different rooms in my house (including the "usual", well-treated studio room), this room was specifically chosen for its "warm" sound. IMO, it comes across well on the track, giving the guitars the desired "rustic" sound I was looking for. For reference, all you hear was recorded with four mics; one Studio Projects close-mic on each guitarist/singer and a pair of Shure KSMs placed about 8-10 feet away and 6-7 feet high to capture the room ambience. Save for some compression, no effects were added. And I agree with you 100% on the mounting having the most influence on any apparent differences in wood paneling absorption. This should not be ignored. 8)
Jeff I'm glad with this apparent plug. Shows a bit another part of the Jeff I like and didn't know yet. Expands the picture a bit. :) Difficult question from B.R.D. no?As an example of this, listen to the first track, "Storybook," off my band's CD: http://cdbaby.com/cd/rivetshack (Please excuse the apparent plug. :oops: )
wordShows a bit another part of the Jeff I like and didn't know yet
The room had (may still have - previous home) 1/4" wood paneling on wood studs, 16" o.c., with 3.5" batt insulation between on three of four walls. (No insulation on fourth wall.) The paneling was that "1970s" style with the black seams between "panels" of various width; the kind my grandmother had in her basement - maybe yours, too :D. If I can find a picture later, I'll post it.Hi Lovecow, what kind of wood paneling warm up the sound? wood panels on studs 16" on center 20 on center 40 on center 10000000 on center? glue up to drywall? thin plywood spaced 1/4 inc from drywall ??...how tick the wood? 1/8, 1/4, 3/4, 5/8?? etc what kind of wood paneling you have in this room?
Don't know the NRC, but it wasn't very high - I would guess ~0.50; maybe less. They were 12" square tiles, 1/4" thick, nailed to furring strips over ceiling joists. Joists were filled (24"+) with insulation. (Attic above.) Carpet was berber over 1" carpet pad over plywood over uninsulated joists over crawlspace. Very bouncy. :) All the best,P.S. also what kind of ceiling tile NRC 0.55, 0.70 etc .? glue up mount or drop ceiling? if drop ceiling , there is insulation behind the ceiling tiles and how much airspace? and there is wood paneling or drywall behind the ceiling tiles? and what about under the carpet... concrete? plywood ? airspace? insulation?
thanks lovecow! this it's a joke right? :DThe room had (may still have - previous home) 1/4" wood paneling on wood studs, 16" o.c., with 3.5" batt insulation between on three of four walls. (No insulation on fourth wall.) The paneling was that "1970s" style with the black seams between "panels" of various width; the kind my grandmother had in her basement - maybe yours, too :D. If I can find a picture later, I'll post it.Hi Lovecow, what kind of wood paneling warm up the sound? wood panels on studs 16" on center 20 on center 40 on center 10000000 on center? glue up to drywall? thin plywood spaced 1/4 inc from drywall ??...how tick the wood? 1/8, 1/4, 3/4, 5/8?? etc what kind of wood paneling you have in this room?Don't know the NRC, but it wasn't very high - I would guess ~0.50; maybe less. They were 12" square tiles, 1/4" thick, nailed to furring strips over ceiling joists. Joists were filled (24"+) with insulation. (Attic above.) Carpet was berber over 1" carpet pad over plywood over uninsulated joists over crawlspace. Very bouncy. :) All the best,P.S. also what kind of ceiling tile NRC 0.55, 0.70 etc .? glue up mount or drop ceiling? if drop ceiling , there is insulation behind the ceiling tiles and how much airspace? and there is wood paneling or drywall behind the ceiling tiles? and what about under the carpet... concrete? plywood ? airspace? insulation?