Quietrock?

Hi, I'm in LA, moving into an office space where I'll be rebuilding the current interior walls. This is for a midi production studio. I don't often record live players so for the moment my main concern is the control room / midi production room (same all-in-one room). My budget is minimal at this point, though looking at th QUIETROCK website I'm considering purchasing their 525 drywall, based on their sound samples. http://www.quietsolution.com/html/quietrock.html (soundsamples beneath the chart). 525 comes at about $60 a sheet (ouch). My total office space is 1000 square feet, but the room I want to "soundproof" is about 360 square feet (and is within the other rooms). It seems one of the biggest alternatives to this approach is GREEN GLUE, with standard drywall layers, but compared to Quietrock 525 it's about the same price. I'm figuring that Quietrock will be easier for my contractor to work with also. One of the many things I'm unsure about, is that the Quietrock assembly example diagrams (except of course double wall installations) all include insulation packed inside the walls. Searches on this site indicate that interior AIRSPACE is needed within walls. Can anyone comment on this. (EG Quietrock single stud assembly with R-13 packed into the walls as opposed to Greenglue with 2 layers of 5/8 drywall with NO insulation placed inside). Can anyone comment on this? I can't afford to "SILENCE" the walls, but considering the rooms I'm rebuilding are already surrounded by my other rooms, I'd be happy to achieve what Quietrock claims 525 will do on their website. http://www.quietsolution.com/QRock525_dsheet.pdf (I know this site recommends against looking at STC ratings, but I am going by the mp3 sound samples that accompany these ratings on the Quietrock site). Also on this site I've searched and some say that because Quietrock is expensive, just use drywall instead because multilayers of it are STILL cheaper than QR. However, QR says that QR525 is equivelent to 8 sheets of drywall, so appears much easier to deal with and about the same price in the end. Another challenge is the ceilings (droptile)!! But that's probably another thread.

Just to add...please note I AM searching this topic. This is a big site with lots of info and I am trying to nail down info. The range of products and info is overwhelming especially as I am tight for time.

RobK wrote:

It seems one of the biggest alternatives to this approach is GREEN GLUE, with standard drywall layers, but compared to Quietrock 525 it's about the same price. I'm figuring that Quietrock will be easier for my contractor to work with also.

I disagree -- I think Green Glue would be easier to work with, once the instructions are understood. Be sure to carefully compare the lab reports between Green Glue to QuietRock. QuietRock emphasizes STC, but Green Glue is at the forefront of shedding light on the myth that STC is the "be all, end all" number to look for. Study Green Glue Company's Recording Studios and Home Theaters and Understanding STC, what it means and doesn't mean to understand why STC is a very misleading metric when it comes to reducing sound transmission in studio construction. Quiet Solution's marketing materials are focused on STC. Granted, Quiet Solution does publish the detailed third-party lab reports that show the full spectrum, but they'd just a soon you stay focused on the STC number because it's sexier. :roll:

RobK wrote:

One of the many things I'm unsure about, is that the Quietrock assembly example diagrams (except of course double wall installations) all include insulation packed inside the walls. Searches on this site indicate that interior AIRSPACE is needed within walls. Can anyone comment on this. (EG Quietrock single stud assembly with R-13 packed into the walls as opposed to Greenglue with 2 layers of 5/8 drywall with NO insulation placed inside).

Understand that most insulation is breatheable, so it counts as "air" in the "mass-air-mass" equation you read so much about here. Technically, complete fill of insulation is superior to an actual air pocket or a combination of air and insulation. However, it gets to be more expensive to do a complete fill, depending on the depth of the air gap, and the increased isolation relative to the cost can sometimes be negligible.

RobK wrote:

Also on this site I've searched and some say that because Quietrock is expensive, just use drywall instead because multilayers of it are STILL cheaper than QR. However, QR says that QR525 is equivelent to 8 sheets of drywall, so appears much easier to deal with and about the same price in the end.

I have a sample of that 525 stuff -- it's really thick! It's like two layers of 5/8" with a thin sheet of metal plus the constrained dampening layer substance. Cutting that stuff requires power tools! :x Beware of the "marketing claims" they make as you have to study the reports to know the truth behind the truth.

RobK wrote:

Another challenge is the ceilings (droptile)!! But that's probably another thread.

You bet it is -- in fact, you need to address the ceiling with as much vigor as the walls, because if you don't, your ceiling will be the "weakest link" in your isolation chain. Welcome to the forum -- I hope this info is some help to you as you continue to absorb stuff here. :) Resist the urge to just "get'r done" because you need to become sort of your own expert before embarking on the construction. --Keith :mrgreen:

RobK wrote:

Hi, I'm in LA, moving into an office space where I'll be rebuilding the current interior walls. This is for a midi production studio. I don't often record live players so for the moment my main concern is the control room / midi production room (same all-in-one room). My budget is minimal at this point, though looking at th QUIETROCK website I'm considering purchasing their 525 drywall, based on their sound samples. http://www.quietsolution.com/html/quietrock.html (soundsamples beneath the chart). 525 comes at about $60 a sheet (ouch). It seems one of the biggest alternatives to this approach is GREEN GLUE, with standard drywall layers, but compared to Quietrock 525 it's about the same price. I'm figuring that Quietrock will be easier for my contractor to work with also.

Rob, their product does perform - but not at to the extent that Green Glue does n the lower frequencies......... so if you look at what it takes (multiple sheets) of their product to acheive what Green Glue does - it is no longer the same cost.

One of the many things I'm unsure about, is that the Quietrock assembly example diagrams (except of course double wall installations) all include insulation packed inside the walls. Searches on this site indicate that interior AIRSPACE is needed within walls. Can anyone comment on this. (EG Quietrock single stud assembly with R-13 packed into the walls as opposed to Greenglue with 2 layers of 5/8 drywall with NO insulation placed inside). Can anyone comment on this? I can't afford to "SILENCE" the walls, but considering the rooms I'm rebuilding are already surrounded by my other rooms, I'd be happy to achieve what Quietrock claims 525 will do on their website. http://www.quietsolution.com/QRock525_dsheet.pdf

(I know this site recommends against looking at STC ratings, but I am going by the mp3 sound samples that accompany these ratings on the Quietrock site). You have your wirse crossed somehow...... insulation does enhance performance - and because of it's nature - it becomes a part of the air-space......... you use it with green glue to get the bestr results - and put it in both wals with double wall design. I don't know who here ever said anything to the contrary........

Also on this site I've searched and some say that because Quietrock is expensive, just use drywall instead because multilayers of it are STILL cheaper than QR. However, QR says that QR525 is equivelent to 8 sheets of drywall, so appears much easier to deal with and about the same price in the end.

I never saw that claim on their part - and that isn't true - you can acheive greater results with standard 5/8" drywall than you can with quietrock.

Another challenge is the ceilings (droptile)!! But that's probably another thread.

Probably not too much further - you have to do the ceiling layer first - so saving "understanding it" till the end doesn't make sense to me......... But - oh well - that's just me........... Rod

Hi Rod, Thanks for your response, this is all very helpful. I wasn't meaning saving the ceiling to the end, I was just looking at the walls for the moment before starting everything with the contractor. I'm very new to soundproofing techniques, but quickly realized from reading here and the net that NONE of the work put into soundproofing counts for anything if there is a weak link. Kinda makes each project like a big jigsaw puzzle where you need EVERY piece to finish the job. I see, though, that you're saying do the ceiling FIRST and then hear how it sounds? I do know there will be wall probelms too, is all. And door problems, and.... The claim about 1x525 Quietrock=8sheets of drywall is at the link I provided. Can you post a link to examples of drywall achieving greater results than quietrock (standard stud)? Gotta get that book too! I guess you might be meaning in combination with green glue? (Drywall = $10/sheet. Quietrock = $60/sheet. Worth a full investigation on my part of course!) With insulation I was incorrectly thinking that takes away airspace, but it seems what we're saying here is that is a TYPE of airspace (a better type!).

Hi Sharward, Thanks for your info and response. I really appreciate you and Rod writing back as you be the gurus in this neck of the woods! How is Green Glue easier when Quiet Rock 525 is advertized as being the same as a sheet of drywall to work with? You mention you have a sheet, I didn't realise how thick it is. Is that what makes it more difficult? Thing is, on their website, 525 instructional video shows someone using it just like drywall, scoring and breaking it as per usual (NO tools besides scoring required for 525. They do have heavier duty sheets (eg the THX one) that require other tools, but not the 525). The STC ratings are not what I was concerned about (numbers) but the sound of their mp3s. The one they describe in their 525 example is the SOUND I'd be OK with spending money and time on to get that result. Obviously I need to take another look at standard drywall / Green glue techniques to compare. I'm not "partial" to a product, just want the most cost effective etc., as I don't have a big budget on this, nor do I want to freak out the contractor too much. (BTW, any recommendations for a contractor in LA?)

RobK wrote:

The claim about 1x525 Quietrock=8sheets of drywall is at the link I provided. Can you post a link to examples of drywall achieving greater results than quietrock (standard stud)? Gotta get that book too! I guess you might be meaning in combination with green glue? (Drywall = $10/sheet. Quietrock = $60/sheet. Worth a full investigation on my part of course!)

Rob, you spend the energy reading thrugh the data - read IR761.pdf - you'll figure it out quickly. But - just for grins and giggles - look at assembly TestID TL-93-040 (page 124) - it's a metal stud wall - double layers of 13mm type x each face - with fluffy insulation in the wall cavity - STC 55......... versus their wall - let's see the cheapest one - metal studs - fluffy insulation - with their Quietrock on both sides - cost 60 bucks per sheet each side - STC 57 Standard construction using 1/2" type x drywall - STC 55 - costs 20 bucks each side for the drywall......... all things WOW - you can get a whole extra weighted 3db reduction by using their product - and it will only cost you an extra 80 bucks for every 4 feet of wall you construct and finish............ and it will all be in the higher frequencies where we already don't have a problem............ Not too tough for me to figure out............. :wink: Rod

Hi Rod, Believe me I'm very excited to hear that standard drywall could be the better answer!! I'll check out the pdf (found it through google, hard to find using the search here....wow 300+ pages!!) What I'm hoping to find is info on standard WOOD studs, non staggered construction. (What type of standard drywall /number of layers / greenglue required or not? etc to approach something like the STC 51 soundsample at quietrock's site. I actually really would like NOT to have to deal with purchasing quietrock! (A trip to Lowes confirmed that!!) (once again please note I am aiming for what their SOUND FILE EXAMPLES sound like, not the "STC" so much itself. Yes STC itself is only certain frequencies, but if their soundfiles are actually real recordings with the product, that's what I'd like to achieve). (EDIT...found the pdf....) According to that big pdf (which is fantastic by the way!), 2 sheets standard drywall BOTH sides still comes to only STC38. Where as Quietrock on one side only, with standard wood stud (non staggered), insulation, then one sheet of standard drywall = STC51. So, QR is more $$ but you get more with this standard, wood, non staggered construction. Factor in LABOR costs of extra layers of standard drywall and the $$ decreases, and it's still only STC38 at the moment in this example. HOWEVER, the very next example in the pdf illustrates STC 52 with only 1 sheet either side drywall, but this time using STEEL studs. Seems I need to find out how much steel stud construction would cost as opposed to wood (if my contractor even does this). (Or staggered wood, as later in that pdf reveals this can get me up to 50+). Thanks for the pdf, incredible resource!! (Again, STC might be meaningless, but we don't have mp3s for all of this!!)

RobK wrote:

What I'm hoping to find is info on standard WOOD studs, non staggered construction. (What type of standard drywall /number of layers / greenglue required or not? etc to approach something like the STC 51 soundsample at quietrock's site. I actually really would like NOT to have to deal with purchasing quietrock! (A trip to Lowes confirmed that!!) (once again please note I am aiming for what their SOUND FILE EXAMPLES sound like, not the "STC" so much itself. Yes STC itself is only certain frequencies, but if their soundfiles are actually real recordings with the product, that's what I'd like to achieve).

Rob, I have this real nice bridge in Brooklyn NY I wwant to sell to you......... it's been in the family for generations - but for someone like you i could make a special deal............. Stop and think about this for a minute......... each and everyone of these walls will attenuate sound differently - as a matter of fact - the same wall will - all you need are changes in humidity - changes in temerature - and the performance of a wall can change drastically. So in the real world- what happens in not necessarily what happens in a lab - Even in a lab - the same lab - they don't always produce the same results with exactly the same construction - read through the IR-761 introduction carefully and you should get it. If you are really set on single stud construction (dimensions are that tight in your room huh?) the you'll get the best bang with adding resilient channel into the mix.......... with double 5/8" each side - and 2x6 @ 24" centers - you can acheive an STC 60 - which will be somewhat like their STC 60............... Rod

Very nice indeed. Thanks Rod for your help, the pdf is especially, amazingly helpful. I bet the guys had a blast putting all those walls together, and covers all the "what if I tried THIS" scenarios. An amazing feat and I'm glad you pointed me to it. Staggered stud alone does wonders and that pdf shows it. Your bridge will have to go to some other lucky customer...

OK, for anyone else searching this topic and needing some answers I'm summing it up here: Quietrock (525, $60/sheet) info from their website: http://www.quietsolution.com/html/quietrock.html Standard Drywall ($10/sheet) construction pdf: http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/fulltext/ir761/ir761.pdf I am taking special note of STC ratings on these three pages: Page 20, standard stud with insulation, STC 33 Page 274 Staggered Stud with insulation STC 50 Page 337 Double Stud with space between, STC 59. Each of these is just a SINGLE layer of standard drywall on each side. Wow! Now I just need to weigh up construction cost comparisons (labor & materials) (awaiting this from my contractor. If anyone knows, evena ballpark figure / sq foot, please chime in (I'm in Los Angeles). Please be aware I have never dealt with ANY type of construction, EVER. I'm what you call, how you say it? A NEWBIE.

Don't forget about all the drywall (or 525) you have to cut off to fit onto the wall(depends on your dimensions). All that waste adds up to a significant dollar amount if you're using 525... I've got the equivalent of about 4 or 5 sheets of drywall in scrap pieces laying around. Which makes me glad I didn't spend $60/ sheet... ...the only reason I mention it is I have very little experience like you and that will eventually come around and bite you in the ass once you get started- haha :D Keep researching...

RobK wrote:

Your bridge will have to go to some other lucky customer...

Rob, tis ok - I'll sell it one of these days............ :wink: BTW - those aren't actual recordings of individual wall systems - but are really just the music being lowered in volume to show you what the difference would be if it worked like it should in the real world. Rod

RobK wrote:

Staggered stud alone does wonders and that pdf shows it.

...not nearly as much as separately framed (double frame) walls does. --Keith :mrgreen:

Thanks everyone, the info is great! Of course, this all doesn't mean much if I don't look at the ceiling, which is drop tile...of course!! Any sites out there with fake recordings of ceiling tile differences? Any pdf's with 300 examples of what to do with your OFFICE ceiling?! The QUICK answer to my main question on walls was really "don't go with quietrock, use staggered or even better, double stud walls with drywall and insulation. Any reasonably quick answers to drop ceilings? My sound generating room (midi studio) has other rooms of mine around it, which I will use for offices, chillouts etc. I'd like to isolate that room and a booth room next to it. (Sound going into MY surrounding rooms is OK, just want to keep it down for the office complex). This office of rooms is a downstairs end unit. Next door is NOT ever used so next door is OK. There's 3 feet of airspace (with insulated ducts etc) between the drop ceiling and the floor above. The wall extends between me and next door's office (the one that is not going to be used, it's full of machines for cingular). I can't drywall the ceiling, so, um, what should I do? Its a long and twisted road, researching this. I discovered MLV, then sites that say it's garbage, Quietrock, then realized drywall's fine with the correct installation, etc and so on. So, any suggestions would be appreciated even though I get the feeling you guys might be just thinking "ceiling tile? DOH!"

There's simply not enough information for us to answer your question with any level of confidence. The ceiling you have probably has lights and A/C ventilation, and perhaps even fire sprinklers -- right? If so, you've got lots of constraints. So far we haven't even seen a photograph of your space, let alone a floorplan or any level of detail we would need regarding the construction to provide any meaningful construction advice. This is a commercial space -- right? You'll have clients over -- right? If so, I'd suggest you get up to speed on ADA requirements or else you could be in for a world of hurt if you are ever victimized by one of those ever-increasing disabled access shakedown lawsuits that have ruined businesses, especially here in California. I would also urge you not to put too much weight (any?) in those recording samples. Those are marketing tools, and I might even go so far as to call them marketing ploys. Think about it: if I played such a recording on my computer with the volume turned up very loud, I would hear the "before" and "after" sounds pretty well... But if I played it with my volume turned down really low, I would probably hear the "before" and I wouldn't hear the "after" at all. What the heck kind of test is that? :roll: My advice: disregard the sound samples completely. I realize you're pressed for time, such that you probably think you can't afford the time to produce the level of detailed information that we're asking for. Trust me -- you can't afford not to. ;-) Details-details-details. They're key. If you only ask: "How do I get to point B?" We need to then answer "Well, that depends on where you are, which is point 'A.' Where are you?" Or we waste precious time trying to come up with all the possible point "A"s and describing the paths from those respective starting points. Then we do so, only you might come back with, "But I'm not driving a car, I'm riding a bicycle!" to which we respond, "Take the mountain pass and you'll be fine." But you might come back with, "But we're doing the ride in January -- won't the pass be closed due to snow?" On the other hand, if you say, "I'm trying to plan a daylong ten speed bicycle route from point 'A' to point 'B' for a ride in January..." we might tell you, "Take the long highway around the mountain, and bring plenty of water!" See where I'm going with this? Not sharing enough detail will cause you trouble and stress and may waste the time of the contributors. Please also edit your profile to include your location. Yes, you did include your location in your first sentence in this thread, but this thread could grow to many pages, but it's the first and foremost item in the "BEFORE YOU POST, YOU MUST READ AND FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS" announcement thread. Might be worth another read. ;-) --Keith :mrgreen:

Thanks Sharward. Just so you guys know, I don't consider the time you've spent answering my wall questions as wasted at all. I understand your points fully about my space and lack of details, and the futility of going deeper (thus the guidelines as outlined), but I have learned a mountain of info from this brief thread. Please note I did find this info HARD to find until Rod and you pointed me the right way. I certainly don't wish to take any more time from you, so until I can adhere to the guidelines of posting here, I'll opt out. My appologies, I do understand I did not follow the guidelines. Again, thanks. Just wanted you to know that whilst this thread approached a level frustration for you, I found it very helpful and I really appreciated everyone's answers and for looking at my questions. :)

No frustration at all, RobK -- we just want to ensure you don't get frustrated! :-) I'm glad this has been helpful to you so far. Don't keep us hangin'! We're interested in the outcome of your project. 8) --Keith :mrgreen: