Basement Combination Room Construction Under Way

Those are the ones Cram. Wow, Brad's project turned out great! Thanks.

billshoup wrote:

I casually mentioned this to my brother who has been a residential building contractor in our area for 30 years. As you probably know, the value of a moisture barrier (at least in our climate in SD) is controversial, and there is no code concerning the use or non-use of it here. Apparently my brother has studied this to a degree, and is apparently currently of the opinion that it is better to allow a wall to breath (at least in our climate). My understanding is the concern is "if any moisture ever gets in there, you want it to be able to dry out". I actually thought about asking him more about the theory behind this idea in anticipation of the very question you ask.

I'd go with the brother. ;) In general water vapor moves from the warm side of building assemblies to the cold side. You would think this alone would place all you cats in frigid environments on the vapor barrier priority list. But it does not, who knew? Well, yer brother knew, but, nevermind... "No assembly constructed in Climate Zone 4, 5, 6 or 7 requires a Class I vapor retarder (i.e. a polyethylene vapor barrier). " SD is in zone 6 according to the BSC: http://www.buildingscienceconsulting.co ... Design.pdf I'll go back to sleep now...

Well xSpace, I tell you I think there are still more basements being constructed around here that have moisture barriers than don't, probably by a fairly wide margin. So I would say it'd be a stretch to say that "a moisture barrier is not needed" is generally accepted around here. Good to see your documentation agreeing with the idea of not needing one however! :D Thanks again for your concern, and making me feel even more comfortable with that decision. :thu:

Least I could do Bill. I was the one that brought it up. Thanks again, be seein' ya. Brien

Hi All, I got the first layer of sheetrock up on a small outside wall this weekend. I've never done any taping/mudding before, so I'm kind of experimenting on this first layer that will eventually be hidden so I can try to determine whether I think I want to tackle the finish work on the final layer or hire it done. The real reason for this post though is to share my acoustic caulk (acoustical sealant) experience. I've been using Grabber and have been very happy with it. As I've probably mentioned a few times, my brother is a building contractor and I was talking to him about my project. I probably mentioned to him how many cases of caulk I've gone through - as many of you know, beef-up work really eats it up. Anyway, he told me he had 4 cases of acoustic caulk left over from a job from something like 3 years ago that he was sure he would never use and wanted to know if I wanted to try it. Of course I jumped at the chance. I should have asked him to check what kind it was before I took it. It is Tremco, and of course when I got the sheetrock up I was describing above I tore into my free caulk, without taking time to do a quick search on this site. Now I remember folks complaining on this site about the odor from their caulk, which I could not relate to while using Grabber. They also talked about having to take mineral spirits in the shower with them to get the caulk off their hands, which I also could not relate to. With the Grabber caulk, I mostly wash off my hands and tools in a bucket of room temperature water in the basement with no soap. I don't know if Grabber comes in other colors, but the stuff I'm using is white, which I like. Grabber is a latex based product and to me it's very similar to working with silicone. I've also read about folks getting the caulk all over their house, which hasn't been an issue with Grabber. The Tremco product on the other hand is a lot like tar. It stinks, is incredibly sticky, and basically is just a total pain to work with. The stuff I have is dark grey (basically black) and I've got spots on my carpet after I was sure I had totally cleaned myself up, and there are some spots in our bathtub that I still need to work on to get off. I scrubbed (and scrubbed and scrubbed) my hands with Comet cleanser to get it off, and ended up throwing away the caulking tools (including my caulk gun) I used with that caulk. I've been paying around $55/case for the Grabber caulk so the Tremco my brother gave me represents around $220 I could save by using it, but after one session with that stuff, I'm going back to buying more Grabber. I'm not sure how it will perform in years to come compared to the Tremco, but IMHO, there is absolutely no comparison in regard to "ease of application", and I'm very thankful I stumbled across the Grabber when I was looking for caulk. I hope sharing this experience might save someone else from having to go through it. Between these two brands, my advice is to go with Grabber! I guess I should mention that I'm assuming that the fact that the Tremco caulk I have is around 3 years old isn't part of the issue. By the way, I'm planning to dispose of these cases of Tremco, but will probably keep them around for a little while in case anyone reading this is willing to deal with this stuff to save a few bucks. I believe I have 2 tubes short of 4 cases (28 oz tubes/12 tubes per case, so about 46 tubes total) that I would sell for $50 total + shipping if you're interested (if so PM me). Obviously I'm not recommending this stuff! :x (UPDATE: The Tremco caulk has been sold, so is no longer available)

Hi All, Well, the summer is almost gone, and the Tremco caulk is now a distant memory. :D I've finally finished the first layer of sheetrock, in fact last weekend I rented a drywall lift to do the second (and final) layer on the ceiling which I finished up, but before I started I thought I should take a few pictures for an update. Again, these pictures are from before I did the second layer on the ceiling. You'll probably think that for the first layer I went a little crazy with the mudding. The biggest reason I did this, as I've mentioned before, is because I'm a taping and mudding rookie and mostly used this as practice for the real thing on the final layer. Here's a description of the pictures: From Outside - This is a view from outside the room, where we'll enter from the yet to be finished part of the basement. Just Inside - Just inside the entry door. Closet - To refresh your memory, my wife insisted this expensive room be sellable as a bedroom when we sell the house, so here is a view of the dreaded closet, which should be handy for storing cases, etc. Utility Room - This view is looking back out toward the door we came in, where you can see the other two doorways that will provide access to the utilities, as well as likely the weak link in isolation from this noisy area. Reverse - Just to the left of the entry door is the most severely low overhead area. Cross Section - This is a shot of the doorway where all 4 pieces of drywall are finally in place. To the left of this wall is the utility room, to the right is the studio space. You can see the RC to the right of the 2 X 4. By using 1" screws through the first layer into the RC and 1 5/8" screws through the second layer into the RC, you can see that this allows the screws to penetrate the RC, but still avoid the framing, even when the screws are in-line with the framing. Good advice from this forum and worked like a charm as far as I can tell. Slow but sure progress. I hope it isn't so long before the next update. As always your comments, advice, and encouragement are welcome. Thanks all!

Very nice work, you have neighbours?? How good has the Insulation worked so far regarding Sound Proofing?? Regards, Roberto

I should mention that the basement is on one end of our house, we have no backyard neighbors, and the closest neighbor on the “basement end” is 75 feet away. Although I have not taken db readings outside, I’ve never had any complaints, and when I go outside and listen with music loudly playing, even now, it doesn’t appear to be a problem, so I’m not concerned about reducing the sound leakage to the outside world.

Hi Roberto, Thank you! Above is a quote from the 1st page of my post explaining the situation with our neighbors. I should also mention that we have a (man made) waterfall in our back yard that generates a lot of water noise, and which I think might mask some of the sound as far as the neighbors are concerned. Since I still have no doors installed into the space, it's difficult to evaluate isolation to the rest of the house, although I have noticed that the sound from our family room (which is the next room and also serves as our home theater) has been greatly reduced already. I hope that answers your question.

Oops sorry about that I skip that part I guess!! Very nice project my friend! Regards, Roberto

No problem Roberto - it's my project, and I still had to really look to find that part on the 1st page! :D I am very anxious to see how the isolation turns out once I finish the drywalling and put the doors in. I am concerned that the doors will still be the weak link for isolation, especially with the utilities (furnace, water softener and water heater) just on the other side of the doors. Thanks for your interest! :D

Any updates Bill? Doors maybe?

Hi Audixium, Good to hear from you. I hope your project is going well. I'm afraid the thin mountain air must be getting to you however if you think at my slow pace I'd have doors up by now! :D Actually I took my family to Orlando last week which of course has slowed things down, but that's really just an excuse. I will say that I'm glad we got back home before the weather hit down there this week, however. Anyway, I'm almost halfway done with getting the second layer of sheetrock up on the walls. You may remember that the second layer is up on the ceiling. It's probably too bad I don't have to rent a lift to do the walls as it would put more pressure on me to get the walls done over a weekend to save rent on the lift! I did take a few pictures of how I handled the electrical boxes however, so I'll take this opportunity to post them. As you may remember, the boxes I'm using are adjustable, which I found really handy. Before I explain the pictures I should mention, yes, I had the electricity off to these boxes while I was doing all this. Studio Outlets 1 - This picture shows an outlet with the first layer of sheetrock installed. Man, I obviously did a poor job of cutting the sheetrock around the box on this particular one. Studio Outlets 2 - Since this was the first layer of sheetrock, I adjusted the screw on the box to move it out from the first layer by 5/8". Actually I measured this by pressing a scrap piece of sheetrock next to the box and adjusted the box out until it was even with the edge of the scrap piece. Studio Outlets 3 - Next I added backer rod and caulk to the gap around the box to get a good seal Studio Outlets 4 - Finally this picture shows the second layer of sheetrock in place and the box caulked the second time. Don't know if this is the best way to go about this process, but that's how I did it. Time to get in some more sheetrock. Thanks Audixium for prompting me for an update. Not a very exciting update I'm afraid, but it's nice to know somebody's watching!

Hi Gang, I'm overdue for major update (from my perspective anyway), so I hope to get that done within a few days, but for now, I've created a thread in the acoustics forum here to ask for some input on treating my room. More coming soon...

Hi All, Here's the update I promised. Since last time: 1) Put up second layer of drywall inside room. 2) Taped and mudded (my first attempt at this and a LONG haul it was) 3) Primed drywall 4) Painted 1st coat 5) Painted 2nd coat 6) Painted 3rd coat (enough with the painting, already...) 7) Put painter's putty in hollow sills of exterior doors 8) Installed doors (yes finally Audixium!) 9) Put insulation, backer rod and caulked between doors and walls - I've only done this on the inside of the studio so far. Still need to do on the other sides of the doors. 10) Installed laminate flooring. So far I'm happy with the isolation. It's not perfect, but I think it will do well to meet my needs. To my ears as expected, it appears the doors are probably the weak link, although I'm pretty happy with them. As I mentioned, I've got more insulating and caulking to do on them, and I suppose the trim might help a little. I may consider trying to improve the seals later on, but I'm afraid that might be beyond what the door itself is capable of. But again, at this point, I'm very happy with the level of isolation. Next on the list: TRIM (trim out window, closet door jamb, mop boards and trim around doors and window. After that I hope to test the room with REW and start building bass traps. Now for the fun stuff! Here's the pictures: I look forward to your comments. Also, check out my tentative plans for acoustic treatment for this room here and let me know what you think. Thanks!!!!!

Looking great Bill! The color is very similar to the color I chose for my control room although it may be a bit brighter than what I chose. I love the floor, and overall, you have a great thing going, even with the "dreaded closet"!

Thanks James - that means a lot coming from you, as you know how much I admire your work. To tell you the truth, I think your control room color was part of my inspiration, since your room looks so great. With all the treatment you keep adding to your CR, it makes me think maybe all the rockwool I'm looking at jamming into my room might not be overkill after all! :-) It was great seeing another update from you, although I still need to find the time to study it thoroughly. Great to see the place in action! Congratulations!! Thanks again for the kind words! :D :D

Bill - just checking in to see if you've made any more progress. I like the colors too - very good combination with the floor.

great update, Bill!!

Hey Audixium, Good to hear from you my friend. Hey, while I have your attention, I looked for your build over on the AVS forum and don't think I ever found it. Do you have a thread going for your project over there, and if so could you point me to it? Yes, actually for the most part my build was finished up around the first of the year. I've been mostly upgrading software and gear since then. Recently I've been working with my nephew who is a graphic designer on the east coast on a poster for the studio which I'll consider to be one of the final touches, then I plan to try to do my wrap-up on this thread. Before I forget, I did document some of my treatment process here in case your are interested. It's great to have the space done and available for action! :yahoo: It's been an adjustment not to immediately have my mind go to "what do I need for the studio" whenever I go into a home improvement store with my wife. :lol: I've been gigging so much recently that I haven't got too much recording done yet, except for demos of arrangements I've worked with a couple of groups on (lay out an arrangement myself for demonstration purposes), but the space has worked great when I need to work on anything at home. For my purposes the isolation is performing well. The ventilation (leakage, not air noise) and doors have been the weak spots, as you might expect, but I am pleased. I have considered adding Rod's trunk rubber to the doors, but I'm happy enough with how things are, that I doubt I will ever take that step. I certainly hope to get the final updates done within a few weeks. Thanks for asking, and please let me know how your project is going. :D

Ro wrote:

great update, Bill!!

Hey, thanks Ro! :D Actually I've been feeling a little guilty that I haven't gotten another one done, considering, the priceless information, advice and support I've gotten off this site, but hopefully it will be coming very soon! :D :D

No worries, Bill. Just keep them pix comming and you'll keep us poor ppl happy :)

Hi All, As I mentioned earlier, I've been working with my nephew Bryan who is a graphic artist on the "final touch" for my studio which is the poster below. I couldn't keep myself from sharing it with you when he sent me the final proof. I highly recommend him for graphic work and/or web design - he's a wonderful guy. Check him out at http://www.graphicshoup.com.

Bill - sorry, I don't hang out here as much as I should! I just now saw your update and the other thread. Too bad you have crickets over there :( . I'd love to see pics of the finished, treated space.

Hey Erik, I was hoping to get the poster up before doing the final update, but when I dropped it off at the framers this weekend, they said "maybe" they'd have it done by the end of the month. Geez! :roll: I guess since I did the entire rest of the build myself I should have tried framing the poster myself as well! Regardless, hope to get an update done soon. Sorry for the delay. Crickets - I assume you mean no input from the faithfuls. Yeah, I guess I need to feel comfortable doing a "No one has any comments/thoughts???" bump sometimes. :)

Hi All, At long last, these may be my final updates. I think I will begin with a few notes on how I did my bass traps, actually perhaps more on how I hung them than how I made them. To build them, I roughly followed studio_drums plans here which I highly recommend. In my case, I used 4 lb density rock wool (2' X 4' X 4”). I used 1 X 4's for the frames rather than 1 X 3's, and I wrapped the rock wool in garbage bags before wrapping them in burlap. I did this for two reasons; 1) I didn't want particles of rock wool floating around, and 2) to have the panels absorb a little less at high frequencies. I was a little nervous about whether this was the correct thing to do, but for my purposes (and to my limited knowledge of acoustics) it's appeared to work fine. You can judge for yourself based on the measurements I made here, and please, I encourage you to make comments reacting to what you see there. Now, in regard to hanging the traps, on the walls, I mostly used the old picture hanging wire technique. For those mounted on the wall, I put 4” cardboard cylinders behind them to space them away from the wall (in an effort to lower the frequencies they would absorb). In my case, the greater challenge was how to mount the treatment on the ceiling with two layers of 5/8” sheetrock on RC1. I finally settled on the d-rings I found here, attached to the ceiling with wall-dog sheetrock screws. In my particular case, this has worked out very well even though the d-rings were quite expense. For the free standing/portable bass traps, I added a cross-bar to the frame (which I also did for the frames where I used the cardboard cylinders behind them on the wall) and mounted them to tripod mic stands. I hope this info is useful to someone out there. I would be happy to answer any questions about any of this if you're interested. I will do another post in regard to the finished studio in general ASAP.