Holick Pro Build Phase - 90% Completed

I am starting with a 23' 4" x 15' 4" with 11' 8" ceilings, sloping to 8' on two sides. This studio will be used to record mainly one instrument at a time, but I would also like to try to record several people at once also. The walls are sheetrock over studs with OSB on the exterior. The floor is plywood (3/4" i think). I will probably cover them with hardwood laminate flooring. Location is in the country with no close houses or worries of planes, trains, or automobiles. Budget is very, very flexible - several thousand...the main concern being things are done correctly. I have 18 2'x4'x2" absorbers already made from my old studio to use so I would like to be able to reuse them, and I also have 6 2'x8'x4" bass traps to reuse. I have 6 2x2 diffusers to use. Basically, I am open to any suggestion for layouts and ideas, knowing the best ideas are going to come from the replies I receive on this site. Thank you.

Aloha, In Rod Gervais’ book “Build it Like the Pros,” http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5670 he points out both L.W.Sepmeyer’s & M.M. Louden’s formulas most widely used in professional studios worldwide. He also notes that the orders listed are (top to bottom) the first to third best ratios in both cases. L.W. Sepmeyer Height Width Length 1.00 1.14 1.39 M.M. Louden Height Width Length 1.00 1.40 1.90 Eric Desart on Louden’s Ratios http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=#64490 1.00, 1.35, 1.85 8’ x 10’8” x 14’8” Perhaps something like this to begin with? (Live room treatments to be addressed next) Aloha 8)

This design looks good and I dont see any problems. Could you post the sketchup file so I could analyze all the dimensions? What are you thinking for the tracking room?

Aloha,

What are you thinking for the tracking room?

That depends on you and the kind of work flow you prefer. :wink: Would you prefer to have the "one big room" approach or a "vocal booth/drum booth" approach? Aloha 8)

I prefer the one, bigger room approach. Are the angled walls slat resonators or just a standard studded and sheetrocked wall? If they are slat resonators, how should I go about determining the correct gap?

Aloha,

I prefer the one, bigger room approach.

Okay, cool. 8)

Are the angled walls slat resonators or just a standard studded and sheetrocked wall?

They are slat resonators.

If they are slat resonators, how should I go about determining the correct gap?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the term "gap," however, the slat resonators in the control room are angled 6.0 degrees each and the live room ones are angled about 7.5 degrees each. Here's an updated skp file. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

Sorry for not being very detailed. I was replying from a blackberry. I will have high speed internet at my house tomorrow so I will be able to communicate better. By gap I meant spacing between the slats. Will measurements need to be taken after the basic rooms are built to determine the frequency to which the slat resonators are tuned? Thanks for everything so far. Joe.

Aloha,

By gap I meant spacing between the slats.

From John's Wall units page -

2 x 1, 3 x 1 and 4 x 1 slats alternating with gaps varying from 1/4" to 1/2". http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm

Will measurements need to be taken after the basic rooms are built to determine the frequency to which the slat resonators are tuned?

The slat resonators are broadband absorbers. If I remember reading this correctly from somewhere around here, start with the slat resonators and corner bass traps first. Then (if necessary or preferred) run an audio test, build and add tuned resonators to treat problem freqs still present in your room. I would recommend using the search function to locate and verify the above info and any other steps that might be pertinent. Aloha 8)

Excellent. Thank you. My biggest issue right now is the exterior door. I like the floor pan you have drawn, so I may just move the door over several feet which will open directly into the live room. I don't know if you opened up the skp file uploaded, but the door is centered on the long wall. Which puts it opening directly on to the walls seperating the CR and LR. I did not mention this earlier because I decided I would just move the door over, but if you have any other suggestions feel free to suggest. Will the floor cause any acoustical problems? My old studio had concrete floors so it was very solid. This room has plywood over 2x? Which seams like resonates very easily. Thanks again.excuse the errors, typing from a blackberry. Joe.

Aloha,

My biggest issue right now is the exterior door. I like the floor pan you have drawn, so I may just move the door over several feet which will open directly into the live room. I don't know if you opened up the skp file uploaded, but the door is centered on the long wall. Which puts it opening directly on to the walls seperating the CR and LR. I did not mention this earlier because I decided I would just move the door over, but if you have any other suggestions feel free to suggest.

If you are willing and able to relocate the door, I agree that it would be a better location :wink: One thing nice about opening into the live room is that you can avoid have musicians carting drums/amps/etc through the control room and potentially scuffing up and/or damaging any of the control room furniture/equipment.

Will the floor cause any acoustical problems? My old studio had concrete floors so it was very solid. This room has plywood over 2x? Which seams like resonates very easily.

Is the room up off the ground on post/piers, and if so, how high? Are you able to post a couple of pics of the floor construction? It would really help to get a better idea of what you're working with. Thanks!

Thanks again.excuse the errors, typing from a blackberry.

No worries! :D I'm working from a desktop and I am still missing things and misspelling wyrds. :lol: Aloha 8)

Okay. I took some pictures of the floor (and the building just for the heck of it). 2x6's with 3/4" plywood sitting on blocks. I leveled it up today with jacks and I will need to put in some type of footing or piers. Question - I have reposted a picture of the blueprint with a couple notes. Okay, I don't quite understand. Here is what I am thinking, Wall A will be built floor to ceiling with 2x4s staggered 2'x4' spacing for insulation with sheetrock sealed air tight to the backside of the studs. Slats will then be placed on the live room side over the studs to make a slat resonator. This may be totally wrong. Should I just build a standard wall and then build a modular resonator to fix upon that? Or, would the acoustics of the room suffer if that wall was treated with several 2'x4' absorbers, diffusers, and corner bass traps rather than the slat resonator? If this would be okay, this is the direction I would like to take probably. Now Slat Resonator A, is this a modular unit that will be fixed to Wall A? Or is there a second wall built to provide better isolation, and the resonator is attatched to it. I am assuming it is just one wall there, Wall A. THANK YOU!

Aloha, Cool building :wink:

Okay, I don't quite understand. Here is what I am thinking, Wall A will be built floor to ceiling with 2x4s staggered 2'x4' spacing for insulation with Sheetrock sealed air tight to the backside of the studs. Slats will then be placed on the live room side over the studs to make a slat resonator. This may be totally wrong. Should I just build a standard wall and then build a modular resonator to fix upon that? Or, would the acoustics of the room suffer if that wall was treated with several 2'x4' absorbers, diffusers, and corner bass traps rather than the slat resonator? If this would be okay, this is the direction I would like to take probably.

Wall A is indeed floor to ceiling, 2x4's 16" OC construction with insulation between studs (3" rock wool @ 2.5 pcf). To save space, you could use John's "inside out" design which would be (left to right): 2 layers 3/4" sheet rock (seams staggered and caulked) 2x4 studs w/insulation, 2x1, 3x1, 4x1 slats alternating with gaps varying 1/4" - 1/2".

Should I just build a standard wall and then build a modular resonator to fix upon that? Or, would the acoustics of the room suffer if that wall was treated with several 2'x4' absorbers, diffusers, and corner bass traps rather than the slat resonator? If this would be okay, this is the direction I would like to take probably.

Wall A (which includes a viewing window, btw) could be treated with absorbers, as long as the other walls are angled similar to what is indicated to eliminate parallel surfaces. In a room this size, I would not recommend diffusers.

Now Slat Resonator A, is this a modular unit that will be fixed to Wall A? Or is there a second wall built to provide better isolation, and the resonator is attached to it. I am assuming it is just one wall there, Wall A.

Slat Resonator A was intended as a second wall, depending on your isolation requirements between the control room and live room and if your budget allows. This would be a mirror image construction of Wall A, but with slats. If done as such I would add a layer of insulation between the two walls. You may also want to consider some cloud absorbers to break up the floor/ceiling reflections. Taking a quick look at your exterior, perhaps you could caulk the existing exterior layer and beef up with 2nd layer of 3/4" ply siding. Your floor may resonate at some point/frequency. This is common with wooden floor over joist construction. Depending on how high you intend to block the building, if its possible to insulate between joists and then ply sheath that would be great. If not, then you could beef up the interior sub floor with 1 layer 3/4" MDF and then 1 layer of 3/4" ply, overlapping seams and caulking. Finally, here are a couple more views of the design. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

Thanks for the much needed info kendale...I am understanding now. Couple more questions - Would putting in a couple sliding glass doors instead of windows cause any serious acoustical problems? Could it possibly confuse stereo imagining due to lack of (acoustical) symettry? Secondly, why do you not recommend diffusion in a smaller room? I think I understand in my head but for you to clear it up would be great, and by no means am I disagreeing! Just curious! Thanks!

Aloha,

Would putting in a couple sliding glass doors instead of windows cause any serious acoustical problems? Could it possibly confuse stereo imagining due to lack of (acoustical) symmetry?

Yes, you could. Many of John's designs have included double sliding glass doors. If you mirror the left/right angled walls in the control room 6-12 degrees each, you should have a minimum to no problems, as long as your have sufficient absorption in the rear of the control room. If you like, I could redraw your room with a set of sliding glass doors instead of the viewing window/standard door. Door links - http://www.overly.com/door/index.cfm?curPage=acoustical http://www.doors-ambico.com/news/wood_doors_stc50.asp http://www.doors-ambico.com/news/pair_door.asp http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/prod ... l_kits.asp http://www.industrialacoustics.com/usa/ ... /index.asp

Secondly, why do you not recommend diffusion in a smaller room?

It has been stated (somewhere around here) that diffusion introduces comb filtering, and if your mix position is in close proximity to it, it may color/alter your perception of your soundstage and subsequent adjustments to eq/levels. If I can find the thread, I'll post it for you. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

Excellent...thanks. I love it when things come together. Construction will probably begin Monday and thanks to you, I can build with confidence. Just when you have a chance, it would be helpful to have a updated SKP file with a sliding door. THANK YOU!

Aloha,

Many of John's designs have included double sliding glass doors. If you mirror the left/right angled walls in the control room 6-12 degrees each, you should have a minimum to no problems, as long as your have sufficient absorption in the rear of the control room.

If I may reiterate the left/right angled walls at least 12 degrees each, you'll have better results with redirecting the reflections of the glass surfaces behind you. :wink: Here are a couple more views and the revised skp file. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

kendale wrote:

Aloha,

Many of John's designs have included double sliding glass doors. If you mirror the left/right angled walls in the control room 6-12 degrees each, you should have a minimum to no problems, as long as your have sufficient absorption in the rear of the control room.

If I may reiterate the left/right angled walls at least 12 degrees each, you'll have better results with redirecting the reflections of the glass surfaces behind you. :wink: Here are a couple more views and the revised skp file. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

12 Degrees each? For a combined angle of 24? The blueprint measures 6 degrees on one wall and 7 on the other for 13 degrees. Is this correct? Should I make them both 6? Or should I make them both a whopping 12? :shock: I was thinking of mounting rigid fiberglass directly to the ceiling of the whole building. Do you suppose this would make it to dry? As of right now there is no insulation on the ceiling. I need something that I can mount on a sloped ceiling. Maybe a picture would help?

Aloha,

12 Degrees each? For a combined angle of 24? The blueprint measures 6 degrees on one wall and 7 on the other for 13 degrees. Is this correct? Should I make them both 6? Or should I make them both a whopping 12?

The skp file wall angles were drawn at and should have been 6 degrees each. Note that this is not a blueprint but rather, a design concept. The 12 degrees were mentioned because of the comment

Would putting in a couple sliding glass doors instead of windows cause any serious acoustical problems? Could it possibly confuse stereo imagining due to lack of (acoustical) symmetry?

and pertained mostly to the area of early reflections, and with the idea of "If you can afford to make the angle bigger..." Out here in Hawaii there is a saying; "If can, can...if no can, no can." The space available and budget issues inevitably figure into consideration, as well as work flow and visual/aesthetic preferences. If both side walls are angled to the same degree (6/6, 7/7, 9/9, 12/12, etc.), you would still retain the symmetry aspect of the front side wall design. Here's an excerpt from the SAE website -

So the first thing you must do is eradicate all the parallel walls in a studio design. I believe that a wall must be at least 12 degrees off parallel to stop parallel wall standing wave interference. That's either one wall at 12 degrees or two walls at 6 degrees each. If you can afford to make the angle bigger, do so. Also you can create angled walls within a rectangular room by adding acoustic treatment. John Sayers http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html

I was thinking of mounting rigid fiberglass directly to the ceiling of the whole building. Do you suppose this would make it to dry? As of right now there is no insulation on the ceiling. I need something that I can mount on a sloped ceiling. Maybe a picture would help?

Yes, picture/s would be very helpful in understanding the intent of your question! Are you describing the mass-air-mass portion of the construction or the acoustic treatments? Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

Okay, here are a couple pics. One is the ceiling how it is now, the other is with one (poorly) photoshopped piece of insulation inserted. Center to center on the trusses is 24 inches so a piece of 703 would fit nicely with a little trimming, but expensive. Roxul makes a rigid fiberglass also if I am not mistaken at close to half the price. What thickness, if this seems like a good idea would be ideal? I could make fabric covered panels to go between the trusses also if that would be neccesarry. What is the type of insulation you see at resturaunts exposed, screwed directly to the ceiling? It's black at the local chilis. That would look nice, because I am going to be painting the trusses black also. I posted a pic of the 3/4" MDF going down on the floor - IT HAS BEGUN! :)

Another thing I have been pondering... I am wanting to make the slat resonator walls as simply as possible, yet I want everything to look absolutely great... if you can believe that :lol: Would it be operational or visually pleasing to have a 1/4" to 1/2" gap accross the bottom of the floor, or does this for some reason need to be sealed, or am I missing something? I uploaded a pic, the area labeled question area could just be a 1/4" to 1/2" gap, correct? Would it look better or hurt anything to trim the bottom leaving no gap? And in that case, is it better to leave a gap between your first slat and attatch the trim to the slat, or leave a space large enough for the trim to fit completely under the first slat and attatch it directly to the studs, or maybe 12" of drywall from the floor up...OH THE OPTIONS!?

chances are the bottom 2x4 plate of the wall covers the opening (so its already "sealed") so you could extend the bottom slat to hide it or add baseboard trim, etc... whatever finish works for you.

Thanks Glenn... That is kind of what I had figured, but wanted to be sure. I have all the 3/4" MDF and 3/4" Plywood installed on the floor. It made a huge improvement in the solidness of the sound and feel. It cost right at 648 dollars for a 24' by 16' room (just for anyone who might be trying to come up with a estimate for making thier floor more solid). I plan on putting laminate flooring or hardwood flooring down. Any advantages over one or the other? I was reading on the Lowe's website and they say the Armstrong Swiftlock sits on a subfloor that helps with soundproofing...anybody know anything about this? Tomorrow I will start framing the walls.

very good. not sure the swiftlock will do much for sound proofing but if its in your budget and looks good then it probably is good... remember to layout everything using tape first :-) when framing the walls - remember the 12 degrees on each wall, and also, remember the doorway can sit mostly past the mix position seat to avoid reflections and still enable you to see into the other room - some of the door position depends in the space to put it in and view angles, but in Kendale's design it looks like you could move it back about 2-3' more (and extending the 12 degree wall accordingly.)

The main wall is up with 2 layers of 5/8" sheetrock caulked and staggered seams. Any ideas on the insulation on the ceiling? Would it be too dry if the entire ceiling was covered with 705? Check the picture a few posts back to see what I am talking about.

i wouldn't cover the entire ceiling, just run a set of absorbers up on the middle ridge (hanging down a 1' or so) to add trapping there. you can always add more later if you need to.