Hi, I posted another thread looking for a consultant. I've mailed so many and they seem not to get back to me. I've already paid one for a consultation but he's busy when I need to get this done.
Attached is the plan he sent me.
I have decided I would like to have the desk sideways to the live room rather than how it is drawn. With this done would there be space for a vocal booth? What kind of lengh do I need behind me ideally when monitoring?
The floor to ceiling height is 12ft before I put a floating floor in. My current booth is mdf layers and transmits noise when I have a heavy on the pedal kick drummer in. I've only had one complaint but would like to know the minimum rockwool needed to dampen this. I'd like to keep as much floor to ceiling height as possible to get a nice drum sound. Both the floor and ceiling are 12inches thick concrete. I have neighbours above and below and all around me.
Thanks for any help.
The room measurements as it stands are 26ft and a few inches. 315inches not sure what that is in ft.
by 19ft.
I'm aiming to be fairly loud and record bands in my live room.
Not sure how much space can be given up to the live room before making the mix room un useable.
Thank you :)
Help with design
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 9291.
here is the file you can download a larger version of.
Not sure if this query should be in the constructions forum. I was torn...
Aloha and welcome to the forum,
You are in the right place. :D
A couple of excerpts to consider:
the first thing you must do is eradicate all the parallel walls in a studio design. I believe that a wall must be at least 12 degrees off parallel to stop parallel wall standing wave interference. That's either one wall at 12 degrees or two walls at 6 degrees each. If you can afford to make the angle bigger, do so. Also you can create angled walls within a rectangular room by adding acoustic treatment. http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html
That said, could you provide some info that would be helpful for us: - what is the overall dimensions of the space you have available? - What is your ceiling height? - How large a band do you intend to record at one time? Looking forward to your build, Aloha 8)because you don't want rear reflections to interfere it is better to start with a longer front to back dimension than the side to side dimension. http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html
Hi Ken, thanks for the response. The overall space is 26ft 3 inches by 19ft. The floor to ceiling height is 12ft. I'd like to be able to record a 5 piece band if possible, an orchestra would be nice but prob not going to happen :) . I guess I'm going to have to become familiar with these skeching programs. Thanks :)Aloha and welcome to the forum, You are in the right place. :D A couple of excerpts to consider:the first thing you must do is eradicate all the parallel walls in a studio design. I believe that a wall must be at least 12 degrees off parallel to stop parallel wall standing wave interference. That's either one wall at 12 degrees or two walls at 6 degrees each. If you can afford to make the angle bigger, do so. Also you can create angled walls within a rectangular room by adding acoustic treatment. http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.htmlThat said, could you provide some info that would be helpful for us: - what is the overall dimensions of the space you have available? - What is your ceiling height? - How large a band do you intend to record at one time? Looking forward to your build, Aloha 8)because you don't want rear reflections to interfere it is better to start with a longer front to back dimension than the side to side dimension. http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html
Aloha,
In Rod Gervais’ book “Build it Like the Pros,” http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5670 he points out both L.W.Sepmeyer’s & M.M. Louden’s formulas most widely used in professional studios worldwide. He also notes that the orders listed are (top to bottom) the first to third best ratios in both cases.
L.W. Sepmeyer
Height Width Length
1.00 1.14 1.39 12’ x 13’7” x 16’7” or 11’ x 12’5” x 15’3”
1.00 1.28 1.54
1.00 1.60 2.33
M.M. Louden
Height Width Length
1.00 1.40 1.90 12’ x 16’8” x 22’8”
1.00 1.30 1.90
1.00 1.50 2.10
Eric Desart on Louden’s Ratios
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=#64490
1.00, 1.35, 1.85 12’ x 16’2” x 22’2”
Here are a couple of views using L. W. Sepmeyer's 1.00 1.14 1.39 ratios @ 11’ x 12’5” x 15’3”. and again @ 12’ x 13’7” x 16’7”.
Aloha 8)
Hello Ken :)
I hope you have some templates and those didn't take you ages cos that would take me months to draw with my lack of skills at the mo! :shock:
Thank you very much for taking the time.
I was planning on having the live room a fair bit bigger than the mix room.
Would that be possible or is what you have done the best according to the maths? I'm not sure how to work out ratios myself and Modecalc that Etahn W makes is for PC.
I also forgot to take in to account the walls I build. The room I have will need some soundproofing both to protect my neighbours and to keep sound out. I'm guessing each wall dimentions will have to have 12 inches taken off to cater for the wall I'm gonna build.
Thanks again,
Duncan
Hello Ken :)
I hope you have some templates and those didn't take you ages cos that would take me months to draw with my lack of skills at the mo! :shock:
Thank you very much for taking the time.
I was planning on having the live room a fair bit bigger than the mix room.
Would that be possible or is what you have done the best according to the maths? I'm not sure how to work out ratios myself and Modecalc that Etahn W makes is for PC.
I also forgot to take in to account the walls I build. The room I have will need some soundproofing both to protect my neighbours and to keep sound out. I'm guessing each wall dimention will have to have 12 inches taken off to cater for the wall I'm gonna build.
Thanks again,
Duncan
Also the existing doors are right in the bloody corners of the room!
Thanks,
Duncan
Aloha,
No worries. :wink:Thank you very much for taking the time.
If we were to make the ceiling for the control room lower, we can also scale down the overall dimensions proportionately. However, here are a few things to consider:I was planning on having the live room a fair bit bigger than the mix room. Would that be possible or is what you have done the best according to the maths?
So what size should a control room be? These days people are building bigger and bigger control rooms because so much happens in the control room now. Often the bass player and keyboard player actually sit in the control room. I often have the vocalist singing in the control room while the bed tracks go down, so a good size control room is a good idea. So many people think that you need a big studio and end up putting a poky little room at the end and call it a control room. I suggest that a control room ideally should be at least 6m x 5m with a minimum ceiling height of 2.4m. This size room means a good sized working area with space for the musos, friends and hangers on. Also because you don't want rear reflections to interfere it is better to start with a longer front to back dimension than the side to side dimension. i.e. 6m x 5m. The studio, on the other hand, requires a different set of considerations. The first to consider is do you want just one room or more? The trend nowadays is for more than one studio so the you can get isolation between players and different acoustics for each room. The acoustics you want for a live drum sound is totally different than you want for a vocal for example. I recommend at least 2 rooms. You can put drums in one, guitars in the other, keys , vocals and bass (DI) in the control room or maybe the band in one and the vocalist in the other. Getting separation between guitars and drums is usually OK in a good sized room but keeping them out of the vocal track is hard if they are all in the same room. Just a note here - the kitchen is an important room to consider. Gallons of coffee and tea are drunk in studios. An engineer was once asked - how do you normally have your coffee? "Cold with a fly in it !! "- was the reply. Also a kitchen allows for a fridge for the beer and a microwave for the pizza, vital ingredients in every album recording session. Toilets (bathrooms for you in the US) are also a vital service a studio should offer. The coffee and beer has to go somewhere. http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html
The Mass-Air-Mass principle is what is prescribed on this forum to achieve isolation. Depending on what your outer layer is, it could look something like this: outer layer (plywood/brick/concrete) - air space with with insulation - 2-3 layers of drywall/plasterboard/Sheetrock. The interior space is then acoustically treated with bass traps, absorbers, resonators, etc. (adding even more dimension to factor in.)I also forgot to take in to account the walls I build. The room I have will need some soundproofing both to protect my neighbours and to keep sound out. I'm guessing each wall dimention will have to have 12 inches taken off to cater for the wall I'm gonna build.
See below So, a few more questions: - What/how is the outer layer constructed? - Is the 26'3" x 19' dimensions stated earlier the actual floor space or the outside perimeter measurements? - Do you have the option to relocate the doors? Aloha 8)Also the existing doors are right in the bloody corners of the room!
The outerwalls are brick. The measurements pertain to the inside wall to wall. The doors are built in a very solid brick and I probably would not get permission to move them. :(- What/how is the outer layer constructed? - Is the 26'3" x 19' dimensions stated earlier the actual floor space or the outside perimeter measurements? - Do you have the option to relocate the doors?
One of the things I should have mentioned is that I intended the live room to double as a rehearsal room to bring in extra revenue in my empty days. So if I understand you, in order to make the control room smaller I should consider lowering the ceiling? I actually have a false ceiling in at the moment which I was going to take down. The floor to ceiling space as it stands now is 10ft. Perhaps I could leave that section as it is. Thank you Duncan [/quote]If we were to make the ceiling for the control room lower, we can also scale down the overall dimensions proportionately.
Aloha,
Cool. This is good.The outer walls are brick.
Cool.The measurements pertain to the inside wall to wall.
Okay, we'll see what we can do to work around them.The doors are built in a very solid brick and I probably would not get permission to move them.
The false ceiling is going to create some isolation issues. You could either seal off the control room ceiling and create a storage area above the control room, or frame the control room all the way up to the actual ceiling above and then hang a series of bass hangers/traps in that area. Let me push a couple of ideas around to see what we might come up with. Aloha 8)So if I understand you, in order to make the control room smaller I should consider lowering the ceiling? I actually have a false ceiling in at the moment which I was going to take down. The floor to ceiling space as it stands now is 10ft. Perhaps I could leave that section as it is.
Aloha,
Making some progress on a new layout, but we need to determine where your doors are located. Do you have some accurate measurements of their location?
Aloha 8)
Aloha,
Prelim of latest sketch. Live room treatments yet to be placed.
Aloha 8)
Hi Ken,
It's amazing you are giving me all this help :).
I'm so grateful!!
I'm thinkin on the prelim that the space by the door is perhaps being wasted. I wouldn't mind doing something like that if it was to include a vocal booth or something but each extra door is also gonna cost. I was wondering if I did something like the plan I posted the room would be too narrow for me to monitor if I was sitting to the side rather than facing the live room.
Thanks again
Duncan
Aloha,
Reorienting your original plan to fire down the length of the room is a step in the right direction, but it places the door in the wrong place, regardless of which wall you face, as well as still not (at least trying to) optimize the starting point of the room's modal response.
I think placing a vocal booth there is a better idea. :wink:
Aloha 8)
Hey Ken,
That's pretty cool.
I've made the mistake of missing out so many important details :oops: Both door open inwards. Not really sure what to do bout that. Maybe I can change the way they open. What can I do about the modal response? The live room seems a workable size now. Would it be best to have the desk facing the opposite direction so that any noise from the monitors doesn't get through to the mic in the vox room or would that be worse? What height should I set the control room ceiling with the new dimentions and where do we go from here? Enjoy your weekend Thank you, DuncanReorienting your original plan to fire down the length of the room is a step in the right direction, but it places the door in the wrong place, regardless of which wall you face, as well as still not (at least trying to) optimize the starting point of the room's modal response.
Aloha,
Which way the door opens is up to you, but having them swing out will save you a little space, especially in the vocal booth area.Both door open inwards. Not really sure what to do bout that. Maybe I can change the way they open.
Using the ratios mentioned should bring you into the ballpark and give you a good starting point. Proper acoustic treatments will then help fine tune the room.What can I do about the modal response?
Cool. :DThe live room seems a workable size now.
One benefit of facing the vocal booth is visual contact with your vocalist. If done properly, you should be able to isolate the vocal mic from the monitor volume. One could conceivably lower the control room volume if there is too much bleed into the vocal booth.Would it be best to have the desk facing the opposite direction so that any noise from the monitors doesn't get through to the mic in the vox room or would that be worse?
The room dimensions are 8’ x 9’1’ x 11’1”, and with proper treatments you should be able to obtain a good sounding control environment. As an added design point, angling the ceiling upwards of 12 degrees or so will help reduce early reflections at the mix position, as would a set of cloud absorbers.What height should I set the control room ceiling with the new dimentions
If you're satisfied with design phase, you could begin to look at the building codes in your area, an architect to draft you a working set of plans (that meet code) a material list and cost and perhaps a GC to implement the plan if you choose not to DIY. If I may suggest http://www.johnlsayers.com/Pages/Promo.htm for further design, a working set of plans and further consultation. :wink:and where do we go from here?