Steel Buildings

Hello All, I'm going to be putting up a new garage to replace the old rotten termite infested one. It will eventually be where I build my studio. Friends tell me to check out the steel building kits. Are these usable as an outside shell? I would be building separate rooms within this structure. Most of the music I do is either folk or blues/rock type, not too loud (except maybe an overzealous guitar player). The neighbors are about 100ft from the back of the garage and 500ft from the front. I do not need complete sound isolation. Are these buildings even worth looking at for what I want to do? I hope I have provided enough information. Thanks, Ken Tukar Studio

See bumpy silver's "beefing up thin exterior steel walls" thread, which also links to jal's "starting totally from scratch" thread. Both cover steel buildings as a conceptual starting point, and the consensus is that it's not a good way to go. --Keith :mrgreen:

Hey Keith, Thanks for the links, it's just what I was looking for. Stacked block..... now that sounds interesting. Ken

construction continues ! Despite the frowns from some forum readers/writers I am slowly adding mass to the thin skinned outer steel walls of my project structure...on a slab...... Started with "blackboard" heavily glued to skin interior. Adding 2 layers of sheetrock, also heavily glued, and with caulking is really making these walls better. External(traffic) noises now sound like they are coming from other areas, not where added mass is located. Thanks to the forum members who suggested this, seems to be working ! Going up about 11feet... Next comes interior wall w/airspace, "room within a room" concept....one thing else about steel buildings, they are HOT to work in.....can't wait to start insulating. Main studio space should have about 16' height, and 20l x 23w (app) ..Control room about 20'l x 15.6 w w/ 9-11' ceiling. Nice big rooms, heavily built and insulated......Would have loved to have constructed this post and beam "log cabin style" but just couldn't make that happen. Tons o' fun !

I'm constructing a home/studio inside of a steel building. It's probably not ideal, but it's working. Unfortunately, I didn't find this forum until the well into the project. It is an existing building, but had I seen the forum I would have altered the exterior wall structure, possibly much like you have. However, I didn't and I'm using the normal techniques for building walls and such. So far it's working. Maybe not as well as it could, but it is working. :) Fortunately, I am in a fairly quiet area in the country anyway, and my needs are not what others' are here regarding live drums in a residential area. :D My thinking is that if it becomes a problem I will beef up the exterior of the walls. There are a few options out there that I can think of that likely won't cost a fortune. Good luck and keep us apprised. Scott

sharward wrote:

See bumpy silver's "beefing up thin exterior steel walls" thread, which also links to jal's "starting totally from scratch" thread. Both cover steel buildings as a conceptual starting point, and the consensus is that it's not a good way to go. --Keith :mrgreen:

Keith - I must have missed those......... Not a good way to go?????? hmmmmm........... I guess I will have to see what they have to say........ But I personally have had very VERY good luck susing a metal building as a starting point........... As a matter of fact that 15,000 s.f. moview studio I did was a modified steel building project........... Not modifed after it was built - but rather we began with a steel shell design - and then modified that to acheive what we wanted from the beginning......... What this means is that we got a metal building that does look like a metl building outside - but has some of the best isolation in the movie industry on the inside........... So I dunno bout that......... Rod

I'm intrigued! Can you share more information about how you modified the structure/design? "Multiple isolated slabs" perhaps? Might there be a corridor surrounding the entire perimeter, acting as a "cone of silence" over and around the entire studio or something? Funny how "facts" change around here over time as more experts have the opportunity to chime in. :-) I remember how back in 2003 and 2004, it was all about floating decks here! :roll: ;-) --Keith :mrgreen:

Keith, I agree. I could swear that I had read several opinions about steel buildings not being good starting points for studios. :? Again, I would have beefed up the outer wall had I known then what I know now. Fortunately, I have only done the control room and the office. I can still make up for the mistake when I get to the recording space. :D Rod: I'm real curious as to what you did in the studio you are talking about. Any hints? Scott

Wow thanks for the replies ! Yes Rod, give us some details, the more info I have the better. If I were to buy a kit then I could possibly modify things a little. Do you think the "Bumpy Method" is a viable alternative Bumpy, is the cost of beefing up the walls still going to keep the cost under what a wood frame building would cost? Thanks for the input. Ken

Yep, Rod Can you give more? I can imagine that for a huge and high building you start from industrial steel-building principles. But I have the feeling there are different things talked about in this thread. The garage sized stuff of TukarStudio, in steel most likely just a light corogated single outer steel sheet of 0.6 to 0.75 mm doesn't sound to me like the best starting point either. If it rains on it, it sounds like ...... Within the context of this thread I should not advice steel, but against. I do have experience with steel (industrial acoustics). Not the word steel is defining but the complete concept. Rod, should you advice steel within the context of this thread?

Eric_Desart wrote:

I can imagine that for a huge and high building you start from industrial steel-building principles. The garage sized stuff of TukarStudio, in steel most likely just a light corogated single outer steel sheet of 0.6 to 0.75 mm doesn't sound to me like the best starting point either.

I suppose that I need to point out that mine is an industrial steel building. It never occured to me that there were lighter weight construction steels out there. These buildings are so common in this area that I assumed industrial steel was what was being discussed. Scott

plus6vu wrote:

Eric_Desart wrote:

I can imagine that for a huge and high building you start from industrial steel-building principles. The garage sized stuff of TukarStudio, in steel most likely just a light corogated single outer steel sheet of 0.6 to 0.75 mm doesn't sound to me like the best starting point either.

I suppose that I need to point out that mine is an industrial steel building. It never occured to me that there were lighter weight construction steels out there. These buildings are so common in this area that I assumed industrial steel was what was being discussed. Scott

Scott, What's the definition of industrial steel? How thick do you think the galva, pre-painted or skin-coated sheet is used on the out and inside of these steel buildings? 0.63 mm to 0.75 mm is a standard for outside. That material goes from roughly 0.6 mm to 1.2 mm, the latter which are already heavy executions for larger span-widths or higher loads. The inside skin of the building is often thinner than the outside. The walls and roof of such types of buildings get their strength trough the designs (profiling) of this corrugated steel and the shape and profiling of the inner boxes. The whole idea is based on the fact that one can easily roll-form steel sheet (even pre-painted or pre-coated) to give it strength by it's shape in function of span-width and load, with very thin sheet. The design makes them mainly strong, not the steel thickness (plays part of it of course). American standards may deviate somewhat with imperial measures. Corrugated steel has also very strange looking TL curves, since it has an extreme broad coincidence range, defined by the stiffness, and which is asymmetric in function of direction. If I made a comment about this, is because I know about it. Wall Panels Inside structural liner trays can have a bit thicker steel sheets, but still thin stuff. Roof panels If interested you can have a look to the above links and browse through this site, to have an idea about corrugated steel, finishes and thicknesses for industrial steel building. There are more of these producers of course, since you find these kind of factories world-wide.

I don't have a problem with steel sheds as a starting point. In Australia they solve our two major problems. 1. Termites. 2. Bush fires. Just don't treat the outer surface as a skin. It has no mass and is not airtight so there is NO mass - air - mass layer. If you insulate it , as Eric suggested to cut rain noise, and line it totally with firecheck drywall you will then have a decent outer skin for a room within room construction that is termite and fireproof. They are also cheap. cheers john

Scott, What's the definition of industrial steel? How thick do you think the galva, pre-painted or skin-coated sheet is used on the out and inside of these steel buildings? 0.63 mm to 0.75 mm is a standard for outside.

The walls and roof of such types of buildings get their strength trough the designs (profiling) of this corrugated steel and the shape and profiling of the inner boxes. The whole idea is based on the fact that one can easily roll-form steel sheet (even pre-painted or pre-coated) to give it strength by it's shape in function of span-width and load, with very thin sheet. The design makes them mainly strong, not the steel thickness (plays part of it of course).

If I made a comment about this, is because I know about it.

What you are saying is pretty much the way it is here. I'm certainly not disagreeing with you on anything. I was simply clarifying what I have. It appeared from what I was reading that there was some lighter materials out there and that was what Ken may have been dealing with. I simply wanted readers to know where I was coming from. As I posted previously several times, maybe you missed them, I would have beefed up the outer walls significantly had I found this forum earlier. Also, since my project is still not finished and I can easily right some mistakes in it, I am waiting for Rod to chime back in and tell us what he did with the project that he referred to. I will also say that one thing that I have found good about the steel building construction method is that besides being inexpensive, one can quickly erect the outer building and make it secure so that one can store materials, have work space for the construction and start the interior build easily. It has enabled me to take whatever time I need to do the interior, since the outer walls are finished, insulated and protecting the interior from the elements. If I were to build one of these from scratch (I purchased mine already built) I would make sure to leave a brick ledge on the outside in case it was necessary to brick the outside. Even that could be extended if one wanted to use blocks instead of brick. That is one of my options here. I thought that if more isolation is needed I would pour a ledge and brick the outside. Of course, using the necessary techniques. Also, as I have said, my needs are not what others are here. I am in a pretty quiet place and I do not at present or the foreseeable future record live drums. So I do not need 60+ db of attenuation. Scott

I am not talking the cheap - buy it at home despot (or wall mart) - sheds - but rather commercial steel structures - constructed using columns/beams @ 20 to 50' centers, structural purlins - that are typically shelled using blanket type insulation installed outside of the purlins - with a steel skin then installed over that, If you begin with that type of a structure (understanding that everything you do beyond that point HAS TO BE a part of the structural design as well)- you can construct the basic frame - infill the outside of the building (between the purlins( with rigid structural steel framing - sheath the building with multiple layers of 5/8"exterior grade gypsum sheathing (I am speaking about densglas here) - cover the metal deck roof with 4 to 6" of lightweight concrete - on the inside of the building add additioanl purlins (on 10' centers) - well inboard of the exterior members - utilizing rubber isolators to break flanking connections to the steeel columns - install hat channels running vertically - then skining this with multiple layers of drywall - liberal use of insulation within the cavity is recommended - in the case of the movie studio i constructed - the cavity was 18"to 24" (depending onlocation) with 6" of therma fiber insulation installed in the outer steel stud frame - and an additional 6" of insulation installed inboard of that, leaving a 6" open air cavity. The concept for this particular building was a very rigid exterior wall assembly - with a very floppy interior face (hat channels supported on 10' centers makes for a very floppy wall. the buiding exterior is then finished with standard steel siding - take special care at roof to wall junctures - making this air tight is doable - but a challenge none the less - Inside - below the roof - steel netting supported 24" of fiberglass insulation - plus another 2" of rigid insulation - and the walls were covered n their entirety with 2" of rigid insulation. Remember - this was a 15,000 s.f. movie studio - 40' clear to the underside of trusses - 50' clear to underside of roof/ the room has a fantastic sound - but is dead enough to make moie shoots work....... Bands love to use this space to prepare for world tours due to the clear height - which is perfect to practice hanging their show - as well as the room sound for the band's practice sessions...... For recording studios this would have to be well thought out to imcorporate the room within a room concept - but could worl perfectly well....... We have had shootsin side the studio with clean power provided by huge portable generators sitting just outside the building - and no noise problems within........ and yes - those units are noisy when they're fire up...... Steven Speilburg told me that this was the only movie stduio he had ever shot in that he did not have to re-dub any of the audio - and it sits 100 yeards from a very busy highway........... one that has a ow of lf rumble from big rigs taking off due to the fact that there are weighing stations sitting immediately to the left and right of the site........ So it can be done - very effectively - but it costs a whole lot of money to do it right. Rod

Rod, Very, very cool. And interesting. I can't say that I would/could go those lengths, nor that I need to for what I do. But thank you very much for your post. I have never heard of "exterior grade gypsum sheathing". Could you refer to a manufacturer or source? I find that very interesting and a possible option for the future. I was thinking maybe stucco or brick, but gypsum sounds much easier to work with. Also, what is "lightweight concrete"? How light are we talking about? I would have to check my structure to see if it would hold the weight, but that sounds like a good option for the roof, if that becomes necessary. Even a smaller amount (less than 3 inches) would be beneficial, I'm guessing. Thanks again! Scott

That's so awesome, Rod! OK - consider me corrected! I shall no longer state categoricallt that steel buildings are not suitable for studio construction. I'll clarify in future posts that standard inexpensive steel buildings are probably not the best choice if isolation to/from outside is critical without making substantial changes. --Keith :mrgreen:

Densglas is manufactured by Georgia Pacific - and i san excelllent exterior gypsum sheathing - in fact we just shelled a 21 story building with it on my last project........ here's a link: http://www.gp.com/build/product.aspx?pid=4674 They also manufacture a structural gypsum decking material (densdeck) which ws yused on that project as well. As far as the lightweight concrete goes - it isn't all that lightweight - although it runs about 40 pcf lighter than standard concrete - but structural lightweight still runs abut 140 to 150 pcf - so it's not to be taken lightly (pun intended) :oops: Understand - as I said - this was a complete design before any steel was manufactured - it was not an easy project to pull off - and it would have been much more difficult working with just any old steel building after the fact.......... There are also a lot of details that i have not provided due to the fact that I did sign a non-disclosure agreement as to the details of the project..... so what I have described is just sort of brushing the surface as it were....... The type of things that most people could surmise just by observing the building very VERY carefully - Rod

Thanks Rod, I completely understand the non-disclosure. Just having another direction to go is very valuable. Thanks for the source. Fortunately, as I've said many times, my needs are a bit limited compared to others, but I am willing to do all that I can afford to make improvements in my design/construction. Scott

Sure is a hot time to be working in a steel structure. Hadn't planned on putting a studio in this space, was to be used as workshop. Once we got the hang of it, the building went up FAST. (a couple of weekends... about this time last year.) Did have to rent a couple of manlifts to get up 21 ft....Building also arrived in many pieces, but PREPAINTED. This particular project needed a slab and 120cuyds of fill under it...that was time consuming. Started looking at interior space, and especially ceiling height and got to thinkin about how tuff a drum kit would sound in there...Then discovered this wonderful forum and realized I JUST HAD TO MAKE THIS SPACE SOMETHING TO PLAY AND RECORD MUSIC IN....especially after looking at some of the other completed project pix here.......(Won't know for some time if this structure will really be much cheaper than traditional construction)Lumber is ungodly expensive from what it was just a few years ago.......Purlins in structure are on 4' centers, so cutting down drywall is just a matter of some trimming and lots o' glue...then leaning heavy objects up against the section to TIGHTLY adhere each layer of stuff to the next one.. .this is kind of slow going, but its gettin' done....the increase in mass is real cool."definite audible difference/improvement"..again, thanks to this forum for that suggestion......and finding out about Rods book.........bumpy

bumpy silver wrote:

. . . cutting down drywall is just a matter of some trimming and lots o' glue...then leaning heavy objects up against the section to TIGHTLY adhere each layer of stuff to the next one..

You're using adhesive to hold drywall up? :shock: Is that kosher? Will that be safe? Yes, I'll say it -- is that to code? :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

Wow! ALL the big guns came out on this one. Thanks for the great discussion everyone. Rod, sounds good, if only I had a movie studio budget. John, So if I beef up the outer skin with drywall (and seal) and figure out a way to put a layer of insulation against it, I might expect a reasonable amount of isolation? I have also found a company that has one model I can just order the frame and put any kind of skin on it I want to. Now if I can only get a contractor or two to call me back I can get estimates on a traditional wood structure and start comparing costs. Has anyone else had problems with contractors calling back about estimates? Are there any secrets to finding a good contractor? Thanks, Ken

bumpy silver wrote:

and lots o' glue...then leaning heavy objects up against the section to TIGHTLY adhere each layer of stuff to the next one.. .this is kind of slow going, but its gettin' done....the increase in mass is real cool."definite audible difference/improvement"..again, thanks to this forum for that suggestion......and finding out about Rods book.........bumpy

bumpy, I have no idea who in this forum suggested that you glue layers together - but it sure wasn't me........... You loose isolation that way - at least comared to what you get if you DON"T gllue layers together....... IT is nmore than just the mass - re--read page 79 in the book - bottom paragraph. And aside from that - Keith is right - you shoud never rely on adhesive alone with any wall application - that just isn't safe....... Rod

TukarStudio wrote:

Has anyone else had problems with contractors calling back about estimates? Are there any secrets to finding a good contractor?

It's hard to get good, reliable, experienced, reasonably affordable contractors to take interest in relatively small jobs like the ones that are common on this forum, especially in a strong economy. Case in point: I had a heck of a time finding a concrete contractor who was willing to work with me on my terms (which were really reasonable: "Be licensed by the State Contractors' License Board, be insured, have no employees or carry workers' compensation insurance, return my calls, let me do what I can myself to save costs, and in return I'll be very accommodating with your schedule"). I finally found a great one via someone I knew who has years of experience working as a manager for a large residential builder in the area. My advice: talk to as many people as you can who have had work done on the same scale as what you want to have done, find out who did their work, and whether or not they were completely satisfied. "Word of mouth" referrals are the best advertising. When I'm happy with the service of a company, I tell gobs of people. (The same is true when the opposite occurs! :evil:) Be aware that there seems to be an inverse relationship between contractors who appear to be hungry for your business and contractors who actually deserve your business! :evil: If that weren't the case, I suspect more of us would be hiring people to do our projects for us! ;-) --Keith :mrgreen: