Audio Grotto - 2 CR design

Hello all.... I have been working and thinking about this design for over a year now but have become stagnant with new ideas. I am getting closer to the start of construction and want to put this out there for some fresh ideas on layout. This is the basement of a church building that I bought and have been renovating ever since :shock: :? :oops: :evil: :twisted: :roll: Can you say money pit?? Really though I love the building and it is turning out great. We are putting apartments on the upper two floors over the basement where the studio will go. I have a whole list of stuff in the next post but wanted to get the basic idea out there first. Here's the design. It might be hard to see but there are three dag gone poles in the middle that support 15" I beams above and the rest of the building so I don't think they can move. The lounge and bathroom are in another section of the basement that has a raised floor so I don't want to use that area for the studio. I'll post the skp file as well. Need to purge some stuff from it through, a tad big..... Gulfo to the rescue!!! thanks, ashley PS Here's a link to the skp file as it is too big for the list. Audio Grotto Sketchup Filehttp://audiogrotto.com/studio_build/AGrotto2-06min.skp

Here comes the bla bla bla...... Studio Specs and Needs: 1. isolation for full drum kit and reasonable guitar amplifier volumes -Who doesn't want a punk band tracking full out at 3am? My tenant might not but I would like to be able to. Two layers of 5/8 with green glue, could it do it? We also plan on living here in a few years and isolation will be less of a concern but might as well get it right the first time. 2-NC rating low enough for decent foley recording. NC20 maybe??? -I'm probably more interested in NOT hearing everyone around me than they are about not hearing me. In any event, movie work is part of my business. I need a pretty quiet main room for foley work. 3-two controls rooms: one likely larger than the other -This is terribly important for me as I need more versatility. I also want to have many others coming in and networking here at the studio. The second CR can be smaller so I can offer it for more budget sessions. I still want a good sounding room but just maybe not as accommodating for the full posse hang out, y'know? The larger one will also have a composition station that takes up some more room. I want to have a comfortable amount of space here. this is it for me, final working space for many, many years. 4-5.1 capacity for film mixing -has to be the real deal for TV and film mixing. I'd love to get certified for THX or Dolby someday. 5-central computer machine room to be shared by both control rooms -another key issue for me, the system is going to be modular and interchangeable. I want to be able to switch computers and workstations between control rooms by simply patching monitors, screens, and other stuff in the machine room. This will also extend to the recording rooms as well. I have a large Sanctuary room that I would like to easily patch a system into to track bands in the room, mix films on a big screen and who know what else. Versatility.... 6-large booth -the current one I have in the design is around 11'x11' or so. Anything smaller tends to sound unnatural on vocals. I'd rather have one big booth that two small ones. 7-larger main recording room -I want to have a more live zone and a deader zone with variable acoustic panels all around. The room is long in the current design in order to get a whole band in there but still with some usable isolation and distance. 8-quiet HVAC w/fresh air, single system, heat pump with gas backup -this is the conundrum of mammoth proportions. Getting the ductwork in there while preserving ceiling height, isolation needs and adequate air flow is going to be like dancing the tango with all the beams and joists around in there. The fire rating is an issue here. If the ducts are above the fire rated partition, I need fire dampers in all penetrations of the fire wall. They can cost a bit but the cost of doing a separate firewall above the rooms loses a whole bunch of ceiling height. A tricky balance.... 9-fire rated construction separated from above apartment there is a residential apartment above the basement. Its a very beefy construction already but I am required to have a fire rated separation between the commercial and residential spaces. this basically means two layers of 5/8 Type X gyp sealed everywhere. 10-AC on single phase of service for audio gear, star grounding -got lucky here as when we changed the service over on the building and added the two others for the apartments, a new triple meter base was installed and separate ground and neutral wires were run from each box and only connected together at the service panel outside. This helps with a star ground concept as all the grounds in the building meet at the service panel. Just putting the grounds on their own rod in the panel should suffice for a star ground. Home runs for each box though.... 11-some natural light -I really would like to put some glass block in the walls where the windows are to let a bit o nature in as I've worked too many years in dark caves and its just not very good for my complexion anymore :) 12-max ceiling height, as close to original 9' as possible -I guess obvious but its just going to be tricky. I would consider metal ceiling joists that have a better load capacity with less height than wood. Not sure what's the best. 13-separate entrances for each control room and direct access to recording rooms. -Some sessions need privacy and to be professional, we need separate entrances for each control room from the shared kitchen/lounge area. Also, each control room needs direct access to the recording rooms without bothering the other CR. I have used the central machine room to do this in the current design. I dont' want any hallways if I can avoid it, wasted space. Site Conditions: 1-turn-of-century church basement 2-on well travelled urban two lane street between two stop signs, ,25mph, bad mufflers galore! 3-fieldstone and concrete foundation, rises 5 feet above ground level 4-concrete slab 5-many windows around perimeter 6-separate staircase from outside to basement Twiddly Bits: 1- I dont' want to float. Can't cut the slab either. Just gotta do the best with a solid slab. also, the concrete will be the finished floor of the studio. Stain and seal it, done. 2- Beams ain't movin'. Poles neither..... They're 15" I beams and they're holding up the whole building. 3- The kitchen/lounge is on the other side of another beam from the original 1895 part of the building. I can't really use any of that space for the studio. Plus, it up over a foot from the floor level of the rest of the basement. 4- I have a contact at the local LaFarge drywall plant. They are starting up the new line of gyp material and the first runs usually have a ton of different stuff in them (fiberglass, extra stuff) as they perfect the formula (ie They're denser than the final production formula). I am hoping to get a couple hundred sheets of this stuff as it will be denser than any drywall out there for the 5/8 thickness. Will make the loading needs of the ceiling higher though. 5-Budget: 40K US or so. It will have to take place over time and I will be able to frame, run electric, drywall etc... but will need crew for many of the heavy lifting tasks. The main expense is the HVAC system and ductwork. It has to go in first and cannot be done by myself or put on a credit card :). 10K would be max on the system. Once that's in, the rest can come slowly if needed. But I am not naive in this. We over doubled our budget for the apartments upstairs. They're great but holy moly does the cash just get up and run out the building! I'm sure it will end up being more but I'm shooting for this round number. Wish me luck! Thanks for looking. -ashley

Here are some pics. Please pardon the mess, as it is our workshop and woodpile for the rehab.... One thing that is not clear, the main entrance to the building and the studio comes down some stairs by the bathroom and lounge area. the other door to outside is off the live room. -ashley

Bump. Anybody got any feedback? .....humbly bumping...... -ashley

Hey ashley.... glad to see greater cincy is getting another studio. :-) Can't help you much with sketchup, but I have a few thoughts to share. First, if I had a church building, I wouldn't be putting the studio in the basement! LOL Can you say, big time live room? Secondly, I'm not too crazy about your room shapes. the control rooms are symmetrical from the listening position forward, but in a surround room I'd rather see a perfectly symmetrical control room. Also, I don't know why you'd build a rectangular control room when you have the option of putting walls (almost) wherever you want. I don't have any specific room layouts just yet; as I said I suck with sketchup. Let me think about it a bit, maybe I can try to come up with a simple sketch.... in the meantime I imagine some people more qualified than I will give it a go... (John, Gullfo, Kendale, etc)....

Thanks for the reply jwl.... The sanctuary space will most definitely be used as a recording space. :D :D I am currently setup there temporarily. Drums, omigod! The room will also be rented out for weddings, receptions etc.. so I need to be clear of the space for the control rooms and such. The poles, beams and foundation walls are limiting my placement of the control rooms in the current layout. I am trying to preserve space by not having any hallways and still maintaining access to all rooms independently for each control room. I understand your point about non-symetrical shapes for CR1, but my plan is for mucho acoutic treatment to go in any non-symetrical areas so that the finished room will be even. Basically bass traps in corners with false walls and slats to make the sidewalls. CR2 is a rectangle but again, treatment will alter the reflection pattern. Of course the reason I'm here is for suggestions though, so well put! :) -ashley here's a shot of the big room....

maybe something like this works? since you're doing 5.1 the CR can be more "square" because of the relationship to the mix position but you can have the "extra" space in the CR for seating and additional trapping etc. i picture a shared machine room - either enter through the live space or add a door in each CR as needed.

As always, gulfo, you make food for thought. I had tried to make the CR's opposing with their main speakers on opposite walls to minimize transmission between rooms. your machine room solves that though. One problem is that there are two more poles, one of which lies right in the entrance to the machine room as it stands. The other is symetrical with the one in the live room. Here's the room layout as it exists in the pic below. I'm wondering if we move the machine room out into the live area more and make each CR longer/bigger but still keep the orientation the same as you have it, the center pole could be lost inside the walls. I love the big center live space but for my uses, I prefer larger iso booths. I don't mind having less isos that are larger. I will mess around with this and see what comes up. thanks so much for the ideas! -ashley PS How's the baby? :D

you could definitely extend the machine room to hide the pole... as well as enlarge the booths as desired - plenty of space. another option is to use of the extra space in each CR as a separate machine room where equipment most likely to be dedicated to each one is located and a keep shared one between them as need for mic storage, etc as well. if you didn't have the requirement to have CR entrances on the lounge side, you could put them into the live space area and really optimize them.

Your designs have given me all sorts of ideas. This is exactly the help I needed. Incorporating the poles inside a CR but behind the treatment really allows for so many more possibilities. I am concerned about room volume. All the reading I've done about ratios and room volume suggest that having a decent volume is going to be preferred over the "perfect" ratio. Plus, as Eric Desart has been pointing out over at Studiotips, the ratios fall into ranges of possible ratios that will work well. I am tooling around with making a bigger main CR that has 8' distance to the speakers with closer to 2800 cubic ft in volume with 8.5' ceilings that I anticipate. Plus, this will make a nice confortable room to work in with around 330 sq ft of space to play with. Having the larger space will also allow for more bass trapping to tame the lows. Also, the surround specs are saying at least 320 sq ft with 2800 cubic ft in volume for decent surround. I really do need the access to the lounge so clients can get into both CR's without any hassle, bathrooms too. Those damn foundation bits that stick out! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: Driving me nuts! Here's my quick idea, the shape would change but the orientation with the pole and stuff would work I think. The big intrusion of the wall on the right would end up being flush with treatment and dissapear. The surrounds are shown in both the 110 and 135 degree positions. I could move them to taste. hmmmmm........ :idea:

OK, I've rotated the CR and tweaked the geometry but I'm running up against sqaure dimensions. I'm not sure how this will work since its not square in shape. I'm planning on full bass trapping behind the surround speakers especially the left one. Soffits for the front speakers with slat sidewalls tied into them. I have two sets of surrounds pictured, one at 110 and one set at 135 just to show me the range of possible positions that they could sit within. I'll only have one set when its done, most likely in the 135 position. -ashley

I've been crunching away on this and have a new overall floorplan. I am compromising on the second CR symmetry to make the whole thing work. That room will have fairly heavy treatment all around I'm guessing. -ashley

that seems to be a reasonable solution. maybe a bit more tweaks on the smaller cr - could you turn it 90 degrees so part of it sticks out into the live room? doors front and rear for access?

As I sit here and stare at the floorplan, I notice that the two smaller booths together are making perhaps another decent control room shape. Maybe having that be one big booth that could double as a third potential CR would make for more versatility. I have interest from local composers and engineers for leasing rooms from me so this is a plus. I'm gonna mess around with CR 2 and get it tweaked up and try the third psuedo CR shape out of the booths. I'll post back with the results soon. thanks, ashley

Ashley - this is an interesting problem isn't it - I do like your idea of the 8' speaker distance room. It's a nice comfortable size. I'm concerned with the ergonomics of the space - it appears there is only one door in? which I assume would be the entrance. So far all designs have you walk into the main studio to get into the facility. Not sure I like that. I'd also consider getting a structural engineer to work out how many addition I-Beams would need to be added to remove the two jackposts in the main studio area. cheers john

Hi John, Thanks for taking a peek. On the last floorplan, the wall to the south (down) it pretty well open for a door anywhere. I have placed one by the left surround speaker. This goes directly to the kitchen/lounge area. One of the things I like is that the sight lines work well all the way to the lounge through the CR into the live room. Boy, getting rid of the pole in the live room would be sweet. I'll at least investigate it with an engineer. My sense is the cost would be very high to do this. The 15" I-beam that this post supports rests on the outer foundation, the pole and then the beam across the two foundation stubs. Keying in new I beams to take the load would be a job! :shock: :shock: :shock: The attached pic shows the door and also how the beams lay. One of the thoughts I had was to use the "wall" around the post to attach beams that would hold the live room ceiling. the span of that room is pretty big and I would want to avoid using large timbers (2x10??) to span the whole thing and thereby loosing ceiling height as well. Oh the tradeoffs......:roll: :oops: -ashley

How about this approach? It requires removing the jack posts. cheers john

Well certainly all of the HVAC problems go away with all that hallway and lounge space available to drop the ceilings and run the ductwork. Hmmmm... Food for thought. I really like how the second CR works flipped around like that, makes more sense. Moving the jack posts is the issue at hand. I will look into it further since it opens up so many possibilities. One of the issues with the posts is if we move them (not getting rid of them) they will require big footers and stuff, concrete work. The steel structure holds up two floors above it so it needs to be right. Ah, crap for the engineers to deal with. I'll get someone to look at it. The only other thing is that I really am not sure that I need so much client/lounge areas since that whole other room is available for that and we have another entrance to the building that comes down a big staricase to the bathroom and kitchen. I just don't want to waste space on hallways and reception if I don't need to. Also, we lost the central machine room. there's room to figure that out though.... Your plan gives me all kinds of ideas. That's what's so great about this site and all the folks here..... mucho ideas. OK, now to call the engineer and get out my wallet.... :oops: :oops: :evil: :evil: -ashley

Your idea also has other plusses in that there are significant buffer areas between the rooms to help with TL. It seems (according to Eric D.) that my lightweight walls and non floated rooms are going to make the project not work so well. I am going to also speak with the engineer about cutting my slab in a couple key areas to help with TL. If we cut the slab, how much heavier should I make the walls to match the iso of the cut slab? -ashley

ashley, It's fair that you link to my reply. http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.p ... ght=#40490 The emphasis lies here on "the interactivity, commercial character and handling independent projects simultaneously" within your intended concept.

Sorry, didn't mean to not link, just a bit lazy :shock: Again thanks for all the help and advice you've offered. Facing the reality of the whole thing is daunting. -ashley

It's OK ashley, I've no problem with you asking other opinions. And I do understand: this are important decisions for you. I just like, when you refer to me, that my words are left in the context I used them.

I am considering floating the main CR to get enough TL so that both studios can work together on differing projects. The main CR will be mostly mixing while the second smaller CR will do the bulk of the tracking dates. Floating one room I think is doable financially for me and will really help the studio function better. I am thinking of a 4 inch slab floated on these: http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/lsm.html I lose 6" in height but since the room will mostly be dead anyhow, I'm guessing not a big loss. I will have to beef up the walls considerably but not sure how much. The ceiling too... I am concerned about the use of sliders in the main CR compromising the TL of the rest of the construction. How does a slider hold up in this type of application? Will I negate all the benefits of a floated floor by having one slider in the side wall? ashley

I am guilty of having created two fairly identical threads here and on the StudioTips site. In the interest of keeping things consolidated, this thread here will be the single place for my studio design ideas and stuff. So that any info generated over at StudioTips is not missed by any readers here, this is the link to that thread which contains some very valuable contributions by Eric Desart and others from that forum. http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=3053 They are a great group over there and I'm sure many folks here participate in that forum as well. On another note, my laptop has recently decided that it no longer wishes to function at all and of course I'm behind on my backups so life has taken a dramatic turn for the worse as all my current info is pretty well trashed by the demons of hard drive failure...... :evil: You are only as secure (data-wise) as the number and frequency of your backups. I need to have that tatoo'ed on my forhead so each morning I will be reminded to make sure the backup server is working well. :shock: Let my loss of data serve as yet another example to others to take backups seriously. OK, so I have no idea what I'm supposed to do tomorrow...... great. :( -ashley

After dealing with the data loss, I am now back to further designing on the studio. I have been re-reading Rod's book and thinking about getting the best isolation I can within a reasonable budget for me. I've made some initial phone calls about getting a floating slab poured for the main CR to provide a much larger amount of isolation to that one room. So long as this room is isolated, I can have another project working in the second CR and tracking rooms without much disturbance. It looks like a serious expense to do a proper floating slab and then I will have to put many more layers of gyp (like up to 7) to make the expense of the slab worthwhile. Something else that I would like to consider is the isolated slab on grade. I would have to cut my slab and pour new footings where the walls would go in order to support the slab under load. I am thinking that this would cost considerable less than a whole floating slab. Also, 7 layers of gyp would be very expensive to do while also matching the isolation in the HVAC system. I have adjusted the floor plan to provide a greater gap between the two CR's for more isolation and also to run the main HVAC trunks through. With an isolated slab, I would go with three layers of 5/8" drywall, with greenglue between layers 2 & 3. This I think is the best I can get in my situation and budget needs. One concern is the support pole that would remain in the large CR's isolated slab. If I cut the slab that close to the pole but also put a new footer there, will there be any compromise of the support? guess I need an engineer on site for that. Anyhow, here's another floorplan to look at. thanks, ashley