Improving a Mixing room and Basic Tracking Room Design

Hey, guys. I've glanced over this forum a number of times in the past couple years, but I won't lie and said that I've read into everything nearly as much as I should have. My friend, two other engineers, and I are opening a new studio about 30 minutes outside of Philadelphia, PA. As it stands now, there will be two tracking studios and my little mixing room. There are a bunch of other rooms in the place, but they don't have much relevance to this. :P The one tracking studio will be built for the other two engineers and as far as I know, they've got that planned out. The other tracking studio will be shared by my friend and I. As of now, the room is as the sketchup file states. There's also a smaller room in the corner(that is being used as a temporary "control room"). The walls of this room are getting knocked down, so it will be an open space like in the sketch up file. The other room is currently in the corner to the right of the single door on the opposite wall of the windows. What my friend has suggested, is that he would like to build his control room out much larger(Currently, the small room is something similar to my mix room. I stupidly forgot to make measurements.), build a drum booth in the opposite corner, and at a minimum, have two iso booths for amps. He didn't seem too concerned with having a vocal booth or anything. He mainly wants there to be enough separation between the control room and tracking room that there will be no problems with getting sounds. The iso booths for the amps would be great for live tracking. We're also looking to leave enough room for a band to be able to practice in the tracking room. The room's construction now is like you would find in an average office building. Sheetrock on the walls, drop ceiling, and carpet on the floor. The windows extend to the ceiling. There's also another 2' above the drop ceiling. I guess to hide the HVAC. I don't actually know what kind of budget he's working with, but I believe he's planning on moving ahead as he can afford it. The main concern is the control room right now. The rest can always be worked out later. Currently, we just have a building. It's an old office building and the owner seems to be all for any modifications. He's putting in a few walls in the other rooms and he knocked out a wall to give us a doorway to the kitchen that won't be in the way. So it seems like we've got a green light for any modifications needed. The township has already been through the building and as far as I know, all permits are spoken for(I'm just a bottom-feeder, I'm sorry I can't give you definite answers. :( ) The bands we'll be recording range from the loudest of metal/hardcore to all-acoustic bluegrass/country acts. Our building is in the middle of an industrial park and the zoning states that we are allowed to be as loud as we want until any time of day or night. :twisted: So.. isolation from the outside isn't too important. We just need to worry about isolation from the other rooms. I really need to talk to one of the other guys about their plans for the other studio. I got into this from my friend and I've only met one of the other guys once. I'll try to shoot them an email and get more details, if you need them. They may even have some blue prints for the building and more information on the current construction. I just don't know for sure if they do. Again, sorry. Alright, on to my mixing room. My friend and I will spend most of our time tracking in his studio. From there, I'll will be mixing/editing in a different room. I'm sure that my friend will end up in there if I'm using the tracking room, too. What I want to do in here is build some sort of modular treatment to get rid of the parallel walls the best I can. Could I build some sort of removable absorbers giving me the 6 degree angles on either side that would be minimum for cutting out flutter echo? Could I also build removable soffit speaker mounts? Or would I be better off with some simple speaker stands? I'm undecided as to my budget, because I don't realistically know how much the minimum vs. most ideal setup would cost. I don't make much money, but I'm heavily considering a loan in the near future to try to build up some decent equipment and treatment and all that jazz. If it would be possible to maybe give me an idea of what something would cost like, that would be absolutely super. Thank you very much for your time in advance. Please feel free to ask any questions for anything I haven't covered. I'd also like to apologize in advance for my lame-o sketchup files. I'm really not good at these things. I tried to illustrate the rooms the best I could. EDIT: The back corner of my mixing room has a curve to it, but I couldn't figure out how to draw this in sketchup. Sorry!

check out this model http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/download.php?id=17051 It's made up of prefab components that would suit your room if rescaled. cheers john

That looks great. Anyone mind telling me how to change the scale in Sketchup? Heh. Thanks, John. EDIT: If anyone has any basic ideas for a layout in the tracking studio, I'd love to see them. I guess I should also mention that my friend plans on having a second door installed on the same wall as the skinny door to have an unobtrusive entrance/exit from the control room.

To change scale - select the component you want to scale and you'll find a blue or yellow outline frame. Now select the scale tool. (Tools/scale) A yellow/blue frame will now show the scale options around the component as green squares. Select the one in the corner but in the middle, it will highlight as being connected to the opposite middle corner. As you move the mouse you will see in the lower right data input box the scale percentage readout like .87,.98 - meaning a change of .87% on the red axis v a change of .98% on the green axis. Make the component fit into your space and type in the rescale as equal in both directions - i.e. .87,.87 Then hit enter. The component will then rescale to 87% uniformly and all the angles and proportions will remain equal. In that .skp model you can select all the front components, i.e the speaker units, the side slots and the units between the speakers and group them together. Then you can rescale the complete unit to fit into your space. All the vertical dimensions will retain the same proportions but the lateral dimensions will rescale proportionately to your room. Don't alter the vertical dimensions. If they don't fit extend each part but don't alter the speaker height etc. Cheers john

Anyone have any ideas for a worthwhile way to layout the tracking studio? My friend suggested that he wanted to have a separate door going out to the hallway on the same wall that the other single door is. It seems he's looking to have the control room in the opposite corner from the little guy. But I'd assume he wants visibility with the rest of the rooms and he wants to have a door going out that wall. He's also looking to build a drum booth in the far corner. I want to get some hardwood flooring in there, but I don't know how soon that would be able to happen. I'd really appreciate any advice here, I'm driving myself mad trying to get everything to line up right in SketchUp. Also, would an inside-out wall type construction offer enough isolation for getting sounds/having monitors playing while recording? I couldn't find too much via the search function because of the common terms. Are there any links that you guys could share showing some principles of constructing something like a drum booth? How about an isolation booth for just a guitar cab? We're looking to be able to do live tracking with plenty of separation. It's also a must to have enough room for a band to set up and jam in there as it will become a practice room for our various bands as well. Thanks in advance again.

if you could put up a floor plan of the space it would help... barring that, John's suggestion to use moveable treatments is a good one. you might also get Rod's book on building studios since it contains a huge amount of information on achieving isolation in your space - none of which is likely to be quality - fast - cheap.

gullfo wrote:

if you could put up a floor plan of the space it would help... barring that, John's suggestion to use moveable treatments is a good one. you might also get Rod's book on building studios since it contains a huge amount of information on achieving isolation in your space - none of which is likely to be quality - fast - cheap.

I posted a SketchUp file in the post with the basic idea of the room.

EDIT: Double post. :oops:

I imported the SAE corner room design, but I can't seem to line up anything in Sketchup for the life of me. For construction, I'm looking at something like floating the "studio A" part as that will be the main drum room/practice area(This is still yet to be determined. We'll probably need to consult an engineer.). I'm curious how tight it would be with 5-6 people in there. The rest would just use the existing floor. I'm not sure how we'd work out the existing doorways into everything. I know the smaller door opens into the room, but I'm drawing blanks on the double doors. I'm pretty sure that they also open into the room. Building more walls around those might be a bit of a hassle, but if we left them as they were(maybe just use the outer wall as a side of the booth?), would there be enough isolation from the drum/main room to have a roaring amp? It would be pretty convenient to have those two rooms for iso purposes, but It all depends on how well we can make everything work. The fact that they're right near a door could make them useless as a general vocal booth, couldn't it? What if we were to move the sliding door over to the opposite side of the door and just have that as the pathway into the main hall and give the booth the proper double walls? I suppose the second doorway could be more of a storage room/spare iso booth in tight situations. It leads right into the kitchen, so I could see it getting a lot of use. I still haven't heard a budget other than "I think I'll have a pretty decent amount of money to work with." He's about to buy $15-20k of equipment, so I'd venture to guess he's willing to spend what he absolutely needs to. Is there anyone that could possibly mock up a Sketchup file for me? I'm pretty awful at it. I was planning on leaving about 6" of air/insulation space between the original walls and whatever we build(from drywall-drywall.. so staggered studs with a 6" total width if that's possible. I sincerely apologize if this is all coming off as "n00bish", we're planning to have everything ready to go in a little over a month and we can't afford to delay it any longer. We hope to do the build over a week sometime in August. I'm not entirely certain my friend was taking all this into consideration and I'm trying to cram as much into my head as possible while actually understanding the logistics of everything. The second studio is being built now and I'd rather not make the mistake he's making.. parallel walls, 3 layers of drywall, mehhh. :( I wish I had been able to talk to him previously and maybe coax him to reconsider. Again, thank you for your time. I really appreciate it.

could you put the tracking room and control room on the same drawing? i'm not seeing how they're adjacent to each other. just a simple floor 2d plan with windows, doors, plumbing, elec panels, etc... accurately measured would make this a lot easier...

gullfo wrote:

could you put the tracking room and control room on the same drawing? i'm not seeing how they're adjacent to each other. just a simple floor 2d plan with windows, doors, plumbing, elec panels, etc... accurately measured would make this a lot easier...

Sorry. I meant to clarify that a bit better. They're completely separate rooms. One will be just my mixing/editing room. I'll be doing all my recording in the bigger tracking room(with it's own control room/live room/booths) and taking my files to my mix/edit room across the hall to complete the projects. I have an idea of what I'm doing for my mix room(It will be a while until I can actually afford it :( ) and I'm just now trying to work on getting a plan together for the tracking studio that my friend and I will be sharing. We're planning to have something constructed in August. I will give a go at a simple line drawing of the idea I have in Sketchup. I have no clue how to successfully add all the necessary layers for a full on construction(like framing/insulation/HVAC/walls/etc.). I'd have to go up and try to get everything measured up if you need more. The lower ceiling line is to represent the drop ceiling. There's another 2' above that. That area is where the HVAC is running. It's currently running through large diameter tubing. They have to be something like 12-16" across. I'll be up there in the next few days, but I think the room will be in use, so I'm not sure I could really run around and measure stuff/take more photos. Right now, there's a small room in the opposite corner from the little guy in Sketchup. The walls don't go all the way up to the ceiling(Actual ceiling. They stop just above the drop.). This room will be removed and my friend suggested that he wanted the control room placed there.

Aloha, Here's a couple of 2D's to help visualize what you've described. Let me know if this is on the right track... Aloha 8)

I love you, Kendale. :D :D Any chance you could send the SKP file my way? I'm going to go in and see how the HVAC is laid out in the next couple days and see if I can start getting a more concrete plan in place. Rod's book also arrived today, so I hope that will help cut down on the stupid questions. 8) I will bring my camera up and take some pictures of the room to give a much better visualization of what we're working with. I'll also try to cram down most of the isolation and construction chapters in Rod's book. 8)

Aloha, Pics would help us to see what you're describing and working with. Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

aloha! nice work Kendale!

I showed my friend the layout, and he is beyond psyched. It seems that he had something completely different in mind. Right now it's just a matter of use being able to realistically afford this. We also need to figure out exactly how everything will be constructed... :shock: Also.. I got some pictures for you guys. 8) EDIT: These shots should help you visualize the tracking room a bit better. I never included the small room in the SKP file because we intend to remove it. As you can see, the windows are recessed about a foot. The HVAC comes in right over one of the double doors and it has hoses that come off into vents pointing downward. Hopefully we'll be able to work with all this.

Here's what I could get of the HVAC. You can see some of the framing for the small room in the background of the one. The other was taken right in front of the door. Is it just me or does the wall not actually go entirely to the ceiling? It seems to stop a bit early and it's stuff with insulation. Today was our first real test of the current isolation in the building.. there is NONE. My mix room is about 25 feet away from the tracking room. I had a friend over and we were working on writing some music. The amps weren't deafening by any means, but they were loud enough to at least sound decent. My friend came over and mentioned that if they stopped what they were doing(tracking a roaring Mesa) and stopped talking, they could pretty much hear every note we played. I'm getting the feeling that NONE of the walls go all the way up. I'm sure the framing does, but it seems that it's just open space above the drop-ceiling. Sigh... Please, let me know if you need any more photos or anything. I'll be up there all day tomorrow. I'll try to figure out some revisions on the design and incorporate where the HVAC is to help clarify things. Thanks. EDIT: Those water stains also worry me. :?

the water stains and possible mold... not good but a building inspection service could tell you more - such as if its old or fresh and if the mold is present... the walls don't appear to go all the way up. you'd really need to either redo the ceilings and/or build up the walls.

We're looking to start building this in August. We'll be using the entire month for the build. Is there anyone that can help me out in making up a legitimate Sketchup file for the contractor to frame out and drywall? It's kind of all hitting me at once that this is becoming a reality and all we've got is a half-assed floor plan. I don't even know where to begin. We have no idea what this is going to realistically cost. The landlord built up the other studio free of charge. It was a VERY simple build. This one is quite obviously going to be a bit more involved, but we're willing to compensate him for it. None of us are too experienced in framing and drywalling, so having someone with years and years of experience seems like a great idea. Now.. where to begin with caulking. We should be caulking just about every nook and cranny on these walls, correct? Are you supposed to caulk the edges around the drywall? Or does the spackling take care of that? Every electrical box needs to be caulked too, correct? The floor is probably going to need to be bulked up, is it not? Right now it seems to be of "standard construction". I'm still waiting to hear what kind of weight it can support(he's on vacation). Especially if it can support 4 new rooms with 2 layers of drywall. :? It seems like it would transmit vibrations VERY easily. In regards to the stains on the ceiling insulation, I brought it up at the studio meeting we had the other day and I was told that there was a leak, but he had the whole roof redone. We're supposed to be having a walk-through with him to discuss any other issues, so I'll make sure to bring it up then. I'm trying to get a copy of the blueprints, but he's on vacation. The copy of the floor plan we have has no dimensions for that room. :x It'd be nice to have accurate dimensions to get this set in stone. As of now, I really don't think we'll be able to afford new HVAC. For the time being, I'd like to reroute the current ducts and get all the returns installed and leave some sort of room to get a new unit installed in the future(when money allows). Would it be wise to just simply run the ducts right to the middle of the four rooms and run the vents accordingly? I'd imagine that we have to figure out something else for the return vents, though. Is soffit mounting going to be worth it? I think it would look impressive, but that's another detail in the mix to get figured out. I have so many questions that I really should be digging around this site for. Sorry about that. Look at this as more of a checklist(that I wouldn't mind some commentary on :P ). Don't even get me started on figuring out how we're routing the electric/audio wiring. :shock: EDIT: In regards to the outer walls. It appears that only the exterior drywall goes to the ceiling. We should be ripping down the interior drywall anyway, shouldn't we? We should also be caulking whatever we can in an effort to seal it, right? EDIT2: I'm understanding the caulking of the interior walls a bit better now with a bit of digging.. I just have no idea what do with those outer walls. Also, is there any benefit to floating the walls and would it be suggested for improving isolation?

Aloha, A few areas (among the many) you may want to consider carefully - Before you begin framing, confirm and reconfirm with a structural engineer that the floors can and will support the studio build, and then how is constructed (so you'll know what you need to do in order to improve it's performance) - Measure and determine how much does the floor transmit sound and how will you address that issue - There have been a several posts regarding the difference between house frame construction and studio construction (and they are very different.) Do a search of the construction "stickies" and threads to find out as much as you can before they begin framing. Here's a good place to start - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4442 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2125

Is soffit mounting going to be worth it? I think it would look impressive, but that's another detail in the mix to get figured out.

I think that more importantly than the "WOW factor" is the improvement in your soundstage and imaging. Some accurate measurements of your room - length, width, height, doors and windows with their placement and measurements would help immensely in fleshing out a Sketchup file for your architect. For a complete working set of plans, may I suggest: http://www.johnlsayers.com/Pages/Promo.htm Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros (Paperback) by Rod Gervais http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5670 Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

OK. I got the "blueprints" from the landlord.. it's just a basic floor plan. :x I went through this and measured up what's on the paper.. but some of it isn't exactly lining up with the measurements I did by hand to check. I guess this was the floor plan BEFORE the walls were studded? I'm really confused as to why it's not lining up. Here's a more updated version of the floor plan. Any ideas as to how I can get more accurate measurements? I was really hoping this would be the answer. Upon further digging, I don't understand how the HVAC is setup in this building. The unit itself is located in the kitchen in a closet. It has lots of sends.. and no returns? The return vent in the hallway outside of my mix room just seems to go right out the roof. I'm curious as to what we'll to do to make this bearable. It also appears that some of the out walls DON'T go up to the ceiling. :x :x I assume that building it up with drywall and sealing it off will be fine though.. right? After getting a quote from the landlord on labor alone at $4k, we're going to build it ourselves. He said he can get us material at cost, which should help cut down costs a bit. What we've got to figure out ASAP is how much materials are going to cost and how to get accurate measurements to get a plan solidified. I apologize if this is elementary stuff, but I can't seem to get proper measurements at all. What should I be doing to measure this room? Also, there is a small room in there currently, but we're ripping it out. The windows are also going to be blocked off. I don't see a reason to include either in the drawing. The leaks have been discussed with the owner and he said they will be fixed. If there's anything I'm missing, please let me know. I'm looking for a similar design to the one originally posted, but with a way of maximizing the space to its fullest potential. It seemed like the control room may have been able to go down in size a bit. Thanks. EDIT: I'm going to see if I can find a way to get in touch with the architect directly. The landlord (he's a very experienced contractor) said that there's not a doubt in his mind that the floor could support the build. I'd still like to get someone in here to check if at all possible. I have Rod's book already, too. It's just a TON to sink in. I really wish I would've been more prepared and bought it earlier.

Any thoughts? EDIT: There's no science to these lines, but this is something like what I had in mind. I kept the control room side walls at a 15 degree angle. EDIT2: I added another JPG with an approximate location of the HVAC. As far as I can tell, there are no returns. I'm at a loss for how we should handle this. There are 3 windows that we plan on blocking off. Could we actually use one as an exhaust?

with HVAC you need a supply and a return. since each room is (in theory) sealed, you need a (at least) supply and return in each room to move the air and ideally keep the noise down while isolating each room. if you're building a room within a room, then you could run a variety of ducts over the ceiling to accomplish this task. you might want to post the question in the construction forum where Rod and Knightfly are likely to spot it and weigh in on the best options.

gullfo wrote:

with HVAC you need a supply and a return. since each room is (in theory) sealed, you need a (at least) supply and return in each room to move the air and ideally keep the noise down while isolating each room. if you're building a room within a room, then you could run a variety of ducts over the ceiling to accomplish this task. you might want to post the question in the construction forum where Rod and Knightfly are likely to spot it and weigh in on the best options.

Done. Are those dimensions looking unreasonable at all? I'll have to check with my friend and see if he agrees with the smaller booths. Now if I could just figure out how to actually use SketchUp... Is everyone drawing their framing manually? Or using a component and editing it to fit the dimensions? I'm lost in this program. :(

a detailed sketchup drawing can take some time... :wink: as far as room dimensions, it looks reasonable.