Erik, you miss the point of the Green Glue site test data completely. And you are missing Eric's point completely as well........ In my opinion what Green glue posted was not only fair - it was more fair than you give them credit for. They take the time to explain in their verbiage on the subject that the largest difference between the MLV and GG is in the areas of the wall's resonant frequencies - and then to point out that to gain additional results like that with the MLV or standard construction it would take a tripling of the mass And it was this area that Eric was telling you it didn't matter to him (or to me for that matter) or to anybody with a knowledge of MAM systems and the properties of MLV products - if the drywall was 1/2" or 5/8" - because the slight difference in mass would not have made any noticable difference at those frequencies. If you understand anything about acoustics you woud realize this as well. If (on the other hand) you don't know anything about acoustics - it might be well for you to pay close attention to what Eric says - because he is one of the best there is. Now - that having been said - you completely - 110% miss the point of the entire methodology being used by Green Glue to market their product...... First- and they are clear on this - they are not doing apples for apples testing (which would make the MLV products even less attractive) They state very clearly in their website that they are comparing their recommended use of green glue with the "two different common applications of MLV." The next is that the real idea behind all of this is a cost comparison of MLV to Green Glue - so that people might make an intelligent descision of what product will outperform - DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR the other. If the MLV products cannot match the performance of GG from a dollar to dollar assemblly cost - and this is with thicker insulation and more mass cost for drywall (with GG) from the get go - how could they ever match it if you start adding hard numbers in for additional drywall? They prove to you that you pay more for a wall with less TL value by using an MLV product - why in the world would'nt you want to save your money and gain the additional TL value by using GG? from a marketing perspective - as well as truth in advertising it makes perfect sense to me the way their tests were performeed and reported. I agree wholehearedly with Eric D. that you should take another look - because you are missing the boat on this oone completely. Sincerely, RodThats cool, as I said I don't have an issue with the product just the comparisons. I read a post where someone said to check the gg site to see how inefective mvl is and that is where I started seeing the apple vs orange comparisons. I was only using mvl as an example.
GREEN GLUE
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 8815.
I understand that, Erik D. You have a valid point there, and I did not dispute that. What I do have a problem with is the sarcasm:Sharward: The above is what I wrote.I did not say that there is no difference. If there are 2 different numbers they will respond differently.You'll never convince me that a 1/2 compared to 5/8 leaf won't affect the tl values.And Erik said he understood the principles.I understand the principles, ....
Eric, your contributions and arguments are welcome and I sincerely hope that they continue. You are an asset to this community and we all appreciate you being here. But the tone of the arguments needs to remain respectful. This forum has a long standing culture that discourages (if not outright prohibits) sarcasm of the belittling kind. Please err on the side of someone not understanding something as opposed to assuming that there is a malicious attempt to deflect the facts and/or call one's integrity into question. 8) This lifeguard hasn't ordered everyone out of the pool, but he is watching the splashing very carefully, and if it turns to dunking again, or if an assault is initiated for any reason, the pool party is over! ;-) (And please understand, everyone, that the "pool" referring to is only this particular thread, not the entire forum or the posting privileges of any of its members. :) My moderation rights don't reach nearly that far -- which is fine by me!) --Keith :mrgreen:You're good, very good, so clever.
Keith,
My last words about this.
In this thread, I (for me extensive, I'm a bad and slow writer) tried to put things in context in a gentle manner, and extensively.
I do have the feeling that Erik continuous to pluck sentences out, just because he wants to defend his point that this site is dubious.
I continue trying putting things in context, even offering to make an oversight of the data available on that site, to get a detailed picture (when having time). Then finally Erik plucks out something which I nowhere in the whole thread claimed, while 4" higher up in the thread, I exactly described that very point. Only taking me serious and reading that sentence, should have made that question in my own words: "You can not convince me that 4/8 equals 5/8, ..... and I do understand the principles " obselate. Well I do feel not taking serious then. And I think I did put in some time in this thread, and I toke Erik serious, until the end where he even didn't ask what I meant with that sentence I wrote, but specific mentioned that he understand the principles. And then just confronted me with the statement that 4/8 is unequal to 5/8. I do agree: 4/8 is unequal to 5/8. That Green Glue site must be dubious. Then I gave up. But I understood.....but I've been looking at the 'lab tests' on the gg site and I find most if not all of the tests are doubious comparisons.
Erik, I get the sense that you are young and unexperienced in these things........ When a company ( like Celotex for example - who manufacture sound board) tell people that their product is the cat's meow- they're selling feature is that you can acheive superior performance by substituting a sheet of drywall for a sheet of their product. (one side or both). And that their product will then give you a superior wall because of both the dampening powers it has and the decoupling powers. But their claim is a substitution - not "in addition to" - and it is based on the knowledge that there is a lack of mass in their system that exists with 2 layers of drywall - but - that is made up for due to the qualities of their product I mentioned above. Now, let's make sure I understand what you're saying here - you believe that a fair test would be 2 layers of 5/8" drywall plus a layer of 1/2" Celotex plus a 3 1/2" air space with fluffy insulation - then 1/2" of Celotex plus 2 layers of 5/8" drywall....... and this would be fair to compare to 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue - then 3 1/2" studs with fluffy insulation and then 5/8" of drywall with green glue in between. But wouldn't that be unfair because you have 3 1/2" of mass on the wall faces in the first example yet only 2 1/4" of mass in the 2nd? Wait- that would be unfair too - because the Celotex SOundboard is installed directly on the studs - in order for it to be fair it must be sandwiched between the sheets of 5/8" drywall? Just like the Green Glue? Get serious - think about Eric's claim that it is impossible to do exactly equal tests when comparing apple and oranges - stop talking down about one of the companies who have not only advanced the field of acoustic isolation - but have spent tens of thousands of dollars having independent testing done to prove their product - and then they provide you with direct copies of that test data (Celotex doesn't - neither do the companies selling the MLV products). ......... and spend some time reading through the data to get a picture of what it really represents (about Green Glue) versus what else is currently considered an option in the area of isolation specific products. If you took the time to review the data with an open mind - and read it EXACTLY the way that GG presents it on their site - you would see that everything there is on the up- and up. If you choose not to see this - if you choose to just close your eyes and say "but it isn't fair" - then Eric and I are both just wasting our time with you . And I have much more important thingsto do than just wasting my time. Sincerely, Rod Sincerely, RodI'm not sure where my comments of gg unobjective comparisons aren't comparible. I'm only going by what's on the gg site, if the site says "gg vs soundboard" http://www.greengluecompany.com/greenGl ... dboard.php and the first comparison shows the soundboard example using half the amount of drywall I say it's not a fair comparison. It's gg comparison not mine.
Man, I think I'd be safer off to denounce jesus than gg on this forum.
Ok I seriously didn't mean to ruffle any feathers and I'm sorry if I did, however could everybody please stop assuming that just because I'm questioning the site tests that I somehow don't understand the mam principle or resonance dampening, cdl or whatever, I don't see how that came across in my posts. "If you understand anything about acoustics you woud realize this as well. " This is certainly unwarranted. Again, I didn't question the product or how it works, simply the misleading tests. If the diff between 1/2 and 5/8 dw is inconsequential then why does everybody on this forum and others recommend 5/8 dw? And why doesn't the gg company just do all the tests of gg with 1/2"? I don't recall a post anywhere where anybody said that if using gg that their is no reason to go to the thicker 5/8".
And to Eric, I'm not plucking sentences out I'm simply quoting you to respond to your questions or questioning your response. Perhaps there's alot of misunderstanding going on here, maybe language. I think that maybe my posts are being interpreted in a manner that I didn't intend, one of the problems with written word as opposed to spoken, sentences get taken out of context too easily cause there are no vocal inflections to indicate tone.
Anyway I understand that the principles are different with gg and that their site is showing the comparitive results using commonly built wall assemblies, my beef was the semi misleading "mvl vs gg" that indicates it's all in the gg that made the difference. My point is that to illustrate the "effects of green glue" one must have no variable other than the gg, otherwise it is not scientific, you guys know this I'm sure. If they had worded it like "The effects of green glue vs mvl in the most common constructions" then I wouldn't have had any beef.
Again I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just had some questions that I feel are legitimate.
Erik
Rod Gervais
"Erik,
I get the sense that you are young and unexperienced in these things........"
Cum-on Rod, I haven't made any personal attacks at all in these posts.
"you believe that a fair test would be 2 layers of 5/8" drywall plus a layer of 1/2" Celotex plus a 3 1/2" air space with fluffy insulation - then 1/2" of
Celotex plus 2 layers of 5/8" drywall....... and this would be fair to compare to 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue - then 3 1/2" studs with fluffy insulation and then 5/8" of drywall with green glue in between.
But wouldn't that be unfair because you have 3 1/2" of mass on the wall faces in the first example yet only 2 1/4" of mass in the 2nd?
Wait- that would be unfair too - because the Celotex SOundboard is installed directly on the studs - in order for it to be fair it must be sandwiched between the sheets of 5/8" drywall? Just like the Green Glue?"
Yes I do believe that would be a fair comparison or at least closer than what I've seen. That is if you title the test gg vs soundboard or whatever. If I developed a product that only worked when you had 8 layers of dw sandwiching it do you think I should post test of it comparing "Erikswickedglue vs soundboard" and use a wall of only 1 layer of 5/8 for the soundboard? And would this test mean anything at all?
The main reason I am saying this is I've done lots of research on the different products available and if I want to look at a test sight to see the effects of various products I want to see the products effects not the comulitive results of how the wall is put together. I mean really, look at their illustration here http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... c&start=15 They have the highest performing mvl wall with only one layer of 1/2" on one side and 2 layers sandwiching the mvl on the other while the highest performing gg wall, the one that they used to show the 9db advantage over the mvl wall, has 2, 1/2" dw sandwiching gg on one side and 2, 5/8" dw sandwiching gg on the other. This is nowhere even close to a fair comparison nor scientific, the least they could do is put anouther layer of mvl on the other side to compete with the two layers of gg, then to top it off the graph refers to tests from vaslty different dates. They should've at least used the test that is shown in the illustration that would've been from the same date as one of the mvl walls. Look at the link.
These tests should really be titled "gg in a wall that we normally build vs mvl in a wall that other people usually build"
Erik.
I do understand your frustration, Erik D., and I too made the same observation that you did. However, I'm giving the other Erik benefit of the doubt in assuming he just missed the points you were making.
Bottom line though:
- Ignorance is not a crime.
- Dilusion is not a crime.
- Frustration is not a crime.
- Disrespectful sarcasm, while not a personal attack per se, gets close to being a crime, and that is why I blew my lifeguard whistle in an effort to hopefully resume calmness.
Erik, I don't interpret that as a "personal attack." At best Rod is guilty of a couple of possibly incorrect assumptions. --Keith :mrgreen:Cum-on Rod, I haven't made any personal attacks at all in these posts.Erik, I get the sense that you are young and unexperienced in these things........
Except for that then it wouldn't work - if you sandwich it between you stop it from decoupling the drywall from the studs..... Besides which - I begin to beieve you are being deliberately obtuse............ with GG using more mass than it's competitors - and beating them in cost performance - you want to add more cost to their assembly so you can see how much more you would have to spend to equal green glue? Well let's see - w don't really need to run tets to see completely how much it would take - in the case of the celotex we can go to the NRC and check out IR-761........ ok - I have my copy ready - do you have yours? Oh look - wall 235 is exactly what you want o see test results for - double layers of fiberboard with 2 layers of drywall (5/8") attached directly to the fiberboard (which is soundboard). let's see - that gives us an STC rating of 52....... exactly the same as the greenglue wall with one less sheet of drywall - and it only costs us 8.33 versus 6.35 to acheive exactly the same results. And then if we add just another layer of drywall to the greenglue wall (with the greenglue sandwich - it only costs us an additional 9 cents(more than the celotex wall with 2 layers of drywall) yet for 9 cents we get an additional 4db of isolation. And that is with exactly the same 2 layers of drywall with one layer of the various iso products - and Green Glue gives me a 4dB advantage for only 9 cents per square foot - or - if I want I can save 1.98 per square foot and stick with 3 layers and GG on one side only. Are you begining to see the picture here - if you consider the cost per performance - then that's all that you need................ and GG poves on their website that this is true......... I grow weary of the fact tht you have not replied to my comments regarding cost performance - or perhaps seeing as that answer plays in Green Glue's favor - maybe it isn't something you wish to discuss. I really do get the impression here that you just want to knock green glue. Tell you what - why don't you invest the rest of the money for testing so that we can get exactly what you want tested? Green Glue has been busy spending hundreds of thousand of dolars for testing - in response to the public letting them know what assemblies they were interested in - but maybe yu should fill the hole - you know what needs to be done. If you really want to bit*h why don't you visit Celotex - or Auralex - or the manufacturers of Homosote (another fiberboard) or any of the hundreds of sites you can purchase MLV from and ask thenm why they don't have a single test posted for your review......... isn't that curious...... Sincerely, RodRod Gervais "Erik, I get the sense that you are young and unexperienced in these things........" Cum-on Rod, I haven't made any personal attacks at all in these posts. "you believe that a fair test would be 2 layers of 5/8" drywall plus a layer of 1/2" Celotex plus a 3 1/2" air space with fluffy insulation - then 1/2" of Celotex plus 2 layers of 5/8" drywall....... and this would be fair to compare to 2 layers of 5/8" drywall with green glue - then 3 1/2" studs with fluffy insulation and then 5/8" of drywall with green glue in between. But wouldn't that be unfair because you have 3 1/2" of mass on the wall faces in the first example yet only 2 1/4" of mass in the 2nd? Wait- that would be unfair too - because the Celotex SOundboard is installed directly on the studs - in order for it to be fair it must be sandwiched between the sheets of 5/8" drywall? Just like the Green Glue?" Yes I do believe that would be a fair comparison or at least closer than what I've seen.
just chipping in to say that I totally get what Erik is saying and I don't see that his observations have been successfully answered.
(just in case you thought you nobody was getting your point Erik :wink: )
Keith please don't lock this thread, I'm finding it very interesting.
Please, give me a break - if you took the time to read my posts - and then reflected on what I said - you would find that there was more than enough in the way of answers in them - as well as a consice explanation of what Eric Desart was saying - just because it seemed much to deep the way he said it for it to be understood apparently. Eric Desart also answered it very concisely - but for some reason the poster couldn't decipher the answer...... aparently neither can you...... But I speak in layman's terms - which both of you should be able to decipher quite easily........... so please go back and re-read everything I've said carefully this time........... Sincerely, - Rodjust chipping in to say that I totally get what Erik is saying and I don't see that his observations have been successfully answered. (just in case you thought you nobody was getting your point Erik :wink: ) Keith please don't lock this thread, I'm finding it very interesting.
Alright I can see this is getting personal and the original point has already been lost and this is going nowhere.
Thank you for your time and thank you to o-range for the supportive comment.
Erik.
Erik, If this is going no where it is because of you not I. You specificlly asked (your original point) the following in your very first post:Alright I can see this is getting personal and the original point has already been lost and this is going nowhere.
And - after trying very hard to point out to you that Green Glue had already proven their product was more cost effective - but that apparently not being what you wanted to learn - I went out of my way to find the exact test you asked for - this performed by none other than the NRC - IR-761. Now, being the patient man I am, I can wait a while until someone works out what's going on and gets back to me. But YOU - you never get back to me - you just seem hell bent on messing with Eric D. You have not respnded to a single post I have made....... and it is this that makes me convinced you are not on the level. But that's ok - be it as it may, run away now - acting as if you have somehow been wronged. While I understand the truth of the troll you are - seeking only to spread havoc Sincerely, RodWhat I'm saying is I don't have an issue with the product just the testing methods, maybe someone knows of other comparitive tests available?
In every class or Auditorium one finds people who really want to learn and get the most out of other's words.
In every class or Auditorium one finds people who just want to be right. They look for/in other's words for handles to justify their own right, ignoring all the rest not supporting their case.
At no point in this whole thread, Erik showed even a trace of an attempt to understand what Green Glue is about and what the disputed graph and/or data is making or trying to make clear.
He even waves it away by telling he understand the princples, plain ignores the written text, and just continuous in the same manner.
That this can either be interpreted as utterly disrespect or plain ........
If I don't want to be treated that way, protecting myself against this behavior I do recognize from practical experience, I'm the bad guy.
And now Rod, you're also the bad guy and Erik the ignorent, mistreated guy with legimit questions.
--------------------------------------------
Erik
You are right. The Green Glue site is full of non-scientific, non-objective data.
You asked for other data:
Here you can find an objective scientific approach:
http://www.auralexuniversity.com/NeighborsWMA.html
This is the only related data available showing the effect for use in Walls from one of the Major MLV players. (Without dishonest comparisons to other competing products)
And you can't dispute it since you can hear for yourself how good it is.
It sounds impressive via these mini standard $25 dollar CPU speakers.
Before using the STC data: this is not representative for music sound insulation.
I do not allow to link or quote any part of this post out of the complete context of this thread.
Rod, Eric D,
We're not all as experienced on these matters as you clearly are. Most of us just having a hard time grasping all factors and sometimes even have trouble just "keeping up" with you. All we ask is some patience to "get it"
I bet a lot of people react in the same way when seeing tests and graphs on the GG site, like Erik did.
And I DO understand the "frustration" when people don't "get" what you're saying (or don't wanna get it, at first). For experienced ppl it may seem so obvious while for laymen it just doesn't.
So both parties (the sender and receiver) should keep some patience I guess. Rod and Eric, we're all still learning here. Your input is highly respected, but sometimes overwhelming.
Ro,
This is not about knowing or not knowing.
There are millions more things I don't know about than what I know about.
For me this is about simple respect.
If Bert or others discusses speakers or electronics, and if I'm interested I listen, hoping to understand what they try to tell me.
And I will never tell I understand the principles without doing so.
And if my background is too limited to understand in a specific field I take the word for it from people I trust to know and handle this knowledge responsibly.
Rod's frustration is not caused by Erik's understanding or not, but by being ignored for his efforts which relates to respect or better lack of.
In fact this could have become a constructive discussion, even resulting in requests to Green Glue to make some things clearer, which I'm sure they should if we give them a valid reason.
And I will point GG to this thread, just to show how important it can be to do it right.
This whole thing is blocked, and walks in circels by someone not being interested to know, just to be right.
It's Erik who triggered this discussion, by doubting the objectivity and scientific approach of this site calling it dubious.
At least he should be willing to understand what he's looking at.
Ok..I might get hammered for chiming in, but it seems that this thread has gone into personal attack mode, instead of figuring out the answers that are understandable to everyone.
We have a WEALTH of professionals on here that DO in fact know what they are talking about, and are on a much higher level of understanding on all of this then most of us (thats why they get frustrated). And as said above, when you type words, there is no fluxuations in that voice, so things can be easily be taken the wrong way (such as an attack, especially when one wasnt meant to be). :evil:
Anyway, about this post (and again, I am a newbie, so I may be wrong here) But what I see is BOTH SIDES are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT within their arguments. Heres how:
The tests show apples vs oranges, true, which at first glance may throw people off,,,,but its done for the purpose of "cost effectiveness" not to match materials vs materials.
In other words, as I understand it: (just an example)
Scenerio A = is 2 layers of 1/2" material w/ GG ... while.....
Scenerio B - may be only 2 layers of 5/8" material
Although now you have two examples with different thicknesses and materials, the point being made is, using Green Glue, you dont maybe need the 5/8" in order to accomplish the same results,,,,thus its cheaper overall while getting you the same TL results.
Does this make sense?? I see (and understand) that Eric is seeing Apples vs Oranges as far as the materials used in the tests, and they are different,,,,but the test is designed that way to show you "how much more you need to use to accomplish the same results while using Green Glue". Its not abhout Apples to Apples or Apples to Oranges,,,but instead,,,its about whats the cheapest way to gain the same results overall.
Does this make sense? And am I right?? (Because I am totally new and and NOT experienced with all this) but I think I see both points and realized the augument is basically just 2 sides seeing the same thing from 2 different angles.
Green Glue is presenting their test studies based on overall cost savings,,,,not idential set ups to show identical results.
And that can look misleading, and they maybe should just show Apples to Apples and then the 2 different TL results based off that.
I think the tests are true and accurate, but maybe a little confusing in their presentation is all. :wink:
Right Wrong??...thats just my 2 cents.
Now Keith can blow the Lifeguard whistle at me to chiming in, and I will go sit at the Flag Pole during the Adult Swim! :lol: :lol: And Keith, since there seems to be descrepency as far as this Green Glue within this thread, I will do you a favor and take all that Green Glue you just bought off your hands for you. :lol: :lol: What a guy I am!! :lol: :lol:
AJ
Studio. with al due resprect - he (Eriksmusicproduction) did not pose an argument - he posed a question - a very specific question, which was specifically answered - which answer he choose to ignore......Anyway, about this post (and again, I am a newbie, so I may be wrong here) But what I see is BOTH SIDES are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT within their arguments. Heres how:
This is correct..........Green Glue is presenting their test studies based on overall cost savings,,,,not idential set ups to show identical results.
That's easy for you (or Erik) to say - after all - it isn't your pockebook (or his) that the money is pouring out of paying for these tests. Let's ue an analogy here fora moment: Let us suppose that I came to you and said - "Hey" I can increase your isolation by 9dB over these other products over there - and it will only cost you 5 dollars a square foot - a dollar a square foot less than any other product at a minimum...... ANd I then sit down and test - in the same basic cost range - exactly what you can buy and build for the money using each type of product......... So for 5 dollars a square foot you can purchase 10db isolation from company "A" - 20dB isolation from company 'B" or 29 dB isolation from me............ why is that not a fair comparison? What other side is there? That is an apples to apples comparison - period - If you were to take the MLV and step up to a system using double 5/8" each side - with MLV sandwiched between it - (which would add less than 6 dB of additional isolation) - it would end up costing you 13.50 versus 8.42 for the green glue and you're still more than 6dB shy of getting were you need to be............. ANd they should pay for these additional tests why ???????? Refresh my memory...... no - seeing as Erik chooses to ignore anything that's posted - anything that answer his question - and would rather bicker and nitpick - it is very clear to me that he is a troll, one of those people who go around the internet causing problems (always very politely) who then step back - as others get drawn into the fray taking sides - and say "who lil ole me? why I never meant to cause a problem........." and then head out to find the next problem they can create. It's clear to me that his question wasn't posed so he could learn....... Sincerely, RodAnd that can look misleading, and they maybe should just show Apples to Apples and then the 2 different TL results based off that.
OK, folks, we're done here.
The question has been asked and answered and explained.
The points about cost-comparitive tests vs. mass material-comparitive has been made.
I'm not a fan of how some have taken to questioning motives of others. Since I'm shutting this down before the anyone has a chance to defend against the troll allegation, I'll simply state that I don't agree with that assessment.