Ventalation and code

Funny thing happened this morning. The building inspetor that inspects commercial building in this area goes to one of the churches in our building. He told me that the codes for ventalation that Rod mentioned app;ied to high rise commercial buildings. Our building is classsififed as a wharehouse. It has built in ventalation holes. That explains why I felt and smelled air passing through the building as I explained to Rod. People here are getting bent out of shape over nothing. I will donate $100 to this website as a courtesy and show of good faith.

eruss wrote:

Funny thing happened this morning. The building inspetor that inspects commercial building in this area goes to one of the churches in our building. He told me that the codes for ventalation that Rod mentioned applied to high rise commercial buildings. Our building is classsififed as a wharehouse. It has built in ventalation holes. That explains why I felt and smelled air passing through the building as I explained to Rod. People here are getting bent out of shape over nothing. I will donate $100 to this website as a courtesy and show of good faith.

eruss, as I explained - it wouldn't surprise me if a building inspector doesn't know the code - although my guess is that you did a lousy job of explaining the situation to him. Even warehouses require a minimum of 10cfm fresh air continuously to each space within them - and your little recording room and control room do not classify as "warehouse space" They are not being used for storage-= and even though they might be considered an accessory use due to size - the individulal space still required continuous ventilation according to the code. I quote from the InternationalBuilding Code - Chapter 12 entitled: INTERIOR ENVIRONMENT - Section 1203 entitled: Ventilation subsection 1203.1 entitled: General "Building shall be provided with natural ventilation in accordance with section 1203.4, or mechanical ventilation in accordance with the International Mechanical Code." Section 1203.4 entitled "Natural Ventilation" reads: "Natural ventilation of an occupied space shall be through windows, doors, louvers, or other openings to the out doors. The operating mechanisms for such openings shall be provided with ready access so that the openings are readily controlled by the building occupants" Section 1203.4.1 entitled Ventilation goes onto say: "The minimum openable area to the outdoors shall be 4 percent of the floor area being ventilated" OK - so now I have to ask you - what are the net area of the doors and windows in your rooms that open up directly to the outside air? Please note that each room is a seperate "area" and needs to have the requirements of that space met in the code. So explain to me what windows or doors you have in these spaces. I remember your saying that you would leave the doors open if you had to - did you mean the doors into the hallway? Because it has plenty of fresh air? You said it did..... But then again - that too is addressed by the building code...... Section1203.4.1.1 entitled "Adjoining spaces" reads: "Where rooms or spaces without openings to the outdoors are ventilated through an adjoining room, the opening to the adjoining room shall be unobstructed and shall have an area of not less than 8% of the floor area of the interior room or space, but not less than 25 square feet (1.86m squared). The minimum openable area to the outdoors shall be based on the area being ventilated." So if you use the hallway - you cannot have a closed opening between the hall and the room - if the tracking room has a door to the outside that would serve - then you cannot have the control room (which would be relying on that door for fresh air) closed off from the tracking room. So which is it - do both rooms have windows to the out doors or do they both have doors? Or does everything have min 25 s.f. openings to each other? If they don't meet the criteria for natural ventilation - then they have to meet the criteria for mechanical. By the way - just curious - did you see anything there making reference to this being only applicable to high rise buildings? I didn't. OK- so let's visit the IMC...... Chapter 4 entitled: "VENTILATION" Subs-Section 401.2 entitled "Ventilation required" reads: "Every occupied space shall be ventilated by natural means in accordance with Section 402 or by mechanical means in accordance with Section 403." Subsection 401.3 entitled "When Required" "Ventilation shall be provided during the periods that the room or space is occupied" Please note- the mandatory use of the word "shall" - nothing allowing you to supply fresh air only "some of the time" when the room or space is occupied - The mandatory requirement is during the times of occupation - period - no room for mis-interpretation - even you should be able to decifer that one. Section 402 entitled "NATURAL VENTILATION" reads identical to the IBC. Section 403 entitled: "MECHANICAL VENTILATION" reads as follows: 403.1 entitled "Ventilation system" reads: "Mechanical Ventilation shall be provided by a method of supply and return or exhaust air. The amount of supply air shall be approximately equal to the amount of return and exhaust air. The system shall not be prohibited from producing a negative or positive pressure. The ventilation system shall be designed in accordance with Chapter 6. The required rate of ventilation shall be continuous during the period the building is occupied except where otherwise stated. Ventilation supply systems shall deliver the required rate of supply air within the oiccupied space between 3 inches (76mm) and 72 inches (1829mm) above the floor and more than 2 feet (610mm) from the enclosing walls." Table 403 - entitled "REQUIRED OUTDOOR VENTILATION AIR" does establish areas where constant fresh air is not required: Item "c." in the notes states: " "Spaces unheated or maintained below 50 degrees F are not covered by these requirements unless the occupancy is continuous". Ummm......... you don't meet that requirement do you? Oh - btw - does anything here suggest to you that these requirements only apply to high rise buildings? I mean - heck, if it did -= they would probably say so - don't you think? So it looks to me - and of course i only base this on what you have told me - although i have begun to think that perhaps you don't explain yourself or your situation very well........ BUT - you are not code compliant. Because even if the remainder of the building has open ventilation to the outdoors (and if this is the case I can see why the owner spends as much as he does every month - that's a pretty foolish set-up) you do not have the continuous use of that - and THAT IS THE CODE REQUIREMENT - regardless of what the building offical said....... Perhaps if you walked him into the space and said - "so sir, when we're all closed up in here - where is our fresh air coming from?" he might see things a little differently. Please do not think for a moment that you can come here (or anywhere else) and make me to look the fool....... on your best day you are not better at what I do than I am on my worse........ Rod

rod gervais wrote:

I quote from the InternationalBuilding Code - Chapter 12 entitled: INTERIOR ENVIRONMENT - Section 1203 entitled: Ventilation subsection 1203.1 entitled: General

The inspector said we don't follow international building code. We follow local city and state building code. I don't disagree that my studio needs ventalation. I disagree that the building as a whole does in the way you said. I am even taking your advice as to the ducting. No need for name calling man.

eruss wrote:

rod gervais wrote:

I quote from the InternationalBuilding Code - Chapter 12 entitled: INTERIOR ENVIRONMENT - Section 1203 entitled: Ventilation subsection 1203.1 entitled: General

The inspector said we don't follow international building code. We follow local city and state building code. I don't disagree that my studio needs ventalation. I disagree that the building as a whole does in the way you said. I am even taking your advice as to the ducting.

fine then - you live in CALI - and the state code there is based on......... (drum roll please)....................................... The 1997 UBC - I have copies of those 2 volumes somewhere - I'll dig them out...... But understand - again - the BOCA reads exactly the same as the IBC and as the UBC and as any other code does........ when a building is occupied it requires ventilation - constantly - as long as it's occupied - and any rooms or spaces within the building require the same..... For me now this isn't as easy as you saying - "hey Rod - I agree - I should have ventilation - but you're still wrong" Tell you what = please contact me and give me the name and number for your buiding official so that I can get the definative answer on this....... I'd love to do that - and then if your town took a state code that claims to be the minimum standard - and they lowered their standards even more than that - then I'll be happy that I don'tlive there- and will gladly tell everyone here that I was wrong..... what do you say????????????? Rod

rod gervais wrote:

what do you say????????????? Rod

I say that as long as the building gets ventalation then the fan does not have to be running as I believe you said it did. I will try to call city hall tomorrow. I agree that building inspector do not always know what they are talking about. Neither do studio experts. :P I'll let you know.

I have been following these threads from errors (I mean Eruss), and I must say Rod,,,,I'd just give up! :roll: This kid has no clue, and obviously seems to just like to argue. :roll: You state facts, backed up by spelled out code,,,to the "T" and all he does is come back and argue. I'd just let him roll with things as he see's fit, and let things unfold as they may, and when he spends money just to find out he wasnt the "know it all" he thinks he is, then those "Studio Experts" on here can say "Told ya so!". :lol: Instead of paying a $100.00 contribution on here, maybe he should worry more about Paying ATTENTION! :? And Eruss, dude, you should really quit trying to fight the system. Some of these guys on here, like Rod, could be your biggest asset! Take advantage of it instead of making yourself look like a fool and pissin them off. Ask the right questions, then absorb their responses before trying to argue when your out of their league. :wink: Trust me,,,these guys are not stupid!! Peace AJ

eruss wrote:

rod gervais wrote:

what do you say????????????? Rod

I say that as long as the building gets ventalation then the fan does not have to be running as I believe you said it did.

eruss, you must be very thick headed.......... because I have been very clear through out this.......... if the remainder of the building is a warehouse- and is wide open - and gets fresh air - that doesn't do a thing for your spaces - which are not open directly to outside air - and which can't (by code) take the fresh air from inside the space UNLESS THEY ARE NOT CLOSED OFF FROM IT BY DOORS........ Thus - the only way your rooms can get fresh air is through mechanical means - and then - those mechanical fans have to run continuously when the space is occupied. My answer to you in the beginning was exactly on point - I specifically asked you where your fresh air came from - you said from the HVAC system - and if that was the case- for you and the entire building - then IT WOULD HAVE TO BE ON CONSTANTLY WHEN THE BUILDING WAS OCCUPIED. If you now tell me that the warehouse is directly open to outside air - then that satisfies the requirements for the open space in the building - BUT NOT FOR YOUR SPACE - which has to meet the new codes in use today - whos requirements I have made you aware of. If your building official can't figure that out - because you keep focusing on the warehouse - and not your studio within the warehouse - the one with NO CONNECTION to the outside air...... that changes nothing...... ALL OF MY STATEMENTS HAVE BEEN ACCURATE - AND EVEN IF THE BUILDING OFFICAL APPROVES YOUR INSTALLATION WITHOUT FRESH AIR - ALL THAT DOES IS MAKES HIM/HER WRONG - AND YOUR ROOMS STILL WILL NOT BE CODE COMPLIANT...... In the end - when everything is said and done - the building codes hold the permit holders responsible for complying with the codes - even if the building official erroneously approved it (design errors) in code review. Rod

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eruss wrote:

Our building is classsififed as a wharehouse. It has built in ventalation holes.

eruss, how is it that your building is classified a warehouse? You told us in an earlier thread: "I have two rooms already build in a commercial building that has been renovated to house multible churches." When a building is constructed - it is given a USE GROUP- BUT when a building goes through a "change of use", when people stop using it for it's original purpose, and change what it will be used for now - then it is no long the original use group - it becomes as if it were a brand new building - classified forthe new use - and required to meet all applicable building, fire, accessibility for the HC AND life safety codes as if it were brand new construction being built today. You're saying in that thread I quoted thaty the building was converted to multiple churches - which makes it an assembly use - not warehouse (Storage) use......... perhaps you want to ask your building official about that as well - he doesn't seem to have a strong picture of what that building really is - even though he attends church there. Or at least that's the way you portray him.......... Rod

This is where Rod is wrong He said:

I understand what you're saying about the equipment running constantly (although in order to meet codes the fan is supposed to) but we're only talking the fan here - that isn't what costs him the money to run - it's the compressor that runs the big bucks.......

No Rod it is not. In California, open doors and windows COUNT as ventilation if it ventilates 20% of the building size. The code only requires us to have a system that will do what you stated. The code does not require us to have it on all the time as you have erroneously stated. And we DO have that system. If windows and doors can get the job done then it is ok. In California they are very energy conscious and don't want a fan running allot taking up valuable electricity. Remember the energy crisis here? You can call the local building inspector for Garden Grove to verify what I said. I am sure you know how to look it up. He said this was in Chapter 12 of the California Building code. And no Rod, California does not recognize International code. They will next year but not this year. And I thought you were wasting your time and were not going to respond to me any more. I am glad you decided you were wrong about that too. :P

So, are we talking regular code here or are we, as audio geeks, have a different approach on STUDIO air regulation ;) (you know, a tight, closed room with doors sealed and such) Eruss, I'm a big fan of the "question everything" method and never assume the "experts" are always automatically right. However, your attitude may need some smoothing. Keep up the discussion, but keep it polite. Same goes for ROD ofcourse ;) no flame wars please. else keith might come round and punch yer lights out, haha. (no really)

eruss wrote:

This is where Rod is wrong He said:

I understand what you're saying about the equipment running constantly (although in order to meet codes the fan is supposed to) but we're only talking the fan here - that isn't what costs him the money to run - it's the compressor that runs the big bucks.......

No Rod it is not. In California, open doors and windows COUNT as ventilation if it ventilates 20% of the building size.

eruss, I acknowledge that in my earlier posts - perhaps you should read them....... however - that doesn't get your recording studio fresh air - unless (and yes = I did ask you this) - do the rooms in your studio have openings directly to the outside? If they do then you meet the code as I noted in my post quoting the IBC.......... if they do not - then I don't care if the rest of the building has no walls - that doesn't get your recording studio vented....... and thanks for the name of the town - I will give him a call - he makes no sense on this issue at all.......... Now - before I call him- just how many openings - of what size do you have in your various rooms that open to outside air? And by outside air I do not mean within the building - but to directly outside......... Rod

Rod, I know this is frustrating for you, but to further underscore how helpful your continued provisions of fact are, I think this thread pointed out an error in my own fresh air mechanical ventilation plan that I'm soon to execute myself: I had intended to have my fresh air supply register on the ceiling, but your citation of code (which I'm sure is similar to the CBC with which I'm obligated to comply) makes me realize it needs to be on the wall instead: :shock: Thank you! eruss, I'm convinced you're not explaining the situation accurately or clearly enough to your building officials. They are undoubtedly making assumptions based on what you are telling them. I also don't recall seeing that you were granted an actual permit. Might it be (...guessing...) that you don't actually have one but are making a half-hearted attempt to meet code? If so, I urge you to stop what you are doing, draw up detailed plans of all aspects of the build, then submit your plans to the City of Garden Grove (which, y'all, happens to be adjacent to the City of Anaheim) for a thorough plan review. They may (or will...!) reject the plans as drawn, with specific code citations that need to be met. I have found that only the simplest code questions can/should be done by phone -- rather, having drawings and/or photographs in hand and going to the building department in person is much more effective, even for informal consultation. I hope this thread can remain civil because I really want to see how this story ends. THIS IS VALUABLE STUFF! :twisted: --Keith :mrgreen:

sharward wrote:

I think this thread pointed out an error in my own fresh air mechanical ventilation plan that I'm soon to execute myself: I had intended to have my fresh air supply register on the ceiling, but your citation of code (which I'm sure is similar to the CBC with which I'm obligated to comply) makes me realize it needs to be on the wall instead:

Keith, either I am presenting something badly - or you are miss-reading something - when using a mechanical fresh air supply - the supply register can be on a wall or the ceiling - it doesn't make a difference. It's only when using the natural supply method (i.e.: direct connection to outside air) that it has to be on a wall........... Rod

Whew! I must have misread it, Rod. thanks for clarifying! That makes sense, actually. :-D --Keith :mrgreen:

rod gervais wrote:

eruss, I acknowledge that in my earlier posts - perhaps you should read them....... however - that doesn't get your recording studio fresh air - unless (and yes = I did ask you this) - do the rooms in your studio have openings directly to the outside? If they do then you meet the code as I noted in my post quoting the IBC.......... if they do not - then I don't care if the rest of the building has no walls - that doesn't get your recording studio vented....... and thanks for the name of the town - I will give him a call - he makes no sense on this issue at all.......... Now - before I call him- just how many openings - of what size do you have in your various rooms that open to outside air? And by outside air I do not mean within the building - but to directly outside......... Rod

Rod, with all respect I never questioned you on what to do in my studio. Maybe it is you that needs to read more carefully. I am questioning what you said about our building as a whole apart from the studio and that it was not up to code because we did not have a fan running all the time. The studio COULD be a problem. Personally I really don't care about the code as long as it gets enough ventilation. Of course, if it gets enough ventilation then it will be up to code. Inspectors have been to our building many times. They stopped constuction on the building next door that is owned byt he same owner because of some things they did not like. Trust me, if there were violations the city would be down on us. They come on a regular basis it seems like. For some reason I waste your time and make others think I am some kind of bully when that is not my intention. Pehaps if I pay john and talk with him on the phone then he will hear my voice and know that I say things in jest and do not mean any harm.

sharward wrote:

eruss, I'm convinced you're not explaining the situation accurately or clearly enough to your building officials. They are undoubtedly making assumptions based on what you are telling them. I

The question is about the building as a whole and whether it has enough ventilation. Inspectors have been to our building MANY times. One even gos to church there. It is Rod who is not understanding me. Our building does not need to have a fan running all the time to get ventilation. My studio is another question. As it is now. Air goes in. But if the door is closed, I don't see how it goes out. Doesn't have to go out as well to be called circulation? And if it is air tight and air goes in but not out then isn't it like blowing up a balloon?

eruss wrote:

The question is about the building as a whole and whether it has enough ventilation. Inspectors have been to our building MANY times. One even gos to church there.

THE QUESTION IS NOT ABOUT YOUR BUILDING AS A WHOLE - IT IS ABOUT YOUR ROOM IN PARTICULAR. Every single thing that I have said has been in reference to your room - in order for your room to have fresh air - without operable without openings directly to the outside - it has to have the fresh air supply running constantly when it's occupied........ how did this turn into the building as a whole? You're the one who told me that your HVAC is a roof top unit - and that would be )normally) the supply of fresh air - and they generallyt have a barometric relief damper and outlet on them......... so if the fan for the unit was running - your fresh air would be provided. This with a caveat - you should have about 15cfm per person for fresh air - and you would have to verify that with the airflow you have now - that you would be getting that percentage........

It is Rod who is not understanding me. Our building does not need to have a fan running all the time to get ventilation.

Rod understands completely - has from the get go - it;\'s you who hasn't gotten it yet.......

My studio is another question. As it is now. Air goes in. But if the door is closed, I don't see how it goes out. Doesn't have to go out as well to be called circulation? And if it is air tight and air goes in but not out then isn't it like blowing up a balloon?

do you mean to tell me that you don't have your return air ducted? Rod

rod gervais wrote:

do you mean to tell me that you don't have your return air ducted? Rod

No it does not. YEs, I am worried but not overly so because There is direct openings to the out side. But NOT when the door is closed. The two rooms of our studio were pre existing office rooms. The ducts that are comming in were already there. There was no return line then either when ATT used the two rooms. So does ours need a return line when they did not?

I'm beginning to wonder if this is some kind of modern day "you've been framed". Like an online Jamie Kennedy Experiment. Ok so where's the hidden camera? Maybe this is an early April fools day prank???

eruss wrote:

rod gervais wrote:

do you mean to tell me that you don't have your return air ducted? Rod

No it does not. YEs, I am worried but not overly so because There is direct openings to the out side. But NOT when the door is closed.

eruss, Not it does not what? Do you have both supply and return ducts installed for your rooms? And what is the direct opening to the outside that you refer to? Perhaps you should provide a sketch of the studio so we can understand what's going on......... this is much more complicated than it should be - and that's a big part of the problem. Rod

rod gervais wrote:

eruss, Not it does not what? Do you have both supply and return ducts installed for your rooms? Rod

No. Just supply, but the supply lines were already there from the previous construction. I just extended them and added the silencer. The two rooms of our studio use to be office rooms. The supply lines were alreay there. There were no return lines IN THOSE ROOMS before. Of course there are returns in many other parts of the building, but not in those two rooms.

eruss wrote:

No. Just supply, but the supply lines were already there from the previous construction. I just extended them and added the silencer. The two rooms of our studio use to be office rooms. The supply lines were already there. There were no return lines IN THOSE ROOMS before. Of course there are returns in many other parts of the building, but not in those two rooms.

Well that is not all that unusual for office space - for one - the doors to an office are generally open when the office is in use - I only close mine if I have to have a private meeting - 2nd - the doors are always wide open at the door bottom - and usually undercut by an inch or more- so the return air can be sucked out under the door....... But in your case the doors will be gasketed and closed when you're recording or mixing - so (for all intent and purpose) they are useless for you from a return point of view. But - when fan isn't running - you aren't getting any air anyway........ I still want to hear about the openings to the outdoors you referred to. Rod

eruss wrote:

Personally I really don't care about the code as long as it gets enough ventilation. Of course, if it gets enough ventilation then it will be up to code.

So, you must be of the opinion that "being up to code" is some kind of gold standard, like something you might aim for so that you might get close...? It doesn't occur to you that code might actually be a minimum standard for safety...? You haven't said it outright, but I'm now assuming you indeed have no building permit for this... :roll: Rod, I already know your take on this (I think I stole the erroneous "gold standard" analogy from you), but if you have any energy left, let'er rip! :-) It'll probably be a moot point, but it'll at least serve as a good example how not to do things... :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

I don't know why you guys waste your breath on this guy. There's much more deserving and receptive posters on here seeking help...

The main reason we are continuing to help, I think, is because the arguments are actually educational to everyone. But if it gets uncivilized, I'll lock the thread. --Keith :mrgreen: