where is my knight in shining armor?

Started by terrible_buddhist on 17 October 2003. 49 replies.

Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 847.

Ok knightfly...looks like the design phase is coming to a close (although at some point I may want to add an amp room on the other side of the vocal booth...but I digress. here is the drawing:
External image, not preserved — original: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/files/studio_527.jpg
The left outer wall is concrete, as is the North wall, and most of the south wall. There is a pretty good size gap between the framing and the concrete...The live room/ dead room is not floated...but the control room and vocal room will be. So which walls need to be made of what? Also, is carpeting the live room/ dead room floor going to be ok...the top of the floor is mdf. Thats about it...looking forward to your help...thanks!
no, I don't think it does. I am looking for something more specific, like, you should use rockwool in the vocal room, but with no drywall, as fabric will be better, and 1/2 gypsum on the walls with concrete will be good, but 5/8 on the inside walls is needed. I do appreciate the help, but continually pointing to a link I have read a bunch of times isn't the help I need right now. - Keith
Kieth, at the risk of irritating you even further I'd like it if you could read through a DIFFERENT thread where I lay out some basic rules for wall construction - if you can start by telling what YOU think the construction should be, it will take me a lot less time to only have to suggest CHANGES - if I see you're not even close, I'll take the time to start from scratch - Here's the link, and thanks for your patience- - http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598 BTW, the 2-leaf thing starts with the wall surface in one room, and ends with the wall surface in the NEXT room, NOT two walls, EACH with two leaves... Steve
Yeah, I can see where that could be clearer - Why don't you start by asking the first 2 or 3 questions that come to mind, and we'll work from there? Steve
This was just for guidance showing 2 flat walls and the other 2 walls being angled Bryan Giles
Sorry Bryan, I didn't even notice where that came from - I just realized that there's a lot we take for granted sometimes, and it can be confusing to people who are just starting out. That's why I suggested he post the first few questions that came to mind, so I'll know more where to start... Steve
True That true That. We have to always start from a novice aspect till we know the knowledge level of the recipoient of this information. Bryan
giles117 wrote:
True That true That. We have to always start from a novice aspect till we know the knowledge level of the recipoient of this information. Bryan
Keep in mind a lot of us (myself included) are mere monkeys... even though we've read the SAE documentation and millions of posts here and on HRBBS, it takes a looooooong time to reach the level of comprehension that you guys and John have. While I am very interested and completely fascinated with acoustical engineering, I know that my knowledge depth will never be deep enough in time for me to finish my studio, which is why I ask dumb questions and hope for smart people like yourself to say "do this". My passion is creating and composing, not hanging drywall. I can *do* drywall, but thats not my core competency, nor is determing what layers of what to use and how to affix it to the wall. So hopefully I phrased this correctly without pissing everyone off. Trust me, when I find a building thats suitable for a "pro" studio and I embark on the journey, I know who to call, who to pay, and who's problem i can make it with the appropriate compensation :-D Then I can remain ignorant of all the minute details that make a good studio sound awesome. Stuff I can't possibly learn in time to do it right the first time. Make sense? If not, know that its an ass-backwards compliment to several people. Frederic, proud monkey.
Frederic, I couldn't have put it better myself. Everyone's knowledge base, desires, and abilities are different - I can't even begin to imagine how boring our world would be if that weren't so. Each of us has priorities, as well as things we are better off "farming out" - it doesn't matter that we COULD do everything, or BE everything - what matters is striving toward doing what we ENJOY doing, as much of the time as we can. My definition of success is when you're doing things that make you satisfied and happy (without hurting anyone in the process, of course) and if you can share some of that to others' benefit, it's just icing on the cake. Jeez, that sounded schmaltzy - I gotta go take a "mean pill", get back on track... :twisted: Steve
knightfly wrote:
Frederic, I couldn't have put it better myself. Everyone's knowledge base, desires, and abilities are different - I can't even begin to imagine how boring our world would be if that weren't so. Each of us has priorities, as well as things we are better off "farming out" - it doesn't matter that we COULD do everything, or BE everything - what matters is striving toward doing what we ENJOY doing, as much of the time as we can.
Glad my comments weren't taken the wrong way, and glad you can appreciate the position a lot of us monkeys are in. I'd love to understand all this to the degree you do, but for me to do that would mean my home studio would never get finished. Its much easier to beg for advice and have people say "do this". Unfair to you guys, but I can offer advice back on electrical and syncing issues :-D Or hot rod advice, but that would require a seperate forum I guess LOL
Jeez, that sounded schmaltzy - I gotta go take a "mean pill", get back on track... :twisted: Steve
I have that every morning while standing in front of the coffee pot waiting for the dripping to stop. Grrrrrr.
"I have that every morning while standing in front of the coffee pot waiting for the dripping to stop" - cool, a fellow addict... Hey, that's an area ripe for improvement - I've yet to find a coffee maker that both makes good coffee, doesn't take a Nintendo freak to run, and will push its OWN button half an hour before my alarm goes off - had one, made by "Puke-tor Silex", the first one made two pots of coffee and died, the second lasted a week and died, I finally took it back and got a Bunn - closest thing yet, but no timer - oh well - On another sub, just bought CARA a couple weeks ago, haven't had much time to play yet but noticed several posts by you (?) on their forum. Made a couple myself, couldn't help noticing the lack of activity there. I was thinking of getting their "AC Controller", but can't find much info on it, the Canadians don't handle it, and the German site won't talk Englisch for that page. Problem is, it's apparently only RS-232, and I'm not sure if it would survive one of those Serial to USB converters or not, since my new laptop has no serial ports. Guess if I get serious I could find a PC card serial adapter - Oh well, enough projects for this millenia anyway... Steve
knightfly wrote:
"I have that every morning while standing in front of the coffee pot waiting for the dripping to stop" - cool, a fellow addict... Hey, that's an area ripe for improvement - I've yet to find a coffee maker that both makes good coffee, doesn't take a Nintendo freak to run, and will push its OWN button half an hour before my alarm goes off - had one, made by "Puke-tor Silex", the first one made two pots of coffee and died, the second lasted a week and died, I finally took it back and got a Bunn - closest thing yet, but no timer - oh well -
On another sub, just bought CARA a couple weeks ago, haven't had much time to play yet but noticed several posts by you (?) on their forum. Made a couple myself, couldn't help noticing the lack of activity there. I was thinking of getting their "AC Controller", but can't find much info on it, the Canadians don't handle it, and the German site won't talk Englisch for that page. Problem is, it's apparently only RS-232, and I'm not sure if it would survive one of those Serial to USB converters or not,
Wild guess, I'd say "probably" because the rs232 data coming out isn't real time, therefore its not a big deal.
since my new laptop has no serial ports. Guess if I get serious I
A docking station is your friend :-D I intend to skip products like the cara, and use a basic Db meter I have from rat shack, and walk around the place playing sinewaves from 25hz to 20Khz. Not an ideal method, but beats clapping.
Wish my laptop offered a docking station - had one for the old one, but it's not up to newer apps and out of drive space with no internal options available. I only found two laptops with both firewire AND stereo line IN and OUT - both were Toshiba, and the line in/out function and firewire were NOT negotiable. Thank God for PC slots... I know I could have opted for a PC audio card, but didn't think about that til the deal was done. Still, not too bad - I hook up power (bought two adapters, one for the road and one for the desk) , RJ-45 and a USB mouse (hate touchpads) and I'm there for home. Far as room tests are concerned, I'm not convinced that steady state sine waves are all that's necessary since I've yet to find a piece of music I like that only uses them :roll: So I'm probably going to spring for the ETF package soon, including mic and pre. Runs about $550 for everything. Even though the CARA stuff appears to be quite powerful at a very reasonable price, it's probably too time-consuming for my intended use. See next - My goal is to be able to walk into a customer's place (whether commercial or consumer) with a laptop, powered nearfield(s) and small bag of misc. stuff, and tell them within 20 minutes what/where/how they need to do to fix their sound. If I can accomplish that, I could probably quit my DDJ (Dreaded Day Job) and just play with fun toys - Ahhh, hope springs eternal... Steve
Here are my thoughts: this is for live/dead room only at this point, other rooms to follow after I get these down :) Orange (live room):these have concrete on the other side, so I will put in insulation, in that concrete side of the wall, then build the angles out, fill those walls with insulation (so there is an airgap between the 2) then do slots in varying widths (should this be random or build up in width of gaps?) Blue (Live room): same as orange, only backed with MDF. Brown(dead room): use hangers and 703 covered by drywall of varying thickness. Green(dead room): Walls backed by MDF, hanging 703, and varying thickness drywall on the angles walls. k...what do you think?
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Keith, either Live or Dead room, with all that STIFF concrete you're going to want as much bass trapping as you can get. For ALL those angled walls in your tracking rooms I'd put up 2x4 studs on 24" centers, then put your 703 hangers behind them and panel them with alternating 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" plywood panels 24" wide, with 3/8" plywood panels near the deepest parts. You can use construction adhesive and glue a strip of insulation to the insides of the panels that's about 6" wide, so that the fluffy part touches the panel and runs lengthwise. This will damp the panel and widen the response, making it more even. The 3/8" panels in front of 18-20" air space will resonate near the low E on a bass guitar, so will take some of the boom out of that note. The rest of the thicknesses, placed over narrower gaps as the panel thickness decreases, will do the same for upper bass frequencies. Gluing soft insulation strips on the panels will widen the resonance and smooth out the response, although lessening the total absorption. For your Dead end, you can just mount 1" 703 about 1" in front of the resonator panels, and you'll still get the bass trap effect but with a deader upper mid and high end. If you make these portable, you can kind of "tune" the room to your tastes easier. I'll stop now and let you figure out your next round of questions, while I figure out the next round of answers :? Steve
so the mdf on the side that backs the control room and vocal room is a good idea? also, I want to use plywood for the facing of the live room and the slats for the dead room? Do you have any pictures of this (I am very visual) lastly, should I carpet the dead area, and leave wood exposed in the live? I noticed you didn't mention rockwool at all...do I not need it in this room? Ok, next round is the vocal booth...I am lost here, some people say wood for the lower panels, not for the above, other people are saying kill the whole room...what is my plan here? thanks as always!
also, strange idea...but what about using a windshield from a car for the control room window...its curved! eh...just a thought.
dammit, sorry to keep posting...but for my angles...how should I calculate it...eg, for every foot in length, come half foot out, or something like that. Please specify by color the angles I should be going for.
Keith, I'll try to answer all your questions as soon as I can, but try to realize something - we have, so far, 514 members signed up on this site - there are THREE of us moderating all the forums, so it gets really difficult to repeatedly answer questions that are already answered in the many resources that are already available here. You've been referred to them already, and claim to have read them - but just reading things through once doesn't give it a chance to "sink in" always. Case in point - you talk about using "slats" in your "dead end" - yet, here is a quote from one of the pages on absorbers at the SAE site - "If we vary the depth from the wall, slat width, slot width (and the slat depth) we can create a wall that is a broadband low-mid frequency absorber. The beautiful thing about these absorbers is that they still reflect high frequencies, in fact they will diffuse them which is even better." - The part, "still reflect high frequencies", means that this will NOT make a room sound "dead", but actually keep it "live" sounding. I'm not trying to irritate you here, just make a point - in a lot of cases, the answers to everyone's questions is already here in print if you look around a bit - sure, I know most of the answers already, as do John and Barefoot - but we're outnumbered here, and if we try to re-write every bit of information here each time someone has a question, we would never eat, sleep, or make a living. I'm doing what I can to answer all questions as thoroughly as possible, because I am WELL aware of the difficulty of getting all the pertinent information together in one spot - still, it would help a lot if you could take advantage of what has already been said in order to better understand the principles of sound control and acoustic performance. The more of these existing resources you study, the less you'll need specific one-on-one help to figure out your particular needs. Please don't take any of this as a personal attack, because it's NOT intended that way. I just need everyone to understand my limitations of time and energy, and to help themselves where possible. Some of the more helpful threads in this forum - http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=634 http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=775 http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598 http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=841 http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=728 If you will take the time to read these threads, I've laid out most of the rules and reasons for sound proofing in them. As far as acoustic treatment goes, I'll see what I can do in the next day or two to get ALL your questions answered - Again, I'm not trying to avoid anything but I don't have the time or energy to repeat myself over and over either - the more you can learn from what's already here, the closer I can get to sleeping at least 4 hours a night. Thanks for understanding... Steve
sorry, my confusion stemmed from the term resonater panel, when discussing the dead room, when I read http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm it says: corner slot resonator for low-mid absorption. It consists of a MDF box with varying slats on the front installed with varying gaps. The variables are the depth from the wall, the width of the slats and the width of the gaps between the slats. The box created must be completely sealed to be airtight. The only access to the outer air is via the gaps between the slats So, I thought that section of the room needed slats too. Unfortunalty, now I am all screwed up...sorry to upset you, that was not my intention.
Not to worry, my bad - sometimes I just get too much at once and don't want to short anyone. Still, not a total loss - here's what I got for you last night, things were slow enough to get some doodle-time - Keith, I got a little time to work on your questions last night, and realized that there may be several changes that would work better for you - first, though, I need to know just how far along your construction is - how much of what’s on your drawing actually exists, and which parts are yet to be built? Refresh my memory - what is the solid gray section inside your vocal booth? For one thing, in your tracking rooms there is no need for everything to be symmetrical - if leaving out the angled construction on one side will leave you with more usable floor space, there’s no real reason not to do that. With your solid concrete outer walls, though, you WILL need lots of bass trapping of one kind or another. You also still have (besides the ceiling and floor) another pair of parallel walls at the far ends of the live and dead tracking area. I ran the modal response for your tracking area, attached is a plot of that. You will need to build absorbers for three different frequencies to tame the three pairs of modes that are too close in frequency to each other - These center frequencies are at 48, 149, and 298 hZ. 48 hZ is too low for practical Helmholz traps (slat resonators) without using excessive depth, so it would probably work better to build panel traps centered on 48 hZ, then tailor your slat resonators for 149 and 298 hZ. The 48 hZ panel traps should be placed at either or both ends of the tracking area, since that mode is a function of the width and length of the room the panel traps should be placed at all four corners of the room. 3/8” plywood over a 12” air cavity will give you the 48 hZ center frequency you need for the panel traps- these, being low frequency, should have all but the front panel built from heavy MDF - ¾” is fair, 1” is better. I would build four of these, 2 feet wide and at least 6 feet tall, sealing everything - you can use standard 6” house insulation inside, make sure the insulation doesn’t touch the front panel but is within 1-2” from it. You can “trap” the insulation by using chicken wire or other lightweight “hardware cloth” and a staple gun and fastening the wire mesh to the sides of the box all around. Thin wood lath or cleats over the wire with small screws where the wire lays flat against the side walls will make things stay put. This layer should hold the insulation at least 1” away from the inside of the front resonator panel of 3/8” plywood. All joints, including the front panel, should be caulked with acoustic sealant. All construction should be glue and screw. When finished, these traps can go in all four corners of your tracking area, facing each other, and against the walls. These are pressure activated traps so they need to be against the walls, not ¼ wavelength away. At an average depth from the wall of 18”, a slat resonator with 1/10” slots between 5.5” x .75” slats, will have a center frequency of 146 hZ; with an actual depth of 12” to 24”, this would give a fairly broadband absorption centered at the 150 hZ frequency that needs treating. These should be the topmost section of your top orange section and the bottom-most section of your bottom brown section. I've numbered these #1 and #4 in my markup of your plan. For the dead end’s brown section, if slots make it too bright you can mount 1” 703 in front of (not touching) the slats with no ill effects. Building this exact same slat resonator in front of an average cavity depth of 6”, but with the 5.5” x .75” slats spaced at 7/32”, will yield a center frequency of 300 hZ. That should be the other section of your upper orange and lower brown angles (sections 2 and 3), running from 0 to 12” deep. This 300 hZ mode coincidence, since it’s caused by the 4th harmonic of room height and the 6th harmonic of width, shouldn’t be nearly as strong as the others - however, that’s also the prime resonant frequency of typical kick drums, so having a trap centered on that frequency isn’t a bad idea even if it’s NOT one of the modal problems of the room. For a good start on the basics of building these, click on the John Sayers Productions logo at the top right of this page, then click on “wall units” - You’d be building a modified version of the “Corner Unit”, or actually more like the “Wall unit” - actual spacing of the elements are spelled out in the two preceding paragraphs. These units also need to be sealed, except where the air goes through between the slats and through the cloth. They can be partially filled with any leftover insulation, either 703 or spun glass or rockwool. Try to keep the insulation spread out over the entire inside of the box, and fairly close to the front slats. If you have it, sheets of 703 will work well here. As far as wall angles go, if you’re over 12 degrees total between two walls you’re fine. 1 foot in 10 gives about 6 degrees, so the 2 feet in 6 I drew for your traps will be plenty. The other two broadband absorbers (not 1, 2, 3, or 4) can stick out from the wall by 18-24” and be fine. This isn’t critical in the tracking area, symmetry is only required at the mix position. Don’t use a car windshield - more problems than it’s worth. 2.5 pcf to 3 pcf rockwool or 703 should be used in all walls not otherwise specified, such as traps/absorbers. I would only use MDF on free-standing units or for dividers between slat absorber sections - it’s too expensive for walls, and gypsum works as well for about half the price. I would NOT carpet ANY part of the studio as a permanent thing - if it’s too live, you can always lay down an area rug. More choices that way. On the vocal booth, I redrew part of it - with the new angles, you will probably want hard floor, 2-3” 703 ceiling, and 703 on at least one wall (probably opposite the slat absorber I added.) Don’t make it too dead, you can always do that later if it’s too live. I think I covered just about everything you brought up so far - See what you think about the changes I made to your drawing… Steve
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And my markup of your plan -
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Knight, that is beyond amazing...I am dumbfounded. Thank you for taking that much time on that! As to the construction question: the studio room (live & dead) has been created as have the outer walls to said room. The floor was not floated (despite my protests) my thought right now is to lay down the tri-ply gaf and put another layer of wood on top (maybe mdf) to cut down on the boom. The floor is however filled with insulation. The other rooms WILL be floated. I thought I was in a big hurry last night because I always think things can be done faster than they can be, I actually thought the entire studio room would be framed last night...I have NO concept of time. I do however realize you put a lot of it into what you just did for me, and you have no idea how much I appreciate that...did you get ANY sleep last night? The gray area in the vocal booth is concrete...we are in the basement of a car repair garage which is why EVERYTHING except the east wall is concrete. even the ceiling is concrete, which I am sure will present its own problems. I am going to disect your post now...again thank you.