In the inllustration in Rod's book on window design there is shown a peice of "fabric wrapped insulation" that goes between the two walls to hide the gap.
For the bottom there is no problem but there is no way to get such a loose thing as fabric wrapped oc703 to stick to the upper inside of the window frame. Glueing or stapling would surely result in sagging at some point.
Even getting the fabric to "wrap" around the insulation seems impossible because you can' glue or staple fabric to insulation.
It seems there is no way to hide the gap exept with a wood baord of some kind.
Is that what people here do?
Remember, if what ever is in that gap comes loose over time the wall would have to be ripped out to fix it.
Possible flaw in Rod's window design
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 8435.
eruss, he's talking about rigid fiberglass. I'm pretty certain that you could use some spray adhesive and attach fabric to such fiberglass, and have it hold its shape pretty well.
Normal fluffy fiberglass wouldn't work too well in this application, methinks.
Nope. Tested that already. It does not adhere enough to trust it long term. Besides once you adhere the fabric to the rigid fiberglas there is no way to adhere it to the top. It will sag or come off if you glue it. If you nail it you will see the indentions from the nails. THe only way I see to do it is to stretch fabric and staple it then put wood trim over the staples. However, even this way leaves at least one seam showing.eruss, he's talking about rigid fiberglass. I'm pretty certain that you could use some spray adhesive and attach fabric to such fiberglass, and have it hold its shape pretty well. Normal fluffy fiberglass wouldn't work too well in this application, methinks.
which spray adhesive were you using? I imagine if you get some of the 3M heavy duty stuff, and coat well both the fabric and the fiberglass, let it rest until it's nice and tacky, then carefully smooth it out?
If not, maybe put a layer of cardboard over the top edge of the rigid fiberglass, then adhere the fabric to that?
I used Auralex. I'll try something else. I also have another idea. I'll let you know if it works. Thankswhich spray adhesive were you using? I imagine if you get some of the 3M heavy duty stuff, and coat well both the fabric and the fiberglass, let it rest until it's nice and tacky, then carefully smooth it out? If not, maybe put a layer of cardboard over the top edge of the rigid fiberglass, then adhere the fabric to that?
Russ, 1st off - remember that I told you in the beginning of the book that I was not going to teach you how to construct - thus not how to use a skil saw - nor how to use a lathe or drill press......... well this is one of those things that I figured any experienced tradesman would be able to figure out - so I didn't bother to explain. There is no flaw - you just aren't thinking creatively...... It's not that tough......... and you don't even need adhesive........ if it's done right it won't ever sag. cut your rigid insulation for a tight fit (and the top should go up before the sides) the fit the cloth wrap so it fits the face, wraps the sides and laps about an inch over each other in the back. Make the full wrap and use standard sewing pins to pin everything tightly together....... then take a regular ordinary staple gun - the type you hold in your hand like this: http://www.shoplet.com/office/db/EPI90119.html and carefully work your way from 2 corners and then down the length of the piece - making sure to hold everything even and snug..... once you have the piece made - you can take standard Panel Nails - 1 1/4" or so, pre-paint them to match your cloth color and tack the piece up into place. Then (finally) you can install your 2 sides and then the base...... all 3 of which should receive a few tacks as well to keep them in place over the years. When you're done - if you didn't know the nails were there you'd never even notice them.... they just sort of dissapear in the scheme of things. Sincerely, RodIn the inllustration in Rod's book on window design there is shown a peice of "fabric wrapped insulation" that goes between the two walls to hide the gap. For the bottom there is no problem but there is no way to get such a loose thing as fabric wrapped oc703 to stick to the upper inside of the window frame. Glueing or stapling would surely result in sagging at some point. Even getting the fabric to "wrap" around the insulation seems impossible because you can' glue or staple fabric to insulation. It seems there is no way to hide the gap exept with a wood baord of some kind. Is that what people here do? Remember, if what ever is in that gap comes loose over time the wall would have to be ripped out to fix it.
1st off. You did not write a book to skilled tradesmen I hope. You wrote it to DIY's Which is immplied in the title. We are amatures. Most of us don't use skill saws everyday. Not even every year. So we need a little extra help. So yes Rod, it was tuff. It took me three days to get it. But, yes, you did say that. You also mentioned this website where can get that help. And it is greatly apprecialted. Maybe a advanced addition to your book would be a good idea. I have a mind to write it myself, if I had time. None the less I do recomend your book highly. 2nd, I would not trust your idea at all. Having handled both materials for the last 3 days, I would say that way would sag over time. If you have built them that way, I would bet some are sagging. If not, then I would be surprized. But, you would know better than me. 3rd, I hope this discussion helps others. I DID figure out a way. And it is very solid. I cut them tight to fit. I glued the fabric with Auralex spay. I put them in place (they stayed in place because of the tight fit) then I pinned them down hard with quarter round moulding. They aint going now where!! :!:Russ, 1st off - remember that I told you in the beginning of the book that I was not going to teach you how to construct - thus not how to use a skil saw - nor how to use a lathe or drill press......... well this is one of those things that I figured any experienced tradesman would be able to figure out - so I didn't bother to explain. There is no flaw - you just aren't thinking creatively...... It's not that tough......... and you don't even need adhesive........ if it's done right it won't ever sag. cut your rigid insulation for a tight fit (and the top should go up before the sides) the fit the cloth wrap so it fits the face, wraps the sides and laps about an inch over each other in the back. Make the full wrap and use standard sewing pins to pin everything tightly together....... then take a regular ordinary staple gun - the type you hold in your hand like this: http://www.shoplet.com/office/db/EPI90119.html and carefully work your way from 2 corners and then down the length of the piece - making sure to hold everything even and snug..... once you have the piece made - you can take standard Panel Nails - 1 1/4" or so, pre-paint them to match your cloth color and tack the piece up into place. Then (finally) you can install your 2 sides and then the base...... all 3 of which should receive a few tacks as well to keep them in place over the years. When you're done - if you didn't know the nails were there you'd never even notice them.... they just sort of dissapear in the scheme of things. Sincerely, Rod
You're right - I didn't write to just pro's- but I did write to musicians and engineers....... who generally think outside the box....... if I had taken the time to detail and explain each and every sequence of operations through-out the book - I would still be writing - probably around 650 pages when all done.1st off. You did not write a book to skilled tradesmen I hope. You wrote it to DIY's Which is immplied in the title. We are amatures. Most of us don't use skill saws everyday. Not even every year. So we need a little extra help. So yes Rod, it was tuff. It took me three days to get it.
I don't abandon anyone.....But, yes, you did say that. You also mentioned this website where can get that help. And it is greatly apprecialted.
Then be surprised........ although I can't see why - this isn't like we're talking material 10 or 12" wide here - it's a couple of inches at best - stretched cloth won't sag when it's that short a span if it's installed right.......2nd, I would not trust your idea at all. Having handled both materials for the last 3 days, I would say that way would sag over time. If you have built them that way, I would bet some are sagging. If not, then I would be surprized. But, you would know better than me.
Take a pic and let us see what you did....... I'm always open to new ideas....... Rod3rd, I hope this discussion helps others. I DID figure out a way. And it is very solid. I cut them tight to fit. I glued the fabric with Auralex spay. I put them in place (they stayed in place because of the tight fit) then I pinned them down hard with quarter round moulding. They aint going now where!! :!:
Maybe this is where I can't see what you are saying. In my case the distanse is further. It is about seven inches. I could not see your way not sagging after many years. But if it was 2 inches, then I can see that it would not. I did not think about that. You are right. A studio engenere is different than a machanical enginere. :roll: I did take some pics. I'll post them in my studio diary soon. I think it is safe to say now that there is no flaw in your design. My particular space was bigger. I think that is where the problem was. I was wrong and you are right. And I am glad about thqt. :DThen be surprised........ although I can't see why - this isn't like we're talking material 10 or 12" wide here - it's a couple of inches at best - stretched cloth won't sag when it's that short a span if it's installed right.......