Scientific Laboratories Studios: Rehearsal Room Questions

This is my first post so hello everyone. As with many, I've been lurking for a while now and have been checking out relevant posts and searching for answers to my particular issues. I've learned a lot, but have a few more questions and hopefully some people might be able to assist me with them. The project in question is a commercial space for band rehearsal rooms. I'm going to call it Scientific Laboratories, or Scilabs. An odd enough name, but I like it. I am about to sign a lease on a building and hope to quickly proceed with construction. It will be located in Brooklyn. Rent in the particular area is quite high, as it is in most of NY relative most everywhere else. The high rent means that maximizing the space in terms of number of rooms is a must. That's the New York was as far as affordable rehearsal rooms go. Fortunately, my prospective clients aren’t expecting and don’t want to pay for really high end soundproofing and acoustics, which is good, because the situation can’t provide it. The rooms are intended for standard guitar/bass/drum setups of varying loudness. Just so everyone has an idea of the overall space and the packing in of rooms, there’s a google sketchup mockup of a possible room configuration below. The space is almost 6,000 square feet and 50% bigger than my desired size. But availability of suitable spaces in this area is very low at the moment so I had to either go for it or possibly wait another 6 months to find a more suitable property. This one was too good to pass up in other respects though. It’s a single story building on grade with sufficient exits to comply with code. My neighbors are primarily heavy manufacturing companies, so keeping the sound in isn’t much of a priority, although I’d rather not deafen passers by and this will be 24 hour access, so I’d rather not attract attention at night. But the external walls are very thick, so I don’t see significant problems. I’ve attached a couple of pictures of the building itself. I realize, however, the sheer amount of rehearsal rooms mean that a good quality construction will be needed, even if the bands I hope to attract aren’t as discerning as some. And I need to be careful and efficient about the techniques I use. So with that in mind, here are my current construction specifications for the rooms. Rooms: My current plan calls for three different size of rooms, all being built with independent frames inside the existing structure. Here are the approximate sizes. 5 rooms: 10’ x 10’ 9 rooms: 10 x 15’ 8 rooms: 10 x 20’ The building has high ceilings, so I was planning on going for either 10’ or 12’ height in all rooms. Adjacent room studs are to have a 4” air gap, giving a total of 12” between rooms. Walls as per standard double stud construction, pic attached: 1/2” Sheetrock 5/8” Sheetrock 2 x 4 steel stud R13 Insulation 4” Air Gap R13 Insulation 2 X 4 Steel Stud 5/8” Sheetrock 1/2” Sheetrock Ceilings: My original intention was to replicate the walls in terms of the amount of sheetrock on either side of the ceiling studs with the appropriate insulation. Floors: My current floor appears to be very thick concrete and at grade. After reading the floating floor sticky, the various links to other threads and Rod Gervais’ writings on the topic, I decided to leave it be. Doors: My original intention was to use a single solid core door. After reading the Installing a door’ thread in the reference section, I figured I’d be better off with a hollow core door with 5/8” MDF on each side with veneer plywood. Probably doesn’t work out too much different in price either, hopefully. I’ve also changed my mind about the lock I was planning on using and have an idea for a surface mounted one. HVAC: This is the area I’m still most clueless in, especially considering the amount of rooms I’m dealing with. It was suggested to me that I use a flexible duct system to go from central insulated steel ducts. The flexible duct would have the appropriate angles So those are the basics of what I plan to do. In terms of budget, suffice it to say that I have costed the job and it is affordable to me. But I still have unresolved questions: 1. I went for two different sizes of sheetrock because I had heard that the different sizes would provide additional protection but then I read knightfly’s comments somewhere saying that wasn’t entirely accurate and that it would take a different material, say a layer of MDF. Is there any additional benefit to using different thickness drywall or is it minimal compared to the extra mass? If the latter, I guess I should move up to 5/8” drywall for inner and outer layers, although I have to cost this alteration. 2. Although the consensus seems to be that floating a floor when you’re on thick concrete at grade is unnecessary or even unhelpful in certain applications, most of the discussions seem to center on whether noise will reach upper levels of a building from a foundation through the walls or adjoining buildings through the shared concrete. In my case, I have a high density of rehearsal spaces within the same building. Can I expect significantly worse noise transmission through the concrete? 3. My room doors seem like a weak point. I believe the estimated stc from that thread was 40, just as an indicator. That’s much less performance than I should get out of the walls etc. I’m wondering how much of an issue this will be. Since the doors lead to the corridor rather than another room, will this mitigate the damage done in having a weak link? If two rehearsal room doors face each other in my original plans, should I try and stagger them in a similar way to electrical outlets between rooms? 4. I had assumed that the best way to approach a ceiling was to try and replicate the walls (abeit with the appropriate studs for the load and insulation for the studs), so that it doesn’t become a weak link overall. But is this the correct approach? I read a suggestion in a thread here that another approach might be to switch to one layer of drywall on the inside of the ceiling and three on the outside and this might act as a bass trap. Might this be a good option? Unfortunately I can’t find that thread anymore so I may have misremembered or not taken something into account. 5. Can anyone elaborate on the HVAC requirements? I’ve read a bunch of threads here, but most relate to smaller builds and much smaller units. I’m wondering if the sheer amount of rooms I’m linking is going to cause real issues. I wonder if there is any ducting configuration that might be more efficient for my purposes, sound-wise? 6. Is there an element to the overall room specifications that strikes anyone as a particular weak link? Am I wasting materials and money on some element of the room only to lose to performance elsewhere? Hopefully I’ve provided enough info to allow people to make judgments. Any answers that people might have or observations over and above my questions would be greatly appreciated.

Still searching my way through the site and I seem to have come across an answer to one of my questions:

greenlander wrote:

1. I went for two different sizes of sheetrock because I had heard that the different sizes would provide additional protection but then I read knightfly’s comments somewhere saying that wasn’t entirely accurate and that it would take a different material, say a layer of MDF. Is there any additional benefit to using different thickness drywall or is it minimal compared to the extra mass? If the latter, I guess I should move up to 5/8” drywall for inner and outer layers, although I have to cost this alteration.

In another thread, Knightfly says:

Two different thicknesses of wallboard beats two of the same size for mid/upper frequencies, two thicker panels does better at low frequencies.

My instinct is that I'd be better off with two thicker panels in this case, since controlling bass is always going to be my biggest challenge.

greenlander wrote:

4. I had assumed that the best way to approach a ceiling was to try and replicate the walls (abeit with the appropriate studs for the load and insulation for the studs), so that it doesn’t become a weak link overall. But is this the correct approach? I read a suggestion in a thread here that another approach might be to switch to one layer of drywall on the inside of the ceiling and three on the outside and this might act as a bass trap. Might this be a good option? Unfortunately I can’t find that thread anymore so I may have misremembered or not taken something into account.

I just realised I worded this question badly. Obviously replicating the wall configuration on the ceiling isn't happening in a double stud situation, just meant to use similar materials in terms of the layers of sheetrock. And despite trying a bunch of searches I still can't find that thread I was refering to. Will keep looking so I can figure out if I was talking total rubbish, bass traps aren't something I know a whole lot about.

greenlander wrote:

In another thread, Knightfly says:

Two different thicknesses of wallboard beats two of the same size for mid/upper frequencies, two thicker panels does better at low frequencies.

My instinct is that I'd be better off with two thicker panels in this case, since controlling bass is always going to be my biggest challenge.

Agreed. You'll also benefit by not having to keep track of two different stacks of thicknesses. Sorry, very short on time right now... I know you have other questions, so hopefully someone else can comment and/or you'll find the answers you're looking for. If not, feel free to cry "uncle" and we'll give you a hand. --Keith :mrgreen:

Hello, just a comment, I know that you are building just rehearsal space, however, even rehearsal space would benifit for non-parallel walls. The acoustical issues bands may face may make them feel they are not buying much. as a serious musician, playing loud is not always necessary, however it's always nice to have a decent sounding room! :) This would benifit you in the long run as well, as it could save you some money in acoustical treatments (if you plan such things!). also... and this is just a thought... will any of these rooms have storage available? not sure of your overall business plan, but i've thought about this type of business before, and thought one of the greatest assets you could provide for the musicians would be to allow on-site secure storage, (like a mini-storage units within the practice space). if you divide up some of them and possibly two rooms in the center of the building, you could offer storage access to several different practice rooms. (just a thought! 8) ) your 10x10x10 rooms will have some serious room mode issues :shock: ...

Thanks for the comment Keith. I'm sure I'll get some more feedback whenever people have some spare time to contribute, I know everyone here has a (busy, mostly) life to get on with. In the meantime, I'm still trying to increase my knowledge. I think it's very easy to get to the point I am now where I mostly know what an individual component, say a wall, will do in isolation but not being sure what the results will be where they're combined and put into a real life situation. That's probably where most of my questions stem from. Sandlefoot, I know what you mean. Just last night I was thinking about whether I should change as many rooms to non-parallel as possible without significantly reducing the utilisation of the space. I'm meeting my contractor today and I'm going to discuss the matter with him. I agree the 10x10 rooms are not going to be ideal and it mightn't be too hard to shift those walls to non-parallel. All floor to ceiling heights are going to be 12', by the way. As for storage, these rooms will all be monthly so most bands will leave their stuff set up. It's the way people like to do things in NYC, for the most part. I know it's not the same everywhere. I'm from Ireland (moved to NY last year) and it's all hourly there, monthly just doesn't exist, with one or two exceptions.

month long rental?, great! I know the less I have to set up and tear down, the happier I am :D as for your 12' ceilings, is this going to include room for HVAC or is each room going to have seperate units, or do you intend on using a main trunk in the hallway and then branch off into each room? I'm not really familiar with HVAC so, I shouldn't really be giving advice on it ;) but if you supply some more information, then i'm sure someone will. looks like a fun project, good luck!

sandledfoot wrote:

month long rental?, great! I know the less I have to set up and tear down, the happier I am :D as for your 12' ceilings, is this going to include room for HVAC or is each room going to have seperate units, or do you intend on using a main trunk in the hallway and then branch off into each room? I'm not really familiar with HVAC so, I shouldn't really be giving advice on it ;) but if you supply some more information, then i'm sure someone will. looks like a fun project, good luck!

It'll be a central ac branching off into each room. The layout of the building wouldn't allow for indivifual ac, I don't think. It's a high building, so there's room up top.

Bzzump. Since this thread has gone onto the second page, I figured I'd bump it back and hopefully get some considered opinions. Construction starts soon!

Final bump. Thought I'd see one more time if anyone wanted to pitch in, idea-wise.

Hey, Greenlander, I've just been lurking for a few weeks. You and I have several things in common: We're both in Brooklyn. (If your space is where I think it is, then I live about 6 blocks away!!) I just completed 19 rehearsal spaces in a warehouse near there. Actually I only built 5 of them. I came in after the owner and original contractor had a falling out. We developed a different design for the remaining 5 rooms as the first 14 had some issues (parallel walls, connected top and bottom plates, sound leaks at floor and ceiling, among others) and were met with better sound isolation room to room, as well as less bleed to exterior. This is the 5th studio/rehearsal space I've participated in building, here and Ohio, so I have some experience/knowledge. But, after lurking here for a few days, I realize I know alot less than I imagined, altho it's been fairly easy to comprehend most of what I'm reading. I have been an independent contractor for 10 years, and specialize in no particular aspect of construction (hence, my username) and, with my last project completed, I'm looking for another sound/music related project instead of another bathroom, another kitchen remodel. :evil: PM me if you are interested in getting together to discuss your project, and perhaps an interview. Thanks, Curt

greenlander wrote:

I realize, however, the sheer amount of rehearsal rooms mean that a good quality construction will be needed, even if the bands I hope to attract aren’t as discerning as some. And I need to be careful and efficient about the techniques I use. So with that in mind, here are my current construction specifications for the rooms.

Hilarious!!

3. My room doors seem like a weak point. I believe the estimated stc from that thread was 40, just as an indicator. That’s much less performance than I should get out of the walls etc. I’m wondering how much of an issue this will be. Since the doors lead to the corridor rather than another room, will this mitigate the damage done in having a weak link? If two rehearsal room doors face each other in my original plans, should I try and stagger them in a similar way to electrical outlets between rooms?

Not a bad idea to stagger, tho i'd say not necessary. More important to treat the doors effectively. That was one thing I was hired to do for all 19 rooms.

4. I had assumed that the best way to approach a ceiling was to try and replicate the walls (abeit with the appropriate studs for the load and insulation for the studs), so that it doesn’t become a weak link overall. But is this the correct approach? I read a suggestion in a thread here that another approach might be to switch to one layer of drywall on the inside of the ceiling and three on the outside and this might act as a bass trap. Might this be a good option? Unfortunately I can’t find that thread anymore so I may have misremembered or not taken something into account.

I can see some logic in this design. I don't know the 'correct approach' for certain except for the zigzaging of wall/ceiling layers.

5. Can anyone elaborate on the HVAC requirements? I’ve read a bunch of threads here, but most relate to smaller builds and much smaller units. I’m wondering if the sheer amount of rooms I’m linking is going to cause real issues. I wonder if there is any ducting configuration that might be more efficient for my purposes, sound-wise?

A knowledgeable hvac contractor can set it up. The config would be very similar to an office space or most commercial space with multiple rooms, with the addition of sound treatments.

6. Is there an element to the overall room specifications that strikes anyone as a particular weak link? Am I wasting materials and money on some element of the room only to lose to performance elsewhere?

I'm assuming you left space for a bathroom (or 2!! You and I both know how 'undiscerning' bands like to drink!) What about an office? Has your plan changed?

curt, laughed my ass of on yer icon/animated gif (rING!). haha, wot up BJ... pizza?

underspecialization wrote:

greenlander wrote:

I realize, however, the sheer amount of rehearsal rooms mean that a good quality construction will be needed, even if the bands I hope to attract aren’t as discerning as some. And I need to be careful and efficient about the techniques I use. So with that in mind, here are my current construction specifications for the rooms.

Hilarious!!

3. My room doors seem like a weak point. I believe the estimated stc from that thread was 40, just as an indicator. That’s much less performance than I should get out of the walls etc. I’m wondering how much of an issue this will be. Since the doors lead to the corridor rather than another room, will this mitigate the damage done in having a weak link? If two rehearsal room doors face each other in my original plans, should I try and stagger them in a similar way to electrical outlets between rooms?

Not a bad idea to stagger, tho i'd say not necessary. More important to treat the doors effectively. That was one thing I was hired to do for all 19 rooms.

4. I had assumed that the best way to approach a ceiling was to try and replicate the walls (abeit with the appropriate studs for the load and insulation for the studs), so that it doesn’t become a weak link overall. But is this the correct approach? I read a suggestion in a thread here that another approach might be to switch to one layer of drywall on the inside of the ceiling and three on the outside and this might act as a bass trap. Might this be a good option? Unfortunately I can’t find that thread anymore so I may have misremembered or not taken something into account.

I can see some logic in this design. I don't know the 'correct approach' for certain except for the zigzaging of wall/ceiling layers.

5. Can anyone elaborate on the HVAC requirements? I’ve read a bunch of threads here, but most relate to smaller builds and much smaller units. I’m wondering if the sheer amount of rooms I’m linking is going to cause real issues. I wonder if there is any ducting configuration that might be more efficient for my purposes, sound-wise?

A knowledgeable hvac contractor can set it up. The config would be very similar to an office space or most commercial space with multiple rooms, with the addition of sound treatments.

6. Is there an element to the overall room specifications that strikes anyone as a particular weak link? Am I wasting materials and money on some element of the room only to lose to performance elsewhere?

I'm assuming you left space for a bathroom (or 2!! You and I both know how 'undiscerning' bands like to drink!) What about an office? Has your plan changed?

Hi Curt, Thanks for the reply, funnily enough I happen to know a rehearsla space of approximately 19 rooms that was recently completed. I also know about many of the shortcomings of the original design. I wonder if it was the same one? I've been in a few rehearsal rooms in Brooklyn, so if you've done 5 I'm thinking there's a good chance I've been in one of yours, over and above the place you just finished. At any rate, I'm gonna send you a PM with my contact details. We should talk.

Ro wrote:

curt, laughed my ass of on yer icon/animated gif (rING!). haha, wot up BJ... pizza?

Yep! It's a good one. "Violent pizza!" more at milkfat.com Thanks GL. I'm looking forward to it.

greenlander wrote:

5 rooms: 10’ x 10’ 9 rooms: 10 x 15’ 8 rooms: 10 x 20’ The building has high ceilings, so I was planning on going for either 10’ or 12’ height in all rooms. Adjacent room studs are to have a 4” air gap, giving a total of 12” between rooms.

square rooms - or rooms with dimensions that work on factors of 2 - are acoustic nightmares............. add a 10' ceiling to that 10x10 room and it's even worse. so your 10 x 10 and 10 x20 rooms should be redesigned......... By the way - a 4" air gap with 2x4 walls would leave an 11" air space between rooms - not 12".

Walls as per standard double stud construction, pic attached: 1/2” Sheetrock 5/8” Sheetrock 2 x 4 steel stud R13 Insulation 4” Air Gap R13 Insulation 2 X 4 Steel Stud 5/8” Sheetrock 1/2” Sheetrock

forget the 1/2" drywall - although you can get a little bit of bang using different sheets on differing sides - the gain is so small that it isn't worth the cost of the added labor you'll pay your contractor for mixing and matching.

Ceilings: My original intention was to replicate the walls in terms of the amount of sheetrock on either side of the ceiling studs with the appropriate insulation.

By this I assume you mean that you are planning to construct your ceilings bearing on your new walls - and then the same number of sheets of drywall as on the walls......... That being the case - yes that's ok.......

Floors: My current floor appears to be very thick concrete and at grade. After reading the floating floor sticky, the various links to other threads and Rod Gervais’ writings on the topic, I decided to leave it be.

Actually - I recommend isolated slabs at a minimum between adjacent rooms - otherwise the floor will become your weakest link..........

Doors: My original intention was to use a single solid core door. After reading the Installing a door’ thread in the reference section, I figured I’d be better off with a hollow core door with 5/8” MDF on each side with veneer plywood. Probably doesn’t work out too much different in price either, hopefully. I’ve also changed my mind about the lock I was planning on using and have an idea for a surface mounted one.

Sorry - but this would be a big mistake,,,,,,,, you would be much better off with solid core doors and properly gasketed for sound..... in addition - you have these doors dumping into a means of egress corridor - they will probably be required to be rates tested assemblies - and you can't achieve that with custom built doors - they have to come from a certified supplier - and you can't modify them once you have them or you void the certification.

HVAC: This is the area I’m still most clueless in, especially considering the amount of rooms I’m dealing with. It was suggested to me that I use a flexible duct system to go from central insulated steel ducts. The flexible duct would have the appropriate angles

I would suggest that this is an area where you should get a professional engineer involved in your design. In a building this large - you can actually have cooling required on the south side of the building - and heating on the north at certain times of the year (we deal with this all the time in hotels) - and thus you should probably have a minimum of 2 systems if dealing with split systems........ BUT - it might also make sense to have 3 pipe system supply a series of individual fan coil units for each space - that way you would avoid any problems with interconnecting the rooms via ducts - and you could satisfy the fresh air requirements with simple small individual fans to provide fresh air and exhaust - all piped with small 4" round duct. Another advantage to this approach (with these types of rooms) is that you don't have large systems running when rooms are not occupied........ remember - in here - in practice rooms - you don’t have the noise threshold you require in tracking rooms or control rooms - where any additional sound screws up a recording - so a fan running relatively quiet (about what you would hear in a hotel room) wouldn't bother anyone at practice - even though it would if recording.

2. Although the consensus seems to be that floating a floor when you’re on thick concrete at grade is unnecessary or even unhelpful in certain applications, most of the discussions seem to center on whether noise will reach upper levels of a building from a foundation through the walls or adjoining buildings through the shared concrete. In my case, I have a high density of rehearsal spaces within the same building. Can I expect significantly worse noise transmission through the concrete?

See my comments above regarding this......... and look at the link http://www.greengluecompany.com/underst ... gNoise.php [/quote] 3. My room doors seem like a weak point. I believe the estimated stc from that thread was 40, just as an indicator. That’s much less performance than I should get out of the walls etc. I’m wondering how much of an issue this will be. Since the doors lead to the corridor rather than another room, will this mitigate the damage done in having a weak link? If two rehearsal room doors face each other in my original plans, should I try and stagger them in a similar way to electrical outlets between rooms? [/quote] See comments above - and stagger the doors........

4. I had assumed that the best way to approach a ceiling was to try and replicate the walls (albeit with the appropriate studs for the load and insulation for the studs), so that it doesn’t become a weak link overall. But is this the correct approach? I read a suggestion in a thread here that another approach might be to switch to one layer of drywall on the inside of the ceiling and three on the outside and this might act as a bass trap. Might this be a good option? Unfortunately I can’t find that thread anymore so I may have misremembered or not taken something into account.

Not a good option - best option is to seal the room - and remember that you do not need to treat these rooms to the extent that you do recording studios - they are only for practice so you really just have to tame them down a bit.........

5. Can anyone elaborate on the HVAC requirements? I’ve read a bunch of threads here, but most relate to smaller builds and much smaller units. I’m wondering if the sheer amount of rooms I’m linking is going to cause real issues. I wonder if there is any ducting configuration that might be more efficient for my purposes, sound-wise?

read above.......

6. Is there an element to the overall room specifications that strikes anyone as a particular weak link? Am I wasting materials and money on some element of the room only to lose to performance elsewhere?

no - all in all you seem headed on the right tract - with some minor modifications..... BUT - there are a few things you need to modify to get through this....... 1st - you are going to have to hire an architect to clean this all up for you....... your basic concept is ok - but your corridors look like they're about 3' wide - and this won't meet handicapped requirements....... I don't see public toilets - which will be required by code........ you have a dead end corridor (2nd from the left edge of building) that looks like it exceeds 20' - which could be a problem....... I would imagine the City is worse than CT - here I can design up to 5,000 sf buildings without a stamp - and that building is over 5,000 s.f. gross... so I would need all of the trades (FIRE ALARM - SPRINKLER SYSTEMS - HVAC - ELECT - PLUMBING - ARCHITECTURE) all designed by professional engineers and architects....... so you're probably quite a ways away from beginning on construction unless you plan on doing this without permits - which I wouldn't recommend....... I hope this all helps....... Rod

Thank you Rod, that is a huge help. You'll be happy to hear that you'd already answered one or two of my questions though my recent purchase of your book. Your ac answer is expecially thought provoking, in fact I had been throwing a few options around but hadn't thought of the three pipe system you mentioned, which, now that I thik of it, has many advantages. Now for the bad news .....how much it costs. We'll see what the ac guy says. I'm doing everything by permit and I have an engineer, although he's a little hands-off, so I'll try and change that. The original layout was pretty poor on my part, but believe it or not, every corridor conforms to the size and dead end requirements of the NYC building code. And in fact an existing bathrooms in the space will be slightly spruced up to provide the appropriate facilities. I'll probably turn this into a construction diary thread or start another one so people can take a look at the progress if they're interested.

Hey guys, something else has come to mind that I don't know how to deal with. Actually many things are, but I keep coming back here and searching and looking at Rod's book. But I'm stumped by this one. As you can all see from my original post layout, I have many adjoining rooms. In the case of a wall that's facing a corridor, I intend to put drywall on the outer side of the internal wall studs, so there will only be single studs between the rooms and the corridor. This means however that adjoining rooms will be joined by the corridor drywall, therefore flanking. What possible solutions are there to this? I guess it would involve some sort of break in the drywall at the dividing line, but of what description and using what materials, I'm not sure.

Hi I am starting to build a few rehearsal rooms back accross the pond. A few wee questions fo ya. if you dont mind. 1. I understand the wall seperation i.e mass air mass, are your ceilings supported by your stud walls. 2. If so will there be 2 layers of drywall inside the rooms(walls and ceilings) and on top of the ceilings another 2 layers . 3.How do you seal around the edges of the ceiling that are in the space above. Steve