Hey guys, from what I heard, and as you can observe on the picture of the building, there are windows in the "Sunday school room" into the brick wall. When Eruss got up above the ceiling he saw a massive amount of space above our 2x4's that form the ceiling. That means that most of the sound is coming from ABOVE rather than transmission through the slab or the walls. Going back to the windows, some of the mid-high frequencies are coming from or through the windows. They are thick but most likely not properly isolated. I don’t know if Eruss mentioned this, but we both think most of our sound is coming from up above more than anywhere else. I will post a picture of the space i am talking about over our ceiling. (its looking up through the hole, to that space i mentioned) You can see the wall, and the metal studs going up. Up there is just allot of free space, and mostly no isolation between rooms.
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http://www.katellachurch.com/studio/images/DSCF0900.JPG
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Sorry for the link, its the only place I have the image, my camera is not with me.
No category for this but it is the same stuff
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 8182.
How is this Knightfly? Its taking from your design.
CORRECTION: Kendale
Aloha,
That's much better, you're getting the idea. :D Here's a couple of revisions to consider: - front/center soffit walls/lower halves - cloth covered absorptive facing on baffle to reduce reflections from your console - if your speakers are active, you will want to include some vents to allow for adequate cooling - side slat wall angles - you will want to angle them both of them in towards the front of the room rather the rear to help direct reflection behind you. - rear wall absorber - absorptive floor to ceiling (no hardwood panel section) Here's the skp of the control room.How is this Knightfly? Its taking from your design.
Ya, thanks for the diagram, I really love that wall soffis thing, read up that other thread that you posted; ate up all that knowlege :P
I was working on that SKP when I checked this thread, and noticed that you posted some suggestions. I pretty much took those ideas from your other thread, and before I knew it, lol you were suggesting them to us, which is cool. I hope this is getting really HOT, and if so, what else should we change before we go ahead and finalize the ideas. I will have more pictures of the building, but from talking to Eruss I guess we kind of partly gave up the obsession of completely blocking out every single little noise; seems impossible, but we will do the best we can for best results.
Sorry for the mixup, :oops: and thanks for the compliments 8)
mm, you're CR should be different. The desk stand on the wrong side with this design... read: the angeled wall on the left side should be inverted. You want reflections going to the back of the room, not return to the desk.
something like this:
front
/---\
/ \
/ \
---------
back
I have gotten many suggestions, and I am waiting for another one from Kendale. That makes since, but since I already made the SKP and the mods he asked for. What is 'CR'?
I’m going to post my current layout and design, and hopefully you all can get a better understanding of our situation. Pictures and links to photos are posted on the previous pages. The posted pictures are just ideas and should be treated like ideas.
These are for the most part not set in stone, thus suggestions are welcome considering they are not expensive, perform well, and look good. Thanks in advance for any suggestion, and Id like to thank the John Sayers forum, the people that contributed to the making and the concept of this design, and especially Kendale :D (No Eruss, you are not forgotten. U Da MAN!)
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And as always, SKP file is always available (Please consider; the .SKP file is very detailed, and will perform slowly even on a pretty good PC.) :!: :!:
CR=Control Room
I don't believe Kendale advised such design :(
But we'll prolly hear it from the man himself today ;)
ps. in such a small room ya don't really need Diffusers.
Well, its not exactly to his specifications. did some reaserch and it seems that what i came up with would work for the most part. We'l see what Kendale says, and what Eruss says, and then as I said earlier, changes will be made accordingly.
Aloha,
Well, I must say this; it looks like you've got a pretty good handle using skp. :wink:
As far as using diffusors in your particular application, while they may work in large room applications, due to the dimensions of your rooms, may I suggest that you would be served best in this situation by going back to the design posted in eruss 2a.jpg (page 1). And as you have noticed, the more detailed you get with skp, the slower it runs, thusly eruss 2a is presented with a minimum of cosmetics.
The layout is based on principles gleaned from John's years of experience in designing and building professional recording studios which he has graciously shared with the rest of us on this forum & the SAE site. As such, much of the guess work of the geometry of the rooms, construction techniques and materials, acoustic treatments, and what really works and what doesn't, have been eliminated for the most part.
In real world applications, some of the obvious benefits for us is that it (hopefully) saves us the unnecessary time, effort, $$$, frustration & disappointment in pursuing non-beneficial and/or untested methods & materials, which allows us to concentrate on more important things, of which making and recording music is among. :D
Backtracking a little here:
Eruss, I believe that when Steve wrote:I don't understand why you say a floating floor is not cheap. You need neoprene, (which I can get cheap) and wood studs and plywood and hard wood flooring right? What is so expensive about that?
the method he was referring to is to float a separate concrete slab rather than a constructing wooden platform on top of your existing floor – provided that you have had the necessary engineering/permits/the existing floor can handle it/approval by the property owner/adequate funding for. This is the kind floor mass needed to help achieve the level of isolation you’re after when you say;if you're gonna kill traffic rumble, this is one of the times when a floated floor MAY be necessary. It's not cheap, but super-low frequencies can't be stopped by wimpy means - hence, the questions about budget and allowable modifications.
And this kind of mass is more often than not, a sizable investment. Again a properly floating floor is only one of the pieces of the puzzle, albeit an important one, not to mention proper wall construction of both exterior & interior walls, ceilings. A compromise in any of the parts of the puzzle, will result in a compromise in isolation.I just know I don't want to pull up my mics and here the street noise.
Perhaps the attached pics will help shed some light. Aloha 8)Also, I do not get exactly how to construct the side panels in the sketch you gave me. Corner bass traps I think I get, but the angled walls or what ever they are, I still don't understand.
Are you suggesting to go back to that design if we want defusion or go back because the current design isn't as good?As far as using diffusors in your particular application, while they may work in large room applications, due to the dimensions of your rooms, may I suggest that you would be served best in this situation by going back to the design posted in eruss 2a.jpg (page 1).
Oh, I see, thank you for clearing that up. I guess I don't mind street noise that bad. hahaha :P I did speak with some acustical enginears yesterday. I am meeting with one today. Just from talking with them on the phone they don't think the cars and trucks are vibrating the slab. I also visitid a freind of mines studio yesterday who is also near a main road. It is a multi million dollar facility. He said they only get street noise if a very large truck comes through the parking lot. I know how this studio was contructed because I saw the construction go up. I am less worried today than I was before. If we move the CR where the ISO room is and visa versa plus double dry wall and seal it well I think now that we will be ok. The only question I have now is to bare the expense of Green Glue or not. Also I think we should not try to make our so called live room live. With a 5000 sqft church sanctuary only 25 ft away complete with a 7ft Kawii grand and lots of live real natural reveb, why not just go for Isolation next to the control room and work on baffling up the church santuary and use that as our live room. Not to mention that we could, if needed, on occation also use the sunday school room if we had to. The only restiction there is that we can not treat the room accept for moblie baffles durring recording which will be removed after recording. I would actualy like to start another thread with pics of the main sanctuary so you guys could give us ideas for baffling that large room. It might make a fantastic live room!the method he was referring to is to float a separate concrete slab rather than a constructing wooden platform on top of your existing floor – provided that you have had the necessary engineering/permits/the existing floor can handle it/approval by the property owner/adequate funding for.
It is? I don't see that. Our desk is in the front as you have depicted in your drawing above. Maybe I am missing something.mm, you're CR should be different. The desk stand on the wrong side with this design... read: the angeled wall on the left side should be inverted. You want reflections going to the back of the room, not return to the desk. something like this:front /---\ / \ / \ --------- back
NO, it's more like your desk is in the back. I'm talking about the side walls, the angle is reversed. The way you drew it, speaker reflections will return faster/easier. Having the side wall angled to the back, you'll reduce the amount of (early) reflections. So either move the desk, or change the side wall plan.
You're CR isn't symmetrical either, which wouldn't be hard to change in your design. I'd also angle the wall between CR and live room.
Oh yeah, now I see it. I thought you were talking about the angle of the desk. The desk in in the right place. The wall is at the wrong angle. We are probably going to move the CR to the other room anyway. No problem, thanks.NO, it's more like your desk is in the back. I'm talking about the side walls, the angle is reversed. The way you drew it, speaker reflections will return faster/easier. Having the side wall angled to the back, you'll reduce the amount of (early) reflections. So either move the desk, or change the side wall plan. You're CR isn't symmetrical either, which wouldn't be hard to change in your design. I'd also angle the wall between CR and live room.
Aloha,
In the interest of trying to be as gentle as possible, but as clear as can be stated: - the rooms (control room & live room) are too small for diffusion to be beneficial - the current design has some serious flaws in regard to controlling reflections and the acoustic treatment selection and placement The "look" of the room can be massaged somewhat in regard to cloth color, wood veneer selection and studio furniture. The room geometry (side wall angles, soffit wall angles, ceiling angle) as well as the methods of controlling early reflections and room resonances however, are less forgiving. Aloha 8)Are you suggesting to go back to that design if we want defusion or go back because the current design isn't as good?
Ok, thanks for the input. I changed the walls to be angles so the sound goes to the back where the diffusers and bass traps are. Keep in mind, the stone wall will do its part, and also the resonators on the wall will also help. I understand the room is small, and thats why we must be extra careful of the design and acoustics, and..... :D that is the primary reason why we posted on the John Sayers forums :D .
This modified design will probably be a bit closer to your concept Kendale. If you see any other flaws (im sure there are plenty) PLEASE point them out so they may be corrected. Dont worry about hard criticism, as long as it is folowed by advice; im no crybaby :oops:
And as far as SKP's go, I like to be very detailed and professional. The more details, the more ideas to improve. Thanks in advance.
Note: The right wall (window wall) will most likely be an entire resonator, I just didnt want to go through the whole lines thing again, so keep that in mind.)
Aloha,
Very good.I changed the walls to be angles so the sound goes to the back
Eliminate the diffusers, completely. They are not beneficial in your situation, and will be an unnecessary expense.where the diffusers and bass traps are
Replace stone wall with side slat wall absorbers design posted earlier. Both left and right side front halves of your room should be slat wall absorbers. While stone will indeed reflect sound, due to the size of your room, you will need to absorb as much mid-low freqencies as you can at the same time. Using a slat wall absorber is much more efficient use of your available space as it will help you accomplish both tasks (reflecting highs and absorbing mid-lows) at the same time. The back and rear side walls should be absorbers - floor to ceiling - which is basically the side slat wall absorber design minus the slats. The corner traps will help absorb some of the low freqs. You may find that more than one will be needed, thus the corner trap above the door as well as the trap in the corner. You will also want to center your monitors on the soffit walls between the intersection of the side slat wall and the center wall section.Keep in mind, the stone wall will do its part,
You are correct, sir.I understand the room is small, and thats why we must be extra careful of the design and acoustics,
Wise decision :wink:that is the primary reason why we posted on the John Sayers forums
It is my endeavor to help, not hinder, your studio build. "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."Dont worry about hard criticism, as long as it is folowed by advice
And your skp files are very well done, indeed.And as far as SKP's go, I like to be very detailed and professional.
Is this your current plan? Aloha 8)If we move the CR where the ISO room is and visa versa plus double dry wall and seal it well I think now that we will be ok.
Danny put the defusers because it was all he could make easily in the sketch up program.
None uf us here intended to use defusers. We intended to use them and the brick wall way at the beginning when we thought we might tear down the walls and make both rooms as one room.
We are way past that now.
Our demolition is complete if my young lad partner cleans up tomorrow like he promised. I have been the one doing the dirty work for the last two days with out him. It is his turn to get dirty tomorrow while I go off to some church meatings. :lol:
More pics to come soon.
You are right indeed Eruss. The stone was an early idea, and as he said, the resonators will be on both walls, left and right. There is a bass trap in the back right corner of the CR and I am trying to make it as deep as possible (possibly 6 FT deep, which isnt really realistic. Will do the best we can).
The monitors are not exaclty where they should be. I changed them in a later picture that I never posted, an besides give or take a few inches, the design is close, but NOT perfect at all. Many comprimises were made for times sakes, and due to the limitation of SketchUp. This was basicly more or less a visual idea of the room, and not exact down to centimeter acoustic perfection, again why we posted on this forum :D
Yes Eruss, I will go and clean up tomorow, but I cant stay more than 5 PM, I do have a life....
Did you come up with any improvements or suggestions to our design?
Note: The CR and the "Live room" are not switched yet, will have to change allot of things around due to the invert, and so thats why I kind of dont want to swap the rooms.
Based on the following chart that I found here in this site, should we consider tearing down our existing wood frames and adding three layers or gypsum to the metal frames of the original walls? Thus we would forget about wood frames all together accept to build the angled walls inside the metal frame.
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/pages/STC%20Chart.htm
:o
maybe I wasn't clear enough on the angled walls and use of diffusers in my earlier post, I'm glad you understand my point(s).
For the rest; the plan comes together more and more. good work.
After design and construction plans are "approved", move on to accoustics :)
cheers, ro
Well, really, our only option as of now is to build to acoustics. Meaning we must build everything, like walls as well as the resonators to the aditional angled walls; so generally speaking, its all in the same boat.
I noticed that no new posts have been published; does that mean that the design that is below is good for our situation? Do any other improvements need be noted? Please post any suggestions, or questions. Thank you
[b}Note: Remember, the stone wall, and the Right wall will all be covered with resonators.[/b]
But that 30' is separated by the lawn which is dirt and grass. So then, there is 30' of a dirt/ground buffer right? The street does not contact our building. I can't aford an acustical engineer. I have to make the best guess possible based on you guys feed back to me.You have a case where the roadway sits about 30' from your building - and not isolation form the low frequency road sounds (125 to 250 Hz roughly) might very well be bringing sound in through the slab. Sincerely, Rod