MISSION ABORTED!!

Ok, so I've been planning my studio construction with the help of you guys (http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7925 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8096) and Rod's book for some time and today was to be the beginning of construction. So I've got 45 sheets of 5/8" drywall and a bunch of 1x3, acoustic caulk, backer rod, etc. all ready to start the bulking up of the floor above the studio (pg 66 of Rod's book, adding mass to an existing floor deck between the joists). I even consulted a structural engineer (to the tune of $400+) to make sure my joists could handle two layers of 5/8" etc etc. Anyway, as I was about to put up the first piece of drywall it became painfully obvious that this just isn't going to be a real option. There is too much in the way as far as wiring, pipes, and duct work. Not to mention that there are a bunch of nails and staples sticking through the deck that would have to be cut or bent which I'm sure would have some unforeseen effect on the floor of the living space upstairs. All that being said, what's my next move? Do I put up insulation and then do a couple of layers of drywall screwed into the joists? That wouldn't end up being the ceiling of the actual studio as the actual ceiling will be separate (room within a room, you know?). So this is just for sound isolation purposes. Is it better to attach the drywall to the bottom of the joists (like a normal ceiling would be :wink: ) before doing my studio ceiling or to skip that all together? The reason I ask is because I know mass:air:mass is best, but I just don't think I can do that with the budget I've got ($10k for whole project). Suggestions? Thanks! Ben

As far as the nails and staples are concerned, you could use a sheet of closed cell foam insulation as your first layer of beef. It's lightweight, will allow the staples and nails to penetrate it, and it is solid in the sense that it will act as a wimpy layer of mass. It may also help to dampen resonance a little. The wiring, plumbing, and ductwork would have to be adressed separately; without specifics, there's not much I can offer. You may have to build around them. Sometimes a compromise involving some third leaf areas is necessary, in which case you can use more mass to compensate. Beef-up is indeed challenging, especially overhead. The only way to eat that elephant is pne bite at a time. Hang in there! :-) --Keith :mrgreen:

Thanks Keith, So what it sounds like you're saying (without saying it) is that adding mass to the deck is the only way to go. Adding the drywall to the bottom of the joists isn't going to give me good isolation. Correct? I started the planning of this project with the idea that I would do everything exactly how it's supposed to be done, but now reality is setting in a bit and I just don't think I can add these layers to my existing deck without an amazing amount of work moving things around. Really, my goal is to not hear footfall and such from the 'living area' floors. Anyway I can do this is fine with me. So is adding the drywall to the bottom of the joists going to provide any decrease in sound transmission? Ben

I haven't followed the links you posted at the beginning of this thread... But assuming you were planning a textbook-perfect two leaf system, and you're asking if you can get away with a three leaf system, the answer is, it depends. Sometimes three leaves are a necesary evil. We do our best to avoid them, but sometimes we're better served compensating for their weaknesses. The south wall of my project must be three leaves... Early on I discovered I had shear panels that I couldn't remove. Those shear panels are necessary for seismic stability. Shifting the shear panels to the opposite side of that wall would have meant a tremendous amount of messy demolition and reconstruction on the living space side... :evil: ...So I decided to live with a third leaf and I made up for it by adding more mass with constrained layer dampening on the last layer (Green Glue). There's now nearly 2½" of drywall on that middle leaf, plus the 3/8" shear panel OSB. With ceilings, it's hard to make up for the middle leaf deficit because adding that much weight can be dangerous. Study some more basement conversion threads here to see how others have faced challenges similar to yours. If you post pictures of your obstacles, you may get some responses with suggested workarounds. Two years ago, I used to think basements were ideal shells for studio construction projects... After seeing what you guys go through, I no longer think that! If I had a chance for a total do-over, dating back to our home purchase, I'd have sought property with a bit of extra land on which to build a new standalone structure from scratch. Hang in there... If you're committed to doing your project right, we're committed to helping you navigate the roough spots. :-) --Keith :mrgreen:

That's the info I was looking for. Thanks Keith. For the amount of transmission loss I'm looking for (not looking to keep the drum noise downstairs as much as the upstairs noise from coming down) I just can't justify the work and the cost of moving pipes, nails, etc. I'll check out what others have done in this situation and decide what kind of 3 leafer to go with. Any suggestions on threads to start with? Thanks! Ben

After checking out some prominant threads here, it seems like me going with a three leaf system would not be a good idea. It would probably be better just to do nothing and build my room. But that sounds like the easy way out! So I was thinking about beefing up between the joists and using your suggestion, Keith, about the closed cell foam insulation (got a good source?) for the areas with protruding nails/staples. Now my question is this: There are going to be some (small) spots where neither of these options will be possible. Does that negate the benefit of the rest of the 'beef'? aka If I can't beef up and seal the whole deck is it worth doing at all? Ben eagerly awaiting the ability to actually START construction :D

You're being too vague. Show us pictures and/or drawings and describe in detail what your obstacles are. There may be methods or workarounds we can recommend. --Keith :mrgreen:

You want details? Why didn't you just say so before!! (oh wait....you may have mentioned it about 10 times... :oops: ) The following are the main issues with the beef up between joists: There is a main HVAC duct running through the room which itself is not a problem (it's hanging below the joists), but above it in a place that is hard to get to there are multiple ducts and pipes going through to the above floor (see pics). Some of them I can work around by cutting the drywall as needed and then backer rod and caulk, but some are too small and difficult to get to. Also, there is an area where some kind of duct work called Thermopan is blocking all access to the joists. I really don't want to move any of the existing pipes or ducts as I've got enough to do already. Again, I was planning on bulking up between the joists with two layers of 5/8" drywall and my intention is just to keep footfall and noise from upstairs from getting onto my recordings. Remember, I will be building a new ceiling for the studio that will be completely decoupled from the existing joists. Also, Keith, what exactly did you mean by "closed cell insulation foam?" Is this the spray kind or something else? Where can I get it? I will post as many details as needed, just let me know what I'm missing to give you the picture. Thanks! Ben

I encountered similar nightmares during my beefup phase. I just had to spend more time on the detail work. (Although I love keith's idea about the closed cell foam - wish I'd thought of that!) My process was more like: - hours with clippers and an angle grinder removing nails and staples. - Detailed drywall cutting work around pipes / ductwork etc. I would also recommend considering green glue between your layers of rock. There were a couple of impossible areas to get "beef" into, but that fell into the "you live with what you have to" category. Feel free to browse my thread for pics etc. and good luck! Andy

Thanks Andy, Your thread was actually one that I spent the better part of a morning reading before posting about my problem. That's one of my big questions though...There are some places that I just can't imagine being able to get to. Does this negate the worth of the whole process? Is "just living with it" ok for this part? I'd be happy to just live with a few things during this phase as not living with it means a TON of more work. So any thoughts as to whether it's still worth it to do at all if there are spots that cannot be covered? Much appreciated Ben

benunh wrote:

Thanks Andy, Your thread was actually one that I spent the better part of a morning reading before posting about my problem. That's one of my big questions though...There are some places that I just can't imagine being able to get to. Does this negate the worth of the whole process? Is "just living with it" ok for this part? I'd be happy to just live with a few things during this phase as not living with it means a TON of more work. So any thoughts as to whether it's still worth it to do at all if there are spots that cannot be covered? Much appreciated Ben

Ben, Those areas that I was looking at - (with the duct work that is) you might as well be going beneath the joists anyway - adding the mass at the top of a bay where you then have duct penetrations to the floor above gains you not a whole lot - So yes - that's one of those areas where you just live with what you have - and play the cards you're dealt. Rod

Thanks for the input Rod. So are you saying I should skip adding mass at the top for the entire thing or just where the ducts penetrate? It seems to me that it's an either/or kind of thing, so I assume you mean just go with what will be considered a three leaf ceiling when all is done. Please let me know if I'm reading you correctly. Option three is of course, just doing nothing to the existing ceiling area (except adding insulation) and relying on my new joists with two layers of drywall for all the isolation from above. Thanks! Ben

First, buy Rod's book. I think what Rod was saying is: do a proper two leaf build whereever possible, and then only settle for three leaf where you must, such as under the large steel rectangular ducting area. The closed cell foam I referred to comes in sheets. Closed cell means air can't pass through it. Short on time... Keep studying here. :-) --Keith :mrgreen:

Thanks Keith Of course I've got Rod's book, that's pretty much a prerequisite for posting here! I kind of come off like an idiot on this thread, but if you check out my other two threads, I did my homework and posted tons of details on my project. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7925 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8096 I was just kind of looking for a quick, simple answer to this problem, but I should know by now that with studio construction there never is one! So what I'm understanding now, is that I should go on a 'bay by bay' basis. A bay that is clear will have mass added between the joists and a bay that has pipe obstruction will have mass added below the joists. Thanks for your patience with me on this one. It is a lot of work (and materials) to beef up a 27'x27' ceiling and I don't want to do it wrong. Ben

That sounds like a good plan, Ben -- and I would think stuffing the cavities that have obstructions with insulation would be good for dampening too. --Keith :mrgreen:

Every time I pick up a hammer I have another question/problem. I was about to implement the bay by bay beef-up (some bays beef between joists, some bays beef below joists) but then I saw something that made me pause. (see pictures) There are two bunches of wires that are run THROUGH the joists the entire length of the room. If I'm not mistaken, this would ruin the isolation aspects of beefing up some below the joists and some between. Is there a good way to seal these while still allowing the wires to pass? I thought about just putting all the beef below the joists, but if you'll notice in one of the pictures you can see copper water pipes running across the bottom of the joists as well. Everywhere I turn, AHHH!!! Another option: Just stuff everything with insulation and rely on my new ceiling for isolation (obviously less than a beefed up two leaf system, but how much less?). Thanks for your help (and for letting me vent a bit :) ) Ben

You do have alot of issues, but none that seem more than what some of us have to deal with. See my thread (Cavity filling..not the Dentists job) and you can see where i had to deal with power cables running through my studs where i needed to beef up. I am still working on the exterior walls, its very time consuming but i am about 75 percent done. Heres a trick to beefing up behind the cables with the drywall since its hard to get a full piece up behind the wires... Cut the piece so that you know it will fit in pretty close, then score the back of the drywall through the brown side paper top to bottom. You can then gently break the drywall and fold it over and get the piece to fit in behind wires when other wise a whole big piece would be unable to. When it fits in then you just flatten it out and if your careful, it will not fall apart and should re-align perfect.

Nothing insurmountable... But it will be a pain. Use of acoustic sealant in the wire holes directly adjacent to the "beef below joists" bays would take care of that issue. Pipes below the joists can be done by simply leaving a non- beefed strip for the pipe to clear, then overlapping with more beef over the pipe. I might be able to draw that up if you need me to. Mayme this will help. _____________ === O === =====

Yep, I follow you Keith. Seems so simple, but I guess I just get so frustrated I overlook the obvious solution sometimes. Thanks That takes care of those problems (I hope), so let me pick up my hammer again and see what else arises...:) Ben

Glad to help. :-) Don't feel bad... This stuff is anything BUT intuitive! --Keith :mrgreen: