Hello Everyone,
This is my first post here so bear with me.
First, thank you to everyone for this forum. I have learned alot by reading here.
I am just starting to setup my room for recording. I am doing recording only for myself and some friends.
My room is aprox. 12x15 with a ceiling height of 8ft. A standard residential ceiling and carpeted floor.
About the floor: I know that hardwood is great but I have alot of the snap-together laminate and could easily and cheaply install laminate.
Would their be any acoustical gain in installing laminate in place of the carpet?
Thank you for your time.
Laminate Flooring
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 7989.
I'm new here myself. But from what I've read, and have been told, you want a reflective floor, so my guess would be yes, as long as your room is treated, and possibly even if it's not. Second opinion?
Laminate is fragile or expensive or both... also if one part is damaged you have to redo the whole lot.About the floor: I know that hardwood is great but I have alot of the snap-together laminate and could easily and cheaply install laminate.
Thank you for your replies. If you get laminate at the right place it is really inexpensive and like I said I have alot of extra laminate so there will be little material cost. Laminate is much tougher than carpet - my cat has issues with carpet :).
So does anyone else have any opinions about laminate as it concens to acoustics?
Also, should I wait until I am done treating my room to install the laminate or would it be OK to go ahead and install it?
Thank you for your help,
I think there is common confusion between different types of 'parquette' flooring:
'Laminate' floor is simply strips of HDF (high density fiber) with a wallpaper (with a wood pattern) sticker glued to it and plasic lamination above.
This type of flooring is very inexpensive.
The true 'parquette' flooring is commonly called 'triple-layer' and is made from three layers of 2-3mm wood glued together (sandwich).
The top layer is laminate finished to protect the wood.
This type is about 4-10 times more expensive.
The acoustical coefficients are very similar - the 'laminate' is a little more reflective to HF.
'triple-layer' feels better to walk on, but should be maintained accordingly (it is a lot more sensitive to weight distribution, moisture, humidity, etc...).
'laminate' has a problem of static energy, and this is really annoying if you plan to use a lot of electric devices in the room.
Hope this helps.
Carpet should be replaced as it is too thick to be used as the underlay for laminate flooring. The flooring is easy to buckle when people step on it due to the thickness of carpet. The special underlay for the flooring should be 2mm or 3mm thick.
The quote below is from my Acoustics FAQ. This article may also be of interest: Surface ReflectivityWould their be any acoustical gain in installing laminate in place of the carpet?
SIDEBAR: HARD FLOOR, SOFT CEILING The following is from an exchange that took place in the rec.audio.pro newsgroup in May, 2003: Bill Ruys asked: Why it is recommended to have bare (un-carpeted) floors in the studio? One web site I visited mentioned that a bare floor was a prerequisite for the room design with diffusors and absorbers on the ceiling, but didn't say why. I'm trying to understand the principal, rather than following blindly. Paul Stamler: Carpet typically absorbs high frequencies and some midrange, but does nothing for bass and lower midrange. Using carpet as an acoustic treatment, in most rooms, results in a room that is dull and boomy. Most of the time you need a thicker absorber such as 4-inch or, better, 6-inch fiberglass, or acoustic tile, and you can't walk around on either of those. Hence the general recommendation that you avoid carpet on the floor and use broadband absorbers elsewhere. Lee Liebner: the human ear is accustomed to determining spatial references from reflections off of side walls and floor, and a low ceiling would only confuse the brain with more early reflections it doesn't need. Everywhere you go, the floor is always the same distance away from you, so it's a reference that your brain can always relate to. John Noll: Reasons for having wood floors: they look good, equipment can be rolled easily, spills can be cleaned up easily, provide a bright sound if needed, sound can be deadened with area rugs. Ethan Winer: In a studio room, versus a control room, a reflective floor is a great way to get a nice sense of ambience when recording acoustic instruments. Notice I said reflective, not wood, since linoleum and other materials are less expensive than wood yet sound the same. When you record an acoustic guitar or clarinet or whatever, slight reflections off the floor give the illusion of "being right there in the room" on the recording. It's more difficult to use a ceiling for ambience - especially in a typical home studio with low ceilings - because the mikes are too close to the ceiling when miking from above. And that proximity creates comb filtering which can yield a hollow sound. So with a hard floor surface you can get ambience, and with full absorption on the ceiling you can put the mike above the instrument, very close to the ceiling, without getting comb filtering. Dave Wallingford: I've always preferred wood floors for a few reasons: 1) It's easier to move stuff around, 2) You can always get area rugs if you need them, And the main reason: 3) Pianos sound like crap on carpet.
Both flooring options have pros and cons.
Installing laminate flooring over carpet may result in the manufacturer denying any warranty rights. As with any type of flooring be sure to follow the manufacturer's recommendations for preparing the subfloor and for installing laminate flooring.
Thanks to Ethan Winer for that response to this question. I was wondering whether to go carpet or laminate myself, and I think this convinced me to go with laminate. I like that it sounds better, and it is easier to clean.
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audiofyle - don't post spam signatures else you'll be banned.
Hi,
You could use a circular saw or jigsaw but you have to be careful that on the upward angle that you don't split and chip the edge - I suggest that you use a stanley blade and cut into the surface on the good side of the cut and when you use the CS or JS that you cut up to the stanley blade cut and you will not chip the edge.
It is a delicate maneuver so take it slow
regardsEvelynArado
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I would highly recommend vinyl - Novilon or other linoleum type flooring.
It is acoustically very similar to laminate flooring but is in general much easier to maintain, will not have sections that squeak, is very inexpensive, its quickly and easily laid, and can be had in any finish you could desire from stone tiles through marble, metal armour and grating, to wild abstract art, and on up to the more traditional laminate and other hardwood flooring.
The only caveat I would suggest keeping in mind is to avoid products which are too soft and mushy as chairs and stools as well as heavy furniture will creat depressions - although these will disappear as the product recovers - just something to keep in mind.
I'm installing a lightwood laminate novilon which has a 3D textured surface - you really have to get down and explore it with your fingers to know it's not wood.
There are many different kinds of laminate flooring and most will come with instructions specific to that type and brand. For households and offices which require a low maintenance flooring solution, laminate flooring has been known to be an effective choice for its attractiveness, durability, ease of installation, as well as for its reasonable price when compared to many other flooring options.
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A vinyl print decals or wall paper is great to use.. they just have a right thickness to fit on any surface type.
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The major reason laminate is a better option than the carpet is that carpets can get pretty shabby under heavy wear. & the studio areas do get heavy wear, there is a lot of motion always going on in such a small space, much more than in a normal living room
Generally speaking, there should be some good reflection in a studio room, otherwise it just sounds too dead. But that reflection can be broken up by having irregular surfaces, & irregular floor doesn't work well for walking on. And the acoustic drawback of carpet is that it absorbs at high and mid frequencies, but not the low frequencies. So having too much carpet may bias a room towards the low end, And may make it acoustically 'heavy'
No, that's not the major reason why carpet is not used on studio floors. There are many, many carpets designed for high traffic, that can take a beating and not show it, so those would work fine in studios, if what you claim is true. But it isn't. The major reason why carpet is not used in studios, is because it has the exact opposite acoustical properties of what is needed for most rooms. Carpet absorbs highs very well, mids randomly but decreasingly well as frequency goes down, and does nothing at all to lows. What most rooms need is massive absorption in the lows, controlled, smooth and decreasing absorption as frequency increases , and practically nothing in the highs. That's why carpet is seldom used. It has the wrong acoustic properties.The major reason laminate is a better option than the carpet is that carpets can get pretty shabby under heavy wear.
Not true. Lack of reflection does not cause a room to sound dead: too much absorption will cause that, or insufficient diffusion. A room can be totally non-reflective but still very live.Generally speaking, there should be some good reflection in a studio room, otherwise it just sounds too dead.
That only works for high frequencies, not mids or lows. Sound waves are only broken up by objects that are comparable to the wavelength of the sound. Considering that low-mids have wavelengths that are already many feet long, you would need "irregularities" that are many feet in each dimension to break those up.But that reflection can be broken up by having irregular surfaces,
Wrong. The majority of rooms are ALREADY "biased towards the low end"! Carpet won't make it sound heavier. Instead, it will make it sound dull, boomy, muddy, and unpleasant. Now, since this thread is ten years old, has been dead for over five years, and has only been taken over by spammers since then, I'm wondering what your purpose is in adding more to it? Especially considering that you are blatantly ignoring the rules for even making a single post on the forum... - Stuart -So having too much carpet may bias a room towards the low end, And may make it acoustically 'heavy'
Not to kill something already dead, but I'd like to confirm my bias on another potential use for laminate flooring. I have a studio under construction, room dimensions of 17' L x 11' W x 8' H project/commercial with soundproofing and electrical complete. I am considering putting a bunch of {6"} 703 on the back wall and side walls which is CMU block construction to give me some absorption and decrease the time decay in the room as well as increase the low frequency absorption. What I am after is a "range limited" type of bass trap effect built into the whole wall.This would be built in addition to several 34" cut super chunks of either 703 stacked, or safe and sound stacked with netting every third of the height.
The wall absorption/construction would be:
6" to 10" of 703 glued to the wall and then 7mm to potentially 12mm laminate flooring to cover the 703. The intended use is that the laminate, which is mdf/plastic covering, would act as a membrane to reflect high and mid frequencies...
How practical and effective would this be?
Or would that thickness of laminate be a hard stop barrier to everything below 100hz?
Budget is flexible, accuracy below 100hz and effectiveness is paramount & primary.
If this is not feasible, what would be more effective? Again, I want to range limit the absorption effect, at the scale of a whole wall, to maintain mid and high frequency energy in the room. Iv'e thought of using pegboard, or other hard thin laminates, hardboard, birch plywood all 1/8" thickness, but would have to route out either slots or B.A.D. type of patterns, and then cover it with fabric to get it to look decent. Laminate looks better.
Thanks,
RAD
The basic concept is probably OK, but I would not try to glue 10" of 703 to the wall! Rather, just stack it in layers, or better still, build proper hangers. I'm not sure if you have seen this thread already, but take a look at how we did the rear-side walls on this studio: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21368 That's towards the end, but it might help you reading through the entire thread, to see the general process for tuning a room.The wall absorption/construction would be: 6" to 10" of 703 glued to the wall and then 7mm to potentially 12mm laminate flooring to cover the 703. The intended use is that the laminate, which is mdf/plastic covering, would act as a membrane to reflect high and mid frequencies...
It depends on how wide the planks are, and how far apart you space them: There's lots of things to take into account. With that room, those are tuned slots resonators, but the don't have to be.Or would that thickness of laminate be a hard stop barrier to everything below 100hz?
Like this? viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5842&p=40923#p40923 . is that the type of accuracy you are aiming for? :)Budget is flexible, accuracy below 100hz and effectiveness is paramount & primary.
All of those are feasible, and he all have different sets of pros and cons. A LOT depends on the actual room size and shape, and the design goals. As you can see from the Studio Three thread, it is possible to get excellent results, world-class, with careful design. We are heading the same way with that room. It's all about designing the room with the end goal in mind, then tweaking the tuning to where you want it to be by measuring it (acoustically) and treating accordingly at each stage. - Stuart -I want to range limit the absorption effect, at the scale of a whole wall, to maintain mid and high frequency energy in the room. Iv'e thought of using pegboard, or other hard thin laminates, hardboard, birch plywood all 1/8" thickness, but would have to route out either slots or B.A.D. type of patterns, and then cover it with fabric to get it to look decent
Thank you for all these valuable tips. I just started renovating my house.I think there is common confusion between different types of 'parquette' flooring: 'Laminate' floor is simply strips of HDF (high density fiber) with a wallpaper (with a wood pattern) sticker glued to it and plasic lamination above. This type of flooring is very inexpensive. The true 'parquette' flooring is commonly called 'triple-layer' and is made from three layers of 2-3mm wood glued together (sandwich). The top layer is laminate finished to protect the wood. This type is about 4-10 times more expensive. The acoustical coefficients are very similar - the 'laminate' is a little more reflective to HF. 'triple-layer' feels better to walk on, but should be maintained accordingly [SPAM LINK DELETED-SPAMMER BANNED] (it is a lot more sensitive to weight distribution, moisture, humidity, etc...). 'laminate' has a problem of static energy, and this is really annoying if you plan to use a lot of electric devices in the room. Hope this helps.
Superb Information!!!