Stucco?

One of the things I was thinking about in my studio, is on the wall with the single window, where there are two ceiling slants, is to skim the plywood with stucco, or use those lightweight fake bricks. Why? Because I think it adds to the ambience and atmosphere from a comfort perspective. But, it would be on the right side of the mixing environment, and not in front, or back, of the console table. Is this a really dumb idea? If so I'll pass on doing this, but I happen to be in a position to acquire fake bricks and the steel screw-on rails for next to nothing, and have more than enough to cover this strange wall. So, tell me its pretty but acoustically stupid ;-) I've attached the wall in question...

That reminds me, I have to remove the radiator real soon so I can insulate behind it and get rid of the two dead mice that I can see, but can't get my arm in there to yank them. Bleah.

OK, you asked - it's a dumb idea :? Seriously, if you're talking about a mix environment you need as close to TOTAL PLANE SYMMETRY as you can get. If there's enough room to splay walls too, great - otherwise, maybe angled slot resonators each side in front (deeper at front of room, so they reflect to the rear and away from mix position) Your ceiling is already good for RFZ, but I'd try to keep the room balanced left to right... Steve

OK, you asked - it's a dumb idea :?

I figured. I had to ask though, I like brick, and this stuff is very cheap, and very light.

Seriously, if you're talking about a mix environment you need as close to TOTAL PLANE SYMMETRY as you can get. If there's enough room to splay walls too, great - otherwise, maybe angled slot resonators each side in front (deeper at front of room, so they reflect to the rear and away from mix position)

My first iteration will have foam, just because I have a lot of foam in the attic also acquired cheaply (auralex), and if that doesn't work out I'll be building some slotted resonators and angle them accordingly.

Your ceiling is already good for RFZ, but I'd try to keep the room balanced left to right... Steve

Cool, the ceiling is an irritating accident, actually :)

"the ceiling is an irritating accident" - So was vulcanizing rubber, and Reeses Peanut Butter Cups (if you believe the ads, in which case I've got a great deal on a bridge for ya) :? ... Steve

knightfly wrote:

"the ceiling is an irritating accident" - So was vulcanizing rubber, and Reeses Peanut Butter Cups (if you believe the ads, in which case I've got a great deal on a bridge for ya) :? ... Steve

I'm probably closer to said bridge ;-) I said accident because I was "assigned" this room when my wife and I bought the house, and I can't really complain because not every guy has a wife who encourages studio construction. Or car projects. Or racks of servers in the basement. And gig-E in every room of the house (except the bathrooms, of course). Irritating because the slanted ceiling has just been a pain in the butt to work with. But as of rihgt now, the first layer of plywood is on the slant, all is well.

Just curious - why plywood?

knightfly wrote:

Just curious - why plywood?

I thought it was a better choice than sheet rock, for a non-staggered stud design. I was going to apply two layers of plywood over the vapor barrier, all glued and screwed into the joists. Less vibration that way? More airtight? it won't be perfect of course, but I thought it was smart to do it this way.

I would have thought a double layer of drywall on RC would have been easier and more effective. ;) cheers john

You'd probably be better off now that at least part of the plywood's up, to put sheet rock over it and DON'T glue except where fasteners are. If the plywood's already got screws into the rafters, you'd be better off putting a layer of 5/8 sheet rock with seams offset, and just screwing that to the rafters as well. Normally I'd recommend NOT running fasteners through successive layers into wood framing because it adds to flanking noise - I probably explained most of this here fairly well - http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598 check out the first #4 and #5 points particularly... If you do decide to go with drywall, I'd look at that rental lift for sure - here's a chart of panel weights - Regular Drywall Panels. Panel Size Weight Lbs/SqFt 4' x 8' x 3/8" = ///45 lbs. //1.406 4' x 10' x 3/8" = //56 lbs. //1.406 4' x 12' x 3/8" = //67 lbs. //1.406 4' x 8' x 1/2" = //54 lbs. /1.6875 4' x 10' x 1/2" = //68 lbs. //1.6875 4' x 12' x 1/2" = //82 lbs. //1.6875 4' x 8' x 5/8" = //74 lbs. /2.3125 4' x 10' x 5/8" = //92 lbs. //2.3125 4' x 12' x 5/8" =//110 lbs. /2.3125 Firecode Core Panels 4' x 8' x 5/8" = /70 lbs. /2.1875 4' x 10' x 5/8" = /88 lbs. /2.1875 4' x 12' x 5/8" = /105 lbs. /2.1875 Gawd I hate trying to put charts up on BBS's - NEVER comes out right... Steve

If the plywood's already got screws into the rafters, you'd be better off putting a layer of 5/8 sheet rock with seams offset, and just screwing that to the rafters as well. Normally I'd recommend NOT running fasteners through successive layers into wood framing because it adds to flanking noise -

The plywood is screwed, and chaulked down on the walls with silicon chaulk (its clear). The ceiling plywood is screwed, and glued down with structural adhesive, which has the same consistancy as the clear silicon chaulk except when it dries, its a glue.

I probably explained most of this here fairly well - http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598

Okay, I shall go read.

Gawd I hate trying to put charts up on BBS's - NEVER comes out right... Steve

Yeah, it looked funny, but you know what? It was readable and thats what matters. Thanks! And you mentioned you thought the slant was an okay "feature". You do realize thats the front of the studio, meaning the backs of the monitors will be facing the ceiling slant.

Yeah, it looked to me like there would be an upward slant in front of your mix position and a downward one behind you? If so, the front one should "carom" the sound away from the mix position, and the rear slant might pose the need for some absorption to keep those reflections from getting back to the mix position in less than about 22 milliseconds (20 feet LONGER path length than the one to your ears) - Did I see it the way it is, or??? Steve

knightfly wrote:

Did I see it the way it is, or??? Steve

The ceiling slant is at the front of the room, my monitors and the console will be under the slant. The back of the room is open and about 20' in length, though if you're facing the ceiling slant, behind you on the right is a 3' wide ceiling slant that goes down, and the rest of the room is essentially one giant dormer, with 7-8' high ceilings depending where you stand. Want me to snap a few quick 320x240 pictures to give a better idea of the space? Would that help?

Thought ya'd never ask :lol: So, like, the rest of the room does NOT slant back down like the part in the pic? If so, even better... Steve

knightfly wrote:

Thought ya'd never ask

Well Steve, here ya go ;-) Attached to this post, is the floorplan. Ignore the specifics on the gear, some of it might change, but the overall placement is valid. The bottom of the diagram, across the entire width, is the ceiling slant.

Picture 1 of a bunch. This picture is of the lower, righthand corner in the diagram. You can see the door to the room, the left side of the slanted ceiling, and the 40" high corner, and the electrical switches.

Picture 2 of a bunch. This is the lower, lefthand corner of the diagram. I guess I probably should have rotated the diagram, huh? ;-) In this corner, are two white doors going to an insulated, chaulked, double layer of plywood storage area that I can crawl in. There is a small possibility that I might de-screw the plywood on the short wall under the slanted ceiling, move one stud over, and mount two 19" rack rails, to mount my recorders. Since I'm getting tired and lazy, I might just rack them somewhere else.

Picture 3 of a bunch. This picture is the side wall with the single window, which would be the left side of the diagram. The window is leaving very soon, it wasn't attached to the structure of the house but rather the cedar paneling with finishing nails, so when I pulled the paneling down, not only did the window start to come out, it also warped badly. I still have to yank the radiator and insulate behind it, then put it in before I start cranking the heat. You can also see that there is a slanted ceiling that extends into the room about 4' or so, I think its 51" actually once I put plywood or sheet rock on it, but the entire back of the room is one giant dormer. More on that in a minute ;-)

Picture 4 of a bunch (six?). This is the back corner of the room, showing the 7' high dormer edge. YOu can also see the eave/slant thing thats there. BTW its hollow, and I intended to use it as storage, or to mount gear in. This picture would be the upper left if the diagram. The floor which you can't really see has a 8' long stairwell across the back of the room (under the two windows) which I made my flip-floor vocal booth over. The vocal booth floor is still there, I took down the walls to get the ceiling out so I could reinsulate.

Back wall, which is the top center of the diagram. Two windows, one gets to be inside the vocal booth, one outside, based on where the stairwell and the flip-floor covers. Yes, I intend to make shudders to help isolate, but my vocal booth originally wasn't soundproof, the idea was just to cut down on the machine noise getting back into the microphone. Akai recorders are noisy beats, all things considered, and I have 7 of them plus the optical mastering recorder.

6 of 6. This picture is the side wall, and you can see the "sofa nook". This would be the left side of the diagram from the edge of the door up to the back wall. The ceiling above the sofa is going to be 7' flat all the way across, rather than an ascending slant from 8.5' in the center of the room down to 7' at the back wall (top wall in the diagram). This is because the bathroom (which you can see the shower plumbing and diverters in this shot) is intact and the 2x4 joists of the sofa nook go right into the bathroom, and I didn't want to destroy the tile ceiling in the bathroom. I should have, because its starting to fall apart anyway, its a 1941 bathroom, but not doing so made my wife happy. I epoxied the few tiles that fell and called it a day. Its not our main bathroom anyway, I use it more since its right off the studio. The wiring hanging down is cat5e (network) and the white wire is a power feed for the webcam that will be mounted above the sofa in the back corner (upper right of the diagram). This is on one of the wall switches so I can shut it off just by removing power and not have to go with my browser to disable it. Flip on, flip off, easy as pie. I haven't started insulating above the sofa nook as of yet, I have a little roof R&R to do there and I didn't want the insulation to get wet. The leak is minor, but I put it off until the end. I also have to pack insulation into the bathroom ceiling along the edge, staple the plastic in, the seal it up with plywood. There is one horizontal 2x4 missing (its been cut, drilled, and screwed in for fitment) which allows me to slid the insulation in, then I can seal it up and put on a plywood or sheet rock face. There you have it, panoramic view, lame-ass style ;-)

OK, that's where I thought you were talking about the slant being - near as I can tell, if you absorb the side opposite the slant, maybe with a couple of gobos for portability, the only other "gotcha" would be flutter between the two parallel side walls. Maybe a couple of John's slanted slat absorbers, from midway to ceiling? If they turn out to make things too bright, you could skin them with some front-mounted 703. You'd need a pretty good angle in that room to get RFZ going without just absorbing everything - probably in the order of 12-15" slope in a 48" panel - Before you committed to that, you could just lay up some scraps of plywood on each side of the room, stood off the wall at the front by the amount it takes to get around 20 degree splay on each. That should tell you whether it's worth it or not. The Side Wall Absorbers here are what I'm suggesting, only it doesn't look like you'd have room for them unless they were only the upper half of the room - http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm Gee it's fun to tell OTHER people what to build, it's not nearly as tiring... Steve

I'm suprised no one commented "what a friggen mess" ;-)

OK, that's where I thought you were talking about the slant being - near as I can tell, if you absorb the side opposite the slant, maybe with a couple of gobos for portability, the only other "gotcha" would be flutter between the two parallel side walls. Maybe a couple of John's slanted slat absorbers, from midway to ceiling?

I can do that. I also have auralex foam bass traps, and tons of 2x2 3" pyramid panels also. I planned to foam the short wall, and run bass traps in those corners, and up the slant corners just to tame the short wall a bit. The reason because is the monitor stands I have are essentially 2" pipe, with swivel adaptors (its a q-lock workstation I've chopped up) so I can swivel, tilt, and angle the monitors property. When I had the cedar paneling in the room, I did have my console against the slant and I found the room sounded SIGNIFICANTLY better just by sliding the monitors down the pole, about chest height instead of ear height, and angling them up at my ears. I ended up with a 7 degree angle off horizontal for the monitors, which sounded the best in the original, uninsulated space. What this did is put the monitor backs facing at the short wall, not the ceiling slant. I still had standing waves, but they were behind my sitting position thus impacted my listening position significantly less. Obviously with the remodel, different materials, different insulation, different distance from the short wall all this could change.

If they turn out to make things too bright, you could skin them with some front-mounted 703. You'd need a pretty good angle in that room to get RFZ going without just absorbing everything - probably in the order of 12-15" slope in a 48" panel - Before you committed to that, you could just lay up some scraps of plywood on each side of the room, stood off the wall at the front by the amount it takes to get around 20 degree splay on each. That should tell you whether it's worth it or not.

I can do this as well, it would be a good late fall project, so I'll give it a good try. BTW, looking at John's design, the slates appear to be parallel to each other. Is there an advantage to tilting the slats? Some up, some down, et al?

Gee it's fun to tell OTHER people what to build, it's not nearly as tiring... Steve

Of course it is! I do the same, though mostly with vehicle related stuff. Some of us like our toys ;-) In fact, this afternoon I'll be welding turbo flanges to 351W V8 manifolds ;-)

Windsor? Not Cleveland? Not a Ford man, but I thought Cleveland was "Da Bomb"? Probably 10 years behind on that one too... :roll: On the parallel slat thing - not according to Barefoot - he's convinced me that unless you put individual "septums" between sections of a slat absorber, the wavelengths are so long relative to the trap that they just average out anyway. If you wanted to do that just for the "wierdness" quotient, I doubt it'd hurt anything... Toys? Toys? Not me, man (check the pic) Got the stainless one's at Costco a while back - Now, if I can just find enough time to actually PUT stuff in these, maybe I can find it when I need it (not shown - another FULL top and bottom, and another top box, dozens of "totes" with stuff scattered everywhere) See, I'd be a hypocrite to comment on your mess (what mess?) :cry: Steve

Windsor? Not Cleveland? Not a Ford man, but I thought Cleveland was "Da Bomb"? Probably 10 years behind on that one too... :roll:

The Clevor is "da bomb", however it was made only in the early 70's, and wasn't an available option for my 93 F350 :) While there is a lot of hoopla as to which motor is better, "out of the box" the Clevelands produced more torque and power as a general rule, depending on the configuration and what it was in. But as far as I'm concerned, its all just raw material to work with. A 351W can produce a lot of power if balanced, blueprinted, heads and intake ported, proper tuning both in fuel and spark, etc. There always is more power available in any engine until you reach the limits of your mains or your head gaskets, and there are solutions to that as well.

On the parallel slat thing - not according to Barefoot - he's convinced me that unless you put individual "septums" between sections of a slat absorber, the wavelengths are so long relative to the trap that they just average out anyway. If you wanted to do that just for the "wierdness" quotient, I doubt it'd hurt anything...

I can do weird if it makes sense, but making angled slats is an awful lot of work so if its not going to buy me anything significantly, I'll make normal slatted resonators and call it a day. I visited a local furniture wood place and I'm thinking a nice light wood like Birch or oak. I love wood ;-) And you're going to scream at me, but I like the look of carpet so I'll be using some carpet here and there on the walls as a decor thing, knowing its going to eat the highs quite a bit.

Toys? Toys? Not me, man (check the pic) Got the stainless one's at Costco a while back -

Costo, huh? I've been looking for inexpensive cabinets for a while, because most of my tools are either on one of two work benches, the floor, my truck, or the basement. I have stuff scattered everywhere. I'll check out Costco to see what they have locally. The stainless is sure purty. The stuff Sears has is garbage. One tranny rebuild and the cabinets will be broken (I like the ones on casters, that have a work surface so i can bring the tools outside in an organized fashion, and have a work surface as well. This is why one of my workbenches (huge wooden office desk) has 6" pneumatic casters on it. I often wheel the entire thing outside and work on it instead of lugging heavy items into the garage on dolleys.

Now, if I can just find enough time to actually PUT stuff in these, maybe I can find it when I need it (not shown - another FULL top and bottom, and another top box, dozens of "totes" with stuff scattered everywhere) See, I'd be a hypocrite to comment on your mess (what mess?) :cry: Steve

heh-heh. I tend to be a slow while I'm working on a project, then I clean it up tidy afterwards. Its just that "in progress" work area looks scary, and because I have many projects going on at one time, progress is slow, therefore everything looks messy for a long time. Much to my wife's disappointment, of course ;-)