Need help with isolation between floors...

I'm going to be purchasing a building in Michigan that is going to have my studio and a retail space. The studio is going to be upstairs and the retail space on the first floor. There's going to be some loud bands, so I'm looking to increase isolation between the two. I was talking with an engineer and this is what we were thinking. The columns are also going to be supporting a new roof that's getting installed. Here's a plan that I was looking into. The column on the left will be running into concrete blocks in the basement of the building. The concrete floor will be supported off of the columns. The existing floor joists will stay and the will just hold the drywall for the space below. As far as budget goes, the engineer said that adding the new roof, new floor, and an elevator would run under $250K. So any other somewhat small added costs aren't really a problem. I was just wondering about the steel columns running through the space below and hurting isolation. Here is what the existing construction is and what it's going to become. If anybody has any insight into anything else I can do to increase isolation that'd be great. Thanks, Jordan Schulze

Aloha and welcome to the forum, Jordan :D A few thoughts come to mind: - Would the retail store happen to belong to you? - Can the upstairs floor support the weight of the proposed studio, equipment & clients? (This has been a recurring safety concern on the forum) - Is there any insulation planned for the airgaps indicated below the new studio floor and between the floor joists/retail ceiling? - Isolation between floors has been covered on several threads. Perhaps a search would be fruitful to gain more insight? Here's a great resource: Rod's book: Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/1598630342 ... pe_snp_342 Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

Hi, Thanks for the reply and yes, the retail store will also be owned by my partner and I. A structural engineer is designing the floor system, so weight saftey won't be a problem. I just need to tell him how much weight it needs to be able to support and they'll design to hold that much. I plan on putting insulation on top of the retail ceiling, but I'm not sure if there's anyway to put it under the concrete and if it'd even help. 703 or similar will also be going in the wall cavities. I've searched the forum quite a bit and I've also read Rod's book. This design is what I've come up with and just need some feedback on if it should work alright. Thanks, Jordan

Perhaps Rod can "weigh in" on this (no pun intended). ;-) I'll try to summons him with a private message. I'm a little concerned about the structure-borne flanking potential of those columns... :roll: ...One thing's for sure -- this is way over my head! :) It's very good that you've got a structural engineer involved in this from the get-go. 8) Welcome to the forum. :) --Keith :mrgreen:

The noise in the retail space is my main concern...it doesn't have to be completly isolated, but I'd like to get it as good as possible. The columns main purpose is to hold up a new roof that's being erected above the existing roof, so we can have some more ceiling space :D We were originally thinking about just reinforcing the existing floor off of the columns and when I asked how much we would have to reinforce it to hold concrete he said that we could just support a new concrete floor off of the columns. So it seems like the best way to go. The columns are going to be running into the bedrock below the basement, so I'm guessing most of the energy will be transfered into that. Perhaps boxing in the columns and filling the boxes with insulation will isolate them a little bit more than leaving them exposed. The existing floor space is 50' x 100' and the new ceiling/floor system is going to be 50' by 65'. I'm guessing there'll be 8 columns (4 on each side), so boxing them in wouldn't be a big deal at all. The area that isn't going to be under the new roof/ on the new floor is just going to be storage/lounge area. We were struggling trying to decide if we wanted to go with new construction or to renovate, but a pretty decent deal kinda fell into place with this building, so we're trying to make it fit our needs as best it can. The building is about 15000 sqf. 5000 of which will be studio, 5000 a retail space, and 5000 which will be a concert venue. The noise of the venue doesn't matter, because if there's a concert we just won't be recording (I'll be engineering both places so :shock: ) The building also just received a historic grant from the state to renovate it's exterior in a way that compliments the buildings history :D Here's a floorplan of what we're planning. Thanks, Jordan

Jordan, As long as the new structure never comes into contact with the existing - and as long as you construct (sound) wraps for those columns that attach to the existing but never touch the new columns - and it would help a lot if ytou would spray fireproof the new stel columns to a 2 hour fire protection (this helps to damp the steel quite nicely) then you are probably in pretty good shape for the downstairs..... BUT - i see a problem then with the outside world and your new "room within a room". This being that the new roof is directly coupled to the new concrete deck - and this will probably become your weakest link from the perspective of flanking noise...... How much of an issue is iso from outside the building> I don't like the symmetry that you designed into the tracking room - that should be asymmetrical - perhaps you can rework that area......... Rod

As long as the existing structure never comes into contact with the existing

:shock: Huh? :lol: fitZ

cadesignr wrote:

As long as the existing structure never comes into contact with the existing

:shock: Huh? :lol: fitZ

fitZ, brain fart........ Rod

Thanks for the reply, I can see if I would be able to have the new concrete deck built strong enough to be able to float concrete slabs on top of it or perhaps sand filled decks? Would that solve my flanking problem with the roof? or are there any other solutions that would help? It's in a downtown area, so I'd like to isolate it as much as possbible, but if there's another solution that wouldn't eat up as much headroom it'd be great. I"d been thinking about changing the tracking room to have another iso booth, so I'll figure something out for that and it shouldn't be a problem. Thanks, Jordan Schulze

Jordan, for a project the size and magnitude that you're proposing here - and seeing as you can attack it with a pretty clean slate - I would suggest that you should hire an acoustic engineer to join forces with your structural engineer to bring this all together. I could suggest an excellent gent if you wish - although if you know someone you could certainly feel free to use him if you felt mre comfortable. There are so many variables that I am not aware of - so manny little things I can't see that culdcome into play here - that I really don't feel comfortable making suggestions here where I am - (for all intent and purpose) "blind". Sincerely, Rod

plan on putting insulation on top of the retail ceiling, but I'm not sure if there's anyway to put it under the concrete and if it'd even help. 703 or similar will also be going in the wall cavities.

Although I'm not in the same league as Rod, II agree with him. Although here is another possibilit for rooms that need decoupling from the floor below. If this product meets your LF transmission loss criteria, it may save you a bundle. But you wouldn't know unless you measured the existing transmission loss under sound loads typical of what will be generated in your tracking/control rooms. At least from my perspective. http://www.kineticsnoise.com/hvac/kip.html They also have a system of pouring slabs on a resiliant fiberglass layer similar to Model Kip. This may work as well.. but I'm certainly no expert and I don't have the link. And then there is a jackup system as well, but I'm not sure it is applicable in your situation. Here it is though. http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/lsm.html fitZ

Hi, Thanks guys I really appreciate your input. I'm definately not against the idea of hiring an acoustic engineer. The only problem I can see is that I'm pretty much in the middle nowhere. How does one go about hiring an engineer? Do they just consult? do they travel to the site? How much are plans going to run? Thanks for all the advice, Jordan

Perhaps Rod can provide the recommendation he offered you, and then you can contact him and find out. :) --Keith :mrgreen: