Minneapolis Studio Design - humans win.

I've done my homework. My references include Rod Gervais's book, a few other books that proved to be less helpful, this forum continuously, many of the references supplied on this forum, and most tragically, trial and ERROR. I have a lot of respect for the amount of experience and expertise that John Sayers has. In April 2006, I posted a question about my studio's construction, http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6012&highlight=humans+win, and learned that I had a lot to learn. Since then, I have torn down the rock I put up, installed two layers of 5/8" inbetween the exterior existing wall studs and cieling joists, caulked each layer, and hung your typical R-13 insulation. The room is as air sealed from the outside world as I could make it. Details: Minneapolis,MN (on corner in residential area) Goals: (Mainfloor) properly designed, symmetrical control room, not particularly interested in a proper 5.1 setup, performance room as big as possible for mixed use, maximum isolation between performance room and control room, and necessary sound locks. NO iso rooms desired necessarily. (Basement) Pre-fabricated vocal booth that I've aquired(vocalbooth.com), lounge, bathroom, and storage. Music: Loud pop to quiet jazz. Budget: I've a remaining $20k (US). What I've done so far: Gutted the mainfloor down to exposed wall cavities, rocked with two layers of 5/8", walls and cieling, caulked with OSI-175, replaced bridging, sealed in plumbing, etc. that runs from the basement to the 2nd level (my living apartment... I live alone), blocked in all windows and rocked/caulked, added 5/8'' gypsum to existing subfloor/plywood, applied green glue, and another layer of 5/8th plywood. (I was under the impression that green glue on the floor would help with impact absorption since I am not floating or decoupling the live room and control room floors... although I haven't found research on it's effectiveness or longevity on floors) installed your typical R-13 insulation in exterior wall cavities. My exterior walls are now comprised of stucco, tar paper, 3/4" wood siding, 2 layers 5/8" gypsum, Certainteed R-13 insulation. My plan is construct an idependent frame for interior walls and cieling, spaced at least 1" apart from existing frame, comprised of (out-to-in) R-13 Insulation, 3 layers of 5/8" gypsum (attached directly to studs, hung 1/4" off of the floor, and caulked)(framing at 16" oc, 1/4" neoprene rubber under the frame, and 2 isolation clips supporting each wall) I have used a http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/calc/timbercalcstyle.asp span calculator to determine that I can use no.2 2x6 cieling joists to support the 7.5 psf of 3 layers of 5/8" gypsum because my maximum span would be less than 14'. As you can reference from the HUMANSWINLAYOUT .jpg below, my cieling height from floor to joist is 114" (which, due to some deflection should be considered 113") and to the face of the gypsum in the cavity, 122". I am considering finishing my floor with 1" hardwood. If I framed my cieling 16" oc, raised into the cieling cavity between joists 3 1/4", after the 3 layers of 5/8" are attached to the joists, my cieling height above the "new" hardwood floor would be 108 7/8", or ~9'1". FLOOR PLAN: Click Here To Download Sketchup File: http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=b142542bf0ac2d326efc137b25baf873 As you will notice in the layout below, there are 4 openings. Each door on the exterior walls lead outdoors and to the street thus making them primary sources of exterior noise. The other two openings are stairwells, the one on the right leads upstairs and is to remain open without a door, and the other leads to the basement wich will be fitted with a door. I did not include the current locations of HVAC points in the floor because I would like to come up with a plan that works, and re-route any ductwork that needs to be. I know I may recieve some criticism for this, but it's easy for us to move than stuff around because it's all in the basement and out of the way. Our plan is to install a mini split AC system and use the current furnace to move heat and fresh air. A fresh air exchanger will need to be installed. I NEED HELP WITH THE FLOOR PLAN! I have been tripping over details and ideas regarding the best side of the room for the control room. IF ANYONE CAN PLEASE PROVIDE THEIR OWN TAKE ON THIS ROOM, PLEASE DO AND HELP ME OUT! I have not yet achieved the proficiency and speed of drawing in sketchup, so please forgive me. As you can see, there are a few objects in the room such as pipes at mid-point, and a support beam and posts that I had to install. I would rather angle my cieiling as to block in the beam versus boxing around it. QUESTION 1- When trying to calculate room ratios and modes, how do you figure in angled cielings and walls? Should you average the height? In my layout, I will not have an easy box to plug in and calculate, how essential is exact accuracy in order to come out with a proper room ratio? QUESTION 2- How is it possible to ensure the sturdiness of new interior wall frames with neoprene rubber attached under them without putting any nails into the floor? Will the conjoining of all of the walls together at their sides and cieling joists along with Mason Ind. WIC Isolation clips sufficiently support them? What is the common practice here? QUESTION 3 - I've noticed the use of two sliding glass doors between live rooms and control rooms in some of John's designs. I am interested in involving that idea if possible, but am worried about isolation, not reflections. Has anyone used the double sliding door construction? Are you satisfied with the visibility over isolation loss ratio? QUESTION 4 - Again, if anyone is willing to help me out, I would so very much appreciate your idea of how I should lay this studio out. I will briefly summarize the details once again: - Double wall construction - Floor not floated, so flanking transmission between rooms in inevitable. - Control room (max), live room (max), any necessary sound locks - Doors lead outside, stairs up are without a doorway and open to the upstairs, stairs down will have a door. - Sliding glass doors between control room/live room considered but not set on it. This is the hardest part of the whole process for me... and I'd be very grateful if someone could give me some solid direction. Thanks, Lance

Lance - you could start from here maybe? cheers john

Any moderators or members able to answer my initial questions? Thank you John for your quick response and design. I'm very pleased by your idea, although some questions still remain and some new questions have arisen. QUESTIONS: The carpet covered riser in the back of the room is obviously for elevating a listening position for the clients and to provide some absorptive surface to balance out the reflective/absorptive balance of the room, correct? I've noticed that the control room ratio comes close to some recommended ratios that have proven to involve a low concentration of modes/low modal strength/advantageously spaced modes: How important is it to meet these recommended room ratios? Is it safe to say that as long as you come within close range you can treat the room accordingly to achieve relatively the same results? I feel like I'm not alone in this uncertainty... Cheers, Lance

Here is a take on John's suggestion. I filled in the live room and adjusted some of the wall details. I maintained an asymetrical layout with a LF absorber in the one corner. The live room and control room are totally decoupled from the existing shell and the entrance sound locks will be drywalled using RC. I am still working on cieling details. Most likely I will end up boxing around the support beam in the control room and will hang any necessary clouds. http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=9ec7c3235e8af3f41ed8d359559f54b2 Any thoughts? Lance

Now you are talking - I wasn't sure where your main entrance etc was. Maybe you could place a walk through booth between the control room and live room? cheers john

Maybe you could place a walk through booth between the control room and live room?

I wish I had about 10 more feet of space, but it's so small already, I don't think I can fit a booth in. I'm hoping that the live room can double as a rehearsal room for up to a five piece band. There will also be an upright piano in the room. So, I'm going to need the full 21'9" x 12' space. The good news is that there is a basement below that I will be using as well. That's where a lounge, bathroom, vocal booth, and whatever else I'll have room for will be. Running up and down stairs while recording that platinum vocal track will help get the blood flow going! In other news, it's fall in Minneapolis and the trees look beautiful. The music scene is hopping and picking up momentum. Life is good. later, Lance[/quote]

Here's a question I don't see answered in regards to exterior walls and sound locks. Under the MAM law: If you look at the pic below you'll see that I'm in question of whether or not to rock the inside of my perimeter (exterior) walls in the sound lock. Also, my original idea of having a double frame wall here would have to be omitted and the face of that (performance room) wall would be left as covered insulation as well. Thus, this would stay true to the Mass/Air/Mass law and the sound lock would act as the Air. However, I'm not sure if this is totally essential being that it's such a small space. Also, it doesn't seem right to not rock a second leaf of an exterior wall. Anyone? Lance

I hate to have to "bump" my posts, but I'm at a crucial point in which I could really use some answers if anyone knows them. I can't seem to be able to find answers to these questions in any of the other posts. Any help? Lance

You could use an inside out wall for that lr wall. It would give you true mam construction, and a great place for either broadband absorption of a tuned slat resonator. Just a thought. Goodluck with the studio. Oz