$2500 later and my guitar still hums

The 600 sq. ft. space was previously an apartment. My electrician removed all the old stuff (including the breaker box), ran new romex, new (plastic) enclosures. I'm not sure if he incorporated star ground or not, but certain outlets are on their own IGR circuit, separate from lights/HVAC, etc. The HVAC is also brand-spankin' new (1.5t Trane). So....my guitar hums. This happens to be my profession, so I know a good room from a bad one...and this is not good enough.

Chris, I'll post here so all can see, instead of just PM. In addition to what I've asked so far... What type of lighting do you have? Florescent, Halogen, or regular bulbs. Do you have a dimmer anywhere in your electrical system? Do you have more than one guitar you can try? Try different cables (how long is your guitar cable?) Have you tried placing your cabinet in another spot in the room? Have you tried the trick w/ aluminum foil...CAREFUL...you can shock the shit out of yourself. You've already said you have a new ground. Is all 8 ft. of it all the way in the ground?

I don't hear radio signals at all. But I'm not sure that would rule out RFI. The tech power (with isolated ground) is definitely better than the other outlets, in that, when I let go of the guitar the hum does NOT get louder. Something else...an AM radio, plugged into tech power, will pop when I flip the lights on & off. Mind you, the radio is plugged into tech power, which should be totally separate from everything else. What I don't know, is whether that's an indication of ground problems or RFI. It is a radio, after all. _________________ -Chris Graff

Double check all those electrical connections. Sounds like your lights are also on the tech power???

There are halogen (line voltage) in the lounge. No dimmers whatsoever in the building. I haven't tried another guitar or amp, but I hauled the two over to my neighbors tool shed (slightly quieter), and my buddy's studio (much quieter). I should mention that when both pickups are on (middle pos./Telecaster), the hum goes away completely. Yet, an AM radio plugged into the tech power outlet(s) will pop when the lights are switched on/off. Lights are not on the tech power circuit. Nothing on that circuit but the tech power outlets Here are some pics: • Old groundwire (disconnected, I assume) / New groundwire • New groundwire...installed correctly? • lounge/kitchen • Circuit breaker. Waterheater will not be installed (hot water will come from the house) • Tech power outlets. Comments? http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c206/nashguitar1/th_ground.jpg http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c206/nashguitar1/th_groundwire.jpg http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c206/nashguitar1/th_lounge.jpg http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c206/nashguitar1/th_breaker.jpg http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c206/nashguitar1/th_tech-pwr.jpg

Aaronw wrote:

Chris, Try different cables (how long is your guitar cable?) Have you tried placing your cabinet in another spot in the room?

Yes, I've tried both Mogami and Zaolla cables; also tried the amp in several locations within the building.

Aaronw wrote:

Have you tried the trick w/ aluminum foil...CAREFUL...you can shock the shit out of yourself.

Yes, tried that one. No change in hum. This would lead me to believe there is not a ground problem

Aaronw wrote:

You've already said you have a new ground. Is all 8 ft. of it all the way in the ground?

See pic. You tell me :wink:

Aaronw wrote:

Double check all those electrical connections. Sounds like your lights are also on the tech power???

I'll ask the electrician to do that. Lights definitely separate from tech power.[/i]

Chris, Looking at your panel labeling...you've got things like the fridge on the same leg as some of your isolated circuits. Most panels, alternate the load between the two legs coming into the panel (so you can have 220 circuits for like HVAC, etc.). If you're not sure what I mean, give me a few minutes, I'll go take a picture of my subpanel since the cover is off...

Here you go. Here's picture of the buzz bar down the middle of a panel...

All those green home-run grounds! I'm Jealous! I noticed that too about the fridge. I can't even begin to express the frustration. I've come to the conclusion that I hired the text-book example of who NOT to hire. So I paid him, and sent him on his way. Gotta find someone else to fix this mess. On another note... I tried my guitar+pedalboard+amp yesterday. I think I have Nashville's noisiest studio! :shock: Seriously, when I plug the guitar cable into the amp, then wave the other end over the pedalboard - the hum gets louder. RFI or ground problem? Still gotta determine that.

All those green home-run grounds! I'm Jealous!

You Bet! Every single outlet in the studio has it's own ground wire back to the panel. With a #2 AWG wire running to the 5/8" copper ground rod. Since you're local, drop me a PM. Maybe we can figure out the issue. It's also possible you just have bad power or transformer coming into the house. You may have to install some filters or transformers to isolate it completely.

Speaking of power. Do you have a voltage meter? What are you reading for voltage?

I'll get back to you...my v.m. is packed away in the attic somewhere.

Here's the latest... I have power lines/poles running alongside my building - maybe 10 feet away or so. A certain number of those poles (possibly all?) are supposed to be grounded. I tech who was over here today noticed that one of the poles (the only one with a ground wire) had it's ground wire snipped. Whatever's up there on those lines is finding ground at my house!! :shock: I can't imagine that the electric co. wouldn't fix this. Could my guitar hum problems be over??? Stay tuned!

another $800 spent, exactly 0dB improvement. I searched and searched to find "the best guy in town". My business is at a standstill until I get this resolved.

Hello Chris. Another $800. Ouch. Don't feel bad. I've run into a ground loop issue myself over the past few weeks. Trying to avoid having to spend thousands myself to resolve it. I'll let you know what I find in my resolution.

Chris, have you tried a GROUND-LESS outlet yet? (have the electrician make a portable one for you) I use those during PA setup on location. Whenever there's a hummingbird, I'll kill it with such ground-less connection.

There seems to be some debate whether the electric poles running next to the building need to be grounded. There is one apx. 30 meters behind the building with a large can transformer. It has a groundwire that is connected. What is interesting is that my cheap (speaker) gaussmeter, shows that as quiet; as I walk away from the transformer (walking parallel to the line), the hum gets louder. The next pole towards the street sits off the front corner of the building. It is not grounded. Finally the one on the street has a groundwire sticking out of the ground, but is not connected up the pole. The electric company says that A) they are only required to ground four poles per mile, and B) they usually only ground the poles with transformers. This last electrician wants to install an isolation transformer, as a next step. If it corrected the problem, I'd spend the $$$ in a second. However, I'll be extremely angry/disappointed if I spend the money for no benefit.

If it were me I would borrow/rent a generator and power the guitar amp. Disconnect power to the whole structure. That will help determine if it's airborn EMI or a line/power issue. If the guitar is quiet with the generator, power up the structure and see if the noise returns.

stuntbutt wrote:

If it were me I would borrow/rent a generator and power the guitar amp. Disconnect power to the whole structure. That will help determine if it's airborn EMI or a line/power issue. If the guitar is quiet with the generator, power up the structure and see if the noise returns.

That's a fantastic idea!

Maybe even try running an extension cord from your neighbors house?

Or how about a small battery powered amp? That is what I use to troubleshoot.

friend is it 60hz standard dirty power hum? or a higher tone. If you are on a true isolated ground. you wont get hum from other circuits, but you still can have dirty power hum. Many power scrubbers under $100 handle this. It does sound like you should sheild and ground the back of the pickup guard much cheaper than a hardwired transformer

If you want half a chance of one getting this close to right, and understand why and what you want. Ask if they have done wiring in radio stations, studios, industrial controls or hospital ICU and surgery wings. Industrial control and Hospital electricians are more plentiful. The average box and switch just thinks your spending extra money for a pretty system. Industrial controls and hospital monitors cant have interference and work true, like our music gear. Back that photo away far enough to show where the isoaltion is a little better

if they are it's not isolated hard to tell in the photo, but looks like one rod place the second at least a foot away, and they are not kidding about 8ft deep you can get a 12" threaded end section of heavy steel pipe and a cap. Makes a nice, dont hit the building with a sledge hammer tool for driving a rod. It easier to place the rodabout a foot away from the building and wire out to it buried to local code depth.

Thanks for the replies. The problem is multi-faceted. Dirty power somewhat, building very close to the power line; not to mention within a mile of the NBC affiliate (TV/FM etc.). You're right about sheilding the guitar cavity. Only problem is I have many, some of which would be a pain to sheild (vintage Gretsch, for instance). On the advice of the current electrician, I am adding 2 5/8 copper clad rods, 10', spaced 10' feet apart. That will make a total of four rods, across 32 feet. I'll keep you guys posted.

Hello, this is my first post. i felt compelled to do it because i have had the exact same problem. So i spent about $3400 to rewire my panel. even tried running an extension cord from my neighbor. took my guitar and amp to other places to makes sure it was NOT my amp/guitar. Bought several "anti hum" devices that didn't do a damn thing! Talked to people who were convinced they knew the problem, but their "fix" did absolutely nothing to help the problem. Had 3 electricians come out as well. Also had my guitar tech help me ground my guitar properly. all did NOTHING. there was ONE thing that worked... we took the electric meter completely OUT of the meter junction and hard wired a cord to it to determine it WAS my house/home circuitry that was the problem. that gave me hope! my hum was GONE! we just had to determine where the culprit was!! $3400 later. nothing. whole new panel. wires. ground. the works. so after a very depressing week, i was just trying different rooms, places and seeing how if i faced a certain way it would lessen the noise...never go away really. It would still be horrible, but you could hear it lessen for sure. I then decided i was going to search for the WORST spot in the house, the WORST noise. It was near/close to my GAS meter and pipes, and sometimes near the corner of the house. i couldn't figure it out. so i talked to a friend of mine who is in a rather "big" rock band. has taken the stage with PANTERA/SLAYER/CLUTCH/LAMB OF GOD...you get the idea. and i asked him about recording guitars, and interference, he told me about a FARADAY CAGE they had to use in NYC to keep interference out. so i kept trying to understand WHY there was NO HUM when bypassing my house circuit, but even with a new panel ...the hum was there. and why walking towards the GAS meter and pipes would make it so much worse?? then it landed on me! ALL NEW ELECTRIC METERS have a TRANSPONDER in them. ALL NEW GAS METERS do too. (gas is worse because it usually a STEEL pipe, which acts as an antenna) ALL NEW WATER METERS have TRANSPONDERS too, (some have phone lines to send the data back) for the utility companies to read the meters. That was the culprit. the actual METERS. with transponders. I know, that it seems unlikely. And i am no expert. But it sounds EXACTLY like the problem i had. The least you can do is try it. perhaps take your meter out and plug into it with the help of an electrician! like i did? Or try to shield your meters. or shield your guitar from them with a faraday cage. maybe even just put some distance between your pickups and the meter!! (know that a super long cord doesnt make sense due to the cord itself not being shielded) and you can ALSO shield your meter with LEAD/COPPER. you have to REPORT your reading each month though! i ended up buying a new house entirely due to this problem!!! I am married and i couldnt just "over haul" the entire house without upsetting my wife and the family. When buying the NEW house, it was hilarious, i took a cab, a KRANK head, and a Gibson SG. Along with a laptop. an SM7B Mic and a SHADOW HILLS gama preamp ALL to do a MOCK recording of a GUITAR track through a high gain amp! the real estate agent totally had that "what the ____!!!??" look. the NEW house has ONE meter outside. and sure enough, the further i go from it...the less "hum" there is. also the more mass in between the meters the better. please give it a try. I'm telling you this because i really sympathize with you. if you have the resources, try to shield your "antenna" basically your guitar from the RF issue. http://www.twpinc.com/rfi.html and if you got $$ http://www.hollandshielding.com/faraday/index.php do tell how things work out. all the best to you my friend... i guess i'm part of the forum now! By the way i also live near a TV station! .7 miles from WMAR TV 11 Baltimore. Durv Baltimore MD [removed]

Thanks for all the input guys. I found an engineer at the power company, who was very sympathetic to my problem. Today he and a couple co-workers came over with one of the "big" trucks. After checking a few things, they cut the power on the line altogether. At that point we ran the amp off the truck's generator; the hum was reduced by 7 dB. One of the higher harmonics seemed much louder, but that could've been from the not-so-clean power coming from the truck. Upon turning the line back on, the noise was bad as ever. The engineer also noticed that the hum was greatly reduced on the back porch, which is essentially a tin covered roof and sides. We came to the conclusion the faraday option is the next logical step. My new electrician chickenwire would work fine if installed right (grounded).