Valve mic preamp?

I know this is a stupid question, but I don't know much about these things. I plan to buy Behringer ECM8000 mike for measuring. They sell Behringer Tube Ultragain MIC200 preamp over here (they don't have MIC100). I plan to buy it. Now, I am little bit puzzled about the "tube" thing. Would it work well for measuring? Wouldn't tube colorate things? Thanks. -- Mario

In an ideal world, there should be no difference in performance between solid-state and valve preamp designs; as Tim de Paravincini says, "electrons have no memory". You will find that top-end valve designs can sound just as analytical as pro solid-state designs. However, in the case of the Beh preamps, they are engineered to sound overtly coloured, and have only 40v Plate voltage - this is what's known as a "starved plate" design. Some people may like this kind of colouration, but it's definitely not what I would choose for a measurement preamp. For measurement I would choose a "Forensic Grade" preamp. The top units would be something along the lines of a GML or Millennia, but these are costly and probably excessive for measurement. I would expect a clean, budget solid-state design such as a Rane preamp to work very well indeed, and it shouldn't cost that much more than the Beh. In fact, the Rane preamp won a shootout a few years ago against expensive competition. Google Ebay Example Hope this helps! Justin

thermionic wrote:

I would expect a clean, budget solid-state design such as a Rane preamp to work very well indeed, and it shouldn't cost that much more than the Beh. In fact, the Rane preamp won a shootout a few years ago against expensive competition. Hope this helps! Justin

Thanks Justin, very much. This helped tremendously (because I really don't know anything about it). I even found the place to buy it, here in Croatia. Now, it looks like there is another problem with (the output of) it. Will I be able to connect it to computer, somehow? If not, do you know maybe some other preamp which I will be able to connect to computer. Thanks, again. -- Mario

I haven't personally used either of these soundcards, but they're recommended by a company that makes measurement software and aren't too expensive: http://www.libinst.com/ESI_AUDIOTRAK%20CARDS.htm I'm sure the regulars here will have their own favourite suggestions so hold tight. Justin edit: Neither of the above suggestions have mic-amps so you'll need something like the Rane mic-amp - at $30USD on Ebay I'm even thinking of getting one, and I work for a company that makes discrete mic amps :-)

thermionic wrote:

I haven't personally used either of these soundcards, but they're recommended by a company that makes measurement software and aren't too expensive: http://www.libinst.com/ESI_AUDIOTRAK%20CARDS.htm

100-150$ just for a soundcard is too much for me. I plan to buy new PC sound card (because my SB Live! is too old, now), but new one will be regular PC card, costing 40$. I am not into recording, just need something to plug microphone into PC, for measuring acoustics of my room, while I "play" with it. -- Mario

Mario, what are you using for measurement software and does it compensate for cheap sound cards like ETF does? IF so, then all you need is an inexpensive preamp with phantom power - the "too hot" level can be padded down with a voltage divider so it won't overpower your computer sound card. You'd need about 24 dB pad for this IIRC... Steve

knightfly wrote:

Mario, what are you using for measurement software and does it compensate for cheap sound cards like ETF does? IF so, then all you need is an inexpensive preamp with phantom power - the "too hot" level can be padded down with a voltage divider so it won't overpower your computer sound card. You'd need about 24 dB pad for this IIRC... Steve

I just came from 12-hour shift, which began at 4:30am, but I'll try to figure out what we are talking about, :wink: . Right now I am just starting to "play" with this. Here, in Croatia, things are going slowly (not enough money to waste). I plan to buy ETF in about 40 days. Mic and preamp in about 10 days. You are saying that cheap preamp that I'll buy will need to be threated with something called voltage divider. Ok, I got a picture, thanks. I'll try to find more info about it on the Net, and If I'll have something that I don't understand, I know where I'll ask for help, 8) . Thanks. -- Mario

Ok, it looks like I decided what to buy. I'll buy Behringer mic. I presume that via XLR I will connect it to mic preamp. Preamp will be either Rane MS-1 or M-Audio Audio Buddy. Rane has only XLR output, but Audio Buddy has 1/4" balanced/unbalanced output. I will buy M-Audio Transit USB card. This has 1/8" (stereo analog/optical digital) input. I don't know if there are XLR-1/8" adapters, or if I would need to make it myself. I know that there are 1/4"-1/8" adapters. So, since it is an USB card, would there be problems in connecting Rane (XLR-1/8") or Audio Buddy (1/4"-1/8")? Thanks. -- Mario

Actually, I found another product by M-Audio, which should suit me well. I believe that M-Audio Mobilepre USB (www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MobilePreUSB-main.html) has the function of both, mic preamp and USB sound card, so I should rather buy this instead of separate USB sound card and mic preamp). -- Mario

Looks like that has everything you need... Steve

knightfly wrote:

Looks like that has everything you need... Steve

Exactly. Thanks very much for your help. And thanks very much to Justin, who have set me on the right track. -- Mario

A possible alternative a bit cheaper. http://www.tascam.com/Products/US-122.html (I have this one, but haven't used it yet, feels very sturdy/stable). It's tested for compatibility for test purposes with DSSF3 (rather quality program). It also has build-in Mic pre-amp. http://www.ymec.com/products/dssf3e/index.htm http://www.ymec.com/manual/install/equi ... #soundcard But I can't compare them both since I haven't seen the M-Audio. Just got this one, because it was easy accessible, and noted as good and compatible by good measurement software.

Eric_Desart wrote:

A possible alternative a bit cheaper. http://www.tascam.com/Products/US-122.html

Thanks. I surfed a little. It looks like those two are products to choose, if you need something like this. It could be that 122 is now replaced by 122L. This isn't cheaper than Mobilepre. It could be twice as expensive (but I don't know correct price in Croatia, since they didn't put it on the Net). 122 is 24 bit (Mobilepre only 16 bit) and has MIDI. I hardly stretched to the price of Mobilepre, and for 24 bit I could pay 1/3rd more, but two times more would be too expensive. That link from Ymec you provided, about devices for sound meauserement, was excellent for somebody like me. Thanks for all the info. -- Mario

Oops. 122 is still in production (actually, that link that you provided is from Tascam site, 8) ). -- Mario

At Amazone the 122 is ca 146 $ or something. It's a bit more here (Belgium). But the one you referred in in special discount at Amazone < 100$.

Eric_Desart wrote:

At Amazone the 122 is ca 146 $ or something. It's a bit more here (Belgium). But the one you referred in in special discount at Amazone < 100$.

I saw one for 150$ (price droped from 270$). The other one was for 200$. Oh, I don't know. I never bought something via mail (except books and CDs). I don't know what if something goes wrong with the product. I rather like to buy in shop, although Croatian shops are probably even less reliable, :D . With the one that sells M-audio I have good experience, though. I know that it is usual in the West for normal products to have such a big price drops, and that everybody buys on sellouts. Here, in Croatia, when someone sells with low prices, it definitelly means that something is wrong with the product, so I feel uncomfortable buying this way. In fact, in Croatia a lot of products are faulty (countries like Croatia are garbage cans of the western world, because of the lack of human and consumer rights), and the ones with lower price definitelly aren't working at all, :lol: . Every electronic thing that I have in my house has some fault. When you buy something, the trick is to notice where this product is faulty, and if it isn't something serious, buy it. If you didin't notice what is faulty with the product (it looks just fine), avoid it at any coast. Because, who knows what is wrong with it. It could be something really bad. You can return this product, no problems. And you really will receive another product. So, Croats have consumer rights. The only problem is that you will receive replacement in something like 3 years, :lol: . Foreign sellers also know about the state of consumer rights in Croatia, and use it to get rid of their garbage as well, so I don't have faith in them, also. It is just that Croats like to act as garbage cans, so why not send them garbage? -- Mario

Oh, I forgot to mention huge income taxes (plus shipment). Not only that the taxes here are enormnous, but the "way" they are charging them is even more scary. Because they will not care if I bought this product for 150$. In their "cataloges" it is written that it costs, probably not even the initial 270$, but possibly more than 300$. All in all, whoever here tried to buy something that way, never done it again. This country knows the way to force you to buy from local dealers, where you will buy garbage, because it will be cheaper that way. Only problem is that garbage will be garbage. It is enough to say that main man in civil association that takes care of consumer rights in Croatia, during communism was the main trainer od palestinian terrorists, who trained here. How much man like this knows about consumer rights? :lol: -- Mario

:) Mario, How much cost moving ? .......... If you end up behind bars with this kind of posts, we'll visit you ..... :wink:

Eric_Desart wrote:

:) Mario, How much cost moving ? ..........

Oh, I am too lazy for that, :D .

Eric_Desart wrote:

If you end up behind bars with this kind of posts, we'll visit you ..... :wink:

Thankfully this is the thing of the past. Now people like me can talk whatever they want. Politicians (communists) solved this problem by starting the (Balkan) war. And they blamed West for that war. Now everybody here is blaming West for everything, and are happy to live outside West, thinking they are living in pure Heaven. Politicians made people poor, and told them that they are poor because they are, like, living in capitalism. Now everybody wants to live in communism. So, when somebody like me starts to talk about human and consumer rights, common people just laugh at me, saying that they have more rights than people in the West (poor souls). Today I am not threat to the system, 8) . -- Mario

Well, this is what I just heard. I can buy 122 in Croatia, and the price is ok. But, dealer said that it doesn't sell anymore in Europe, because Europe has some new standard which doesn't allow products which are soldered with some harmful metalls to sell in Europe. So, dealer said, that all manufactors had to make new models of their products. -- Mario

Mario Petrinovich wrote:

Well, this is what I just heard. I can buy 122 in Croatia, and the price is ok. But, dealer said that it doesn't sell anymore in Europe, because Europe has some new standard which doesn't allow products which are soldered with some harmful metalls to sell in Europe. So, dealer said, that all manufactors had to make new models of their products. -- Mario

I don't know about that. I have mine rather recently (several months back). Maybe you can check around? Maybe he just wants to sell something else? :twisted: I just looked at mine, it doesn't look dangerous to me ..... :mrgreen: Maybe asking Tascam for a client list and doing a body count can give the answer? ........

Eric_Desart wrote:

Mario Petrinovich wrote:

Well, this is what I just heard. I can buy 122 in Croatia, and the price is ok. But, dealer said that it doesn't sell anymore in Europe, because Europe has some new standard which doesn't allow products which are soldered with some harmful metalls to sell in Europe. So, dealer said, that all manufactors had to make new models of their products. -- Mario

I don't know about that. I have mine rather recently (several months back). Maybe you can check around? Maybe he just wants to sell something else? :twisted: I just looked at mine, it doesn't look dangerous to me ..... :mrgreen: Maybe asking Tascam for a client list and doing a body count can give the answer? ........

Yes, I'll check aroud. They are official Tascam dealers for Croatia. And, it is in tune with something that I've read previously, that 122 isn't avaible anymore (I believe on some UK site), which is why I've posted this in previous post. BTW, be careful with yours. Some day it could cut off yor fingers, 8) . -- Mario

Mario . . . I just happened across this thread. There are a couple of things you should be aware of here. First, ETF is designed to work with cheap consumer sound cards, and as a result it forces you to use the Windows mixer to adjust volume, etc. ETF does not like to work with professional/prosumer audio interfaces. You will be better off just using the soundbastard. I have an RME Digi96/8 PAD and an EMU 1820M installed in my computer, and I have not been able to get ETF to work with either of these. The only way I could get ETF to work was to go back and reenable the cheap sound chip built into my motherboard. ALSO, if money is tight, there is another application that does most of the same stuff that ETF does, but with a much nicer user interface, and it actually has documentation that is possible for regular humans to make sense of (unlike ETF). This application is called Room EQ Wizard, and all you have to do to download it for free is to register for the Home Theater Shack forum. Quick, easy and free to register, and well worth it. http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/ Room EQ Wizard is also designed to work with cheap consumer soundcards. My suggestion would be to get either the Rane or M-Audio preamp and the measurement mic, and then just get the needed adaptors to run from the preamp output to the sound card's line input. You should be able to get these at a good music dealer, or even more likely at an electronics parts store. If you are at all handy with a soldering iron, you could make up your own lead for this, which would probably be even cheaper. There is a good guide to wiring audio interconnect cables here: http://www.warehousesound.com/ranms1.htm BTW, I agree with Thermionic that the Rane pres are very, very good preamps for the money. I've got a rack full of Rane stuff in my studio, including various mic pres, a headphone amp/distributor and a couple of line splitter/mixers, and I'm very happy with all of it. For the mic pres, you would be pretty hard pressed to find a better sounding preamp for anything even remotely close to the price you'd pay for them (even the new prices). As I think has already been mentioned, the only down side of the Rane and the M-Audio pres you are considering is that they don't have an output level adjustment. I know that the Rane preamps do tend to roll off a bit at lower frequencies when you are running them at low gain levels. Another option you might consider is just getting a little Behringer UB802 mixer (which is the smallest of their UB series mixers that has phantom power). These are solid state preamps, wouldn't have the colouring of the cheap starved plate preamps, and they have a pretty flat frequency response and an extended frequency range. I'm not a huge fan of the Behringer products, particularly their preamps (subjectively, they have a bit of a cold, metallic sound to them), and the EQ absolutely sucks, but I would think for basic acoustic testing purposes (such as you would do with ETF or Room EQ Wizard) the pres in the UB mixer would certainly be adequate. And this would also give you some control over the output volume level, so you don't overload the inputs of your sound card. Anyway . . . a few thoughts. Hope that's helpful. :) Give my regards to Zagreb. I have pleasant memories of playing there. Used to play this nice jazz club there some years ago when I was touring a lot. I can't remember the name of the place at the moment, but the owner of the place was a real character -- had a bronze bust of himself at the end of the bar. LOL. :lol: I can't recall his name at the mo either, though it's just on the tip of my tongue -- name started with a "B", I think. Oh yeah . . . just remembered . . . the owner's name was Bosco. I enjoyed playing there, and enjoyed the people who came to hear us play. I always wished I had a little more time to spend there . . . we were always in and out very quickly . . . always just one night there, and off to another country first thing in the morning. Never had much time to explore the city.

Whoa, excellent info. Thanks Scott. "Thankfully" the guy who owe me some money, still didn't show up (he was suppose to come few days ago, :? ) so I still didn't buy anything. Now, I really liked the Tascam US 122 idea. It should be trouble-free solution, if only it works. I wasn't surprised that your soundcard doesn't work, since it looks like it is some dedicated mixing (or whatever) device. But you are right, just the same way Tascam also could fail to work. I liked the Tascam idea, because it is nice, trouble-free interface to computer, so I can use it if some of my friends-musicians decide to put something on a "file". I can come to them and say, hey folks, look what I got, plug into USB, and here you go, :D . Of course, the bad thing about that is that pretty soon I will stay without it, :roll: . If I buy Tascam, and if it doesn't work, I suppose that I could still use it for the purpose, by connecting line out, to line in of a computer card. Rane looks too expensive to me (just for a preamp), although I still didn't find the price of it, for Croatia. OTOH Behringer UB1002 (it looks like they don't sell 802 over here) is priced really nice. It looks even too cheap, compared to M-Audio Audio Buddy, but it should probably be enough for me, just like you've said. So, it looks like the basic question is how important a quality of sound card is for my purpose? I intend to play a lot with those measurements. Ok, when I sum all this up, I presume that the most approprate for me would be to buy UB1002, buy 1/8 to RCA adapter, connect Tape out of UB1002 to line in of a sound card, and here I am. I presume that SB audigy 4 bulk (European, cheaper, version) would be of enough good quality for my purpose. OTOH I really don't know how much (or "if") the sound card of Tascam is better than Audigy. BTW, regarding the club, you are talking about a fellow called Bosko Petrovic. He is the leading jazz musician of Croatia. He is a vibraphonist. Here is the link: http://www.bpclub.hr/bpclub/bosko.html . The club you are talking about is named after him, the BP Club. I don't know if he owns it, or city gave him that club to manage it. Here is the newer link for the club site: http://www.bpclub.hr/. But on the older link, if you go to photos section of the club (here is the link: http://jazz.ring.net/cgi-bin/BP_Club_query) at the very first picture at the opening page you will see the leading saxophone player of Croatia. We were good buddies some 20 years ago, and still maintain some conatct. He even tried to force me to learn to play a bass guitar back then (because I have a good feeling for rhytam), but although I love music very much, I don't think I would be a good musician, :D . -- Mario