Already have home made traps should i buy some pre-made now?

SoulFood wrote:

I'm looking for some acoustic treatment for a home studio, but it has to be very portable, so any kind of acoustic pannels make sense...

Buy or make something light weight that is easy to hang or place to maximize portability. There are significant differences between products as to these attributes. For example the RT424 weighs less than 10 lbs.

With my very limited knowladge in acoustics, as far as I understand, The main difference is that ReadyTraps don't have a membrane. So they absorb higher freqs and could make a room more dead sounding. Am I correct?

No! The whole point of my original post here was to explode the myth purported by Glenn that magical qualities arise in "membraned" panels such as the MiniTrap with the result that HF is not absorbed. As I demonstrated quite clearly - the HF absorption curves of the RT424 [a fabric wrapped 703 panel an analog of which can readily by be made by a DIY user] and the MiniTrap are stunningly similar - in fact in large part, they are precisely the same! Don't be misled by attempts to divert the discussion to uncertainties of low frequency measurement... the original false proposition, and your question are about high frequency - and I assure the % uncertain measurements are miniscule from both labs in these frequency bands [less than 3% on average from 500 to 5,000 Hz for the RAL data - you can see these numbers yourself once I get the final reports posted].

I don't think any of the panels are tuned (or they wouldn't be universally "fitting" to all the rooms)(I could be wrong... please correct me if I am...) I'm not after any business secrets here, but what do you think makes your product outstanding? If you would just say it in words and not use graphs, since one of the three manufacturers clearly disagrees with the other two when it comes to testing.

If you want to modify a panel with a membrane or scrim to fit a need in a particular room - it aint "rocket surgery". Software like Room EQ Wizard or ETF and a measurement microphone will suffice to validate the results you are achieving, and adding a scrim or membrane to a mineral fiber panel is trivial [spray adhesive around the edge of the face and add a sheet of 4 to 6 mil poly for example]. There are no significant secrets to adding scrims and membrane to mineral fiber panels. People have done it for years [often for good reasons - but sometimes for dumb ones]. If you have a particular tuning need, I suggest you explain it in a forum such as this, and perhaps Eric or some other person who has made 100's of such devices and is therefore highly skilled in the art of making srimmed / membraned MF membrane panels for specific uses will offer a suggestion on a material to try for the particular need encountered. That said, I can't imagine why you would want to tune panels meant to be portaged around to different rooms - but your circumstances may allow that idea to makes sense. Finally, I doubt you will have more luck getting a consensus with words than you have had with graphs from competitive producers of products intended for the same uses. I have tried to restrain myself to correcting what I feel are false descriptions of our products and there suitability - I didn't come here to run a commercial - but I freely admit a prejudice. FWIW, I like our products [hell I helped design them], I know what they will do, I know they are light weight, sharp looking, an excellent value in the current market, and easy to mount and demount. That is not to say you have no other valid choices, merely that I earnestly believe our products are amongst the categories worthy of your consideration. I suggest you resolve to develop your own judgments - let your intellect and your wallet be your guide. Good Luck! PS: Perhaps direct communication of your needs to the sundry manufacturers would best suit your desire to obtain information versus "start a flame war"?

I will not even try to contribute to this thread... It's mostly way over my head... But what I thought this thread would be great for is getting opinions of different experts explaining their products under the supervision of moderators and anyone interested in the subject. Its much harder to sell "snake oil cables" if you have alternative opinions... And that's a good thing for consumers... I don't expect to find "the best product out there" or anything like that. I just feel this is a chance for people to learn more about what they're buying or building so they can make an educated decision about their preferences... And thank you for your input Knightfly! It's really useful to remind forum leechers that even reverb is what we're after... The question I have right now is, how much high freq absorbtion does a room typically need... Come to think of it... The questions in my head are becoming a little off-topic... I'll save them for later ;)

SF, > what do you think makes your product outstanding? < I agree with Scott that this is the stuff that starts flame wars. And I know that's not your intent! I will be happy to tell you exactly what distinguishes RealTraps from other manufacturers, but a public forum is not the most appropriate place. In fact, all of that information is already all over our web site. It's on the main page, the FAQ page, our extensive list of high-profile customers, as well as made clear by all the tutorial articles and videos on our site. 8) So if you're seriously considering buying treatment (not just asking hypothetically), you're most welcome to email me from our site and I'll be glad to answer any further questions. > It's really useful to remind forum leechers that even reverb is what we're after < Yes, that too. Very much so. --Ethan

I am 100% with Ethan, if you would like to know more about someones product I would contact them through email. I edited this to not start a flame war. Glenn

"but I freely admit a prejudice. FWIW, I like our products [hell I helped design them], " You did?

SF, > I don't expect to find "the best product out there" or anything like that. I just feel this is a chance for people to learn more about what they're buying or building so they can make an educated decision about their preferences... < Here are a few more thoughts: There are lots of products in all markets - not just acoustic treatment - that cater to a wide range of budgets and needs. Some people want the best no matter how much it costs, and others want the most value because that's all they can afford. Personally, I think it's wonderful that products are available in a wide variety of features and prices. The past ten years or so have been very good for audio folks on a tight budget, and Behringer in particular have been a major force. This is not to say I approve of Behringer's tactics! Copying someone else's ideas and hard work is not cool at all. But from the consumer's perspective, where else can you get a mixer that actually works for only $39? Nobody will argue that the microphone preamps in a Behringer mixer are as good as an Avalon or Manley that costs 30 to 50 times more, even though both offer 60 dB of gain. Are the Avalon and Manley 30 to 50 times "better" than the Behringer? Probably not. But working professionals making Gold and Platinum CDs are willing to pay more than a teenager with a bedroom studio. So it's good for all of us when everyone can afford to get in the game, so to speak. As relates to acoustic treatment, personally I think it's great that companies like GIK and Ready Acoustics offer solid products that everyone can afford. A bass trap "bag" you can stuff yourself for only $30 is quite a value! How three guys can expect to make a living selling those is beyond me. But that's beside the point. Glenn's GIK bass traps at only twice that are an even better value since they're already built for you. Life is good. I have said this many times, and I'll say it again: I'd rather someone buy from a competitor or build their own panels and traps than do without. I've been running RealTraps for four years now, yet I continue to visit dozens of forums daily to advise people who I know for certain will never be paying customers. And I still maintain and update my Acoustics FAQ so people can learn why treating their room makes more sense than buying yet another piece of gear. My FAQ shows people how to build their own traps rather than have to buy them, even though I'm in the business of selling traps. Think about that! This is how strongly I feel about the importance of room treatment. It's an uphill battle to be sure when audiophile "conventional wisdom" tells people that a parametric EQ can replace bass traps. And that $20,000 loudspeakers give good "imaging" without needing ugly panels. And where newbies ask what microphone or preamp or sound card or toob compressor they should buy to get "that" sound, when the problem all along is the room they're mixing in. --Ethan

I though I will not post here again soon, as my idea would most probably start a flame war... I'd just like to explain once more, why I posted here... If I contact the company directly there would be no way of knowing if the interpretation of data offered by the manufacturer would be correct... But if everyone would make an effort to actually avoid sentances that could offend anyone (I know... it really does take alot of energy...) so that a good intelectual debate would take place, everyone would benefit from it! There is still a chance for this (and anything that makes a costumer feel better about their buy is good for a company...) Thank you all! SoulFood

Damn Ethen that was well said. It is that kind of attitude that keeps you in business. Maybe I should not tell you that. :lol: Glenn

SoulFood wrote:

I though I will not post here again soon, as my idea would most probably start a flame war... I'd just like to explain once more, why I posted here... If I contact the company directly there would be no way of knowing if the interpretation of data offered by the manufacturer would be correct... But if everyone would make an effort to actually avoid sentances that could offend anyone (I know... it really does take alot of energy...) so that a good intelectual debate would take place, everyone would benefit from it! There is still a chance for this (and anything that makes a costumer feel better about their buy is good for a company...) Thank you all! SoulFood

I think Ethan just explained it did he not? Glenn

Absolutely!!!!! :D Gotta love forums! :) Thank you all! SoulFood

Thanks guys - I expected to see this page this morning glowing with flames - glad to see it isn't. I'm happy for this forum to be robust discussion, and I encourage it, but I don't like it when it gets personal. Let's face it, when I started on the net back in the late 90s no one cared a damn about acoustics, all the talk was about preamps and mikes, aka "What's the best mike for an acoustic guitar?" ;) We've come a long way from then and due to the posting of people like Steve, Eric, Ethan, and all you guys on this site and other sites we have turned people around and offered another factor for consideration when deciding what it is that makes for a good recording. When I was a young passionate engineer in the 70s my studio partner and I were discussing why our recordings didn't sound as good as the US recordings. We had the same gear, same mikes, speakers etc. I then travelled to the US to investigate what it was. I learnt very quickly that it was acoustics after visiting every major studio in LA at the time. (BTW I'm not negating the great skill of the engineers of the day) When I win Lotto I'll get straight over to the US and we'll all go and spend a couple of months in the labs and we'll measure everything ;) cheers john

SoulFood wrote:

I'd just like to explain once more, why I posted here... If I contact the company directly there would be no way of knowing if the interpretation of data offered by the manufacturer would be correct... SoulFood

Soulfood: For the acoustics: compare measurements. For the weigh of the objects: compare the respective sites. For the price: compare the respective sites. How they look and feel: you can only know after looking and feeling them yourself, or they must be prepared to send you a sample. Hence you have only the sites and the respective descriptions to go on. I've seen, felt and disected 2 of them: MiniTraps and Ready Acoustics. MiniTraps has a quality good designed and stable frame but feels relative heavy, which you can interpret as a quality measure or not. Their looks are described by many reviewers. The Ready Acoustics traps look real nice and that bag for me feels as top quality, is strong, washable and has an attractive leathery shine on it. At SOS the reviewers used them and commented on it (read not only this message but thread, includes pictures): Long Link I had no chance yet to see any of the GIK products. About that resonant peak: I refer to John Sayers himself in this thread. I could analyze this here, but my comments will guaranteed be diverted and diffused, so I keep that for an in-depth analyzis on a web page. You can not expect 3 competitors having an open public discussion. If you analyse this thread, you'll see that some use words as a tool to obtain a goal. Without the necessary background and experience with the parties involved you won't know what is true or not. My personal preference I don't give here because nobody believes in my objectivity, hence I could write whatever I wanted here.

"What's the best mike for an acoustic guitar?"

Damn i was just about to ask that! SM57 right?

SoulFood wrote:

I though I will not post here again soon, as my idea would most probably start a flame war... I'd just like to explain once more, why I posted here... If I contact the company directly there would be no way of knowing if the interpretation of data offered by the manufacturer would be correct... But if everyone would make an effort to actually avoid sentances that could offend anyone (I know... it really does take alot of energy...) so that a good intelectual debate would take place, everyone would benefit from it! There is still a chance for this (and anything that makes a costumer feel better about their buy is good for a company...) Thank you all! SoulFood

Soulfood, thank you for furthering the discussion here. I will only add this response to this sentence in your post above: ..." If I contact the company directly there would be no way of knowing if the interpretation of data offered by the manufacturer would be correct.." (notice how I quoted you entirely first, just to make sure nothing was taken out of context).. My simple response to this sentence is; that one can be very well informed about how any acoustic absorption product has been tested in a lab, if ALL relavant data from such test(s) is included when you read the absorption report for that particular device. Our company intends to publish not one, not two, but all 5 pages that accompany a certification for any of our acosutical products that have been tested in a certified lab. The following is solely my opinion, but I believe that by NOT posting all of this data, the consumer can expect there is something the company feels is either irrelavent, or disparaging about the data for their particular product. I stand firm in my business belief, that not including ALL of this data, does a diservice (at best) to the buying public and that by including it, you (and other manufacturer's) can learn more about the science of acoustics. I welcome any and all disagreements with regard to my statement above, and hope we may continue this discussion in a non-confrontational manner. Thank you to all participants. Joel DuBay www.readyacoustics.com

Eric wrote: "I had no chance yet to see any of the GIK products." I am touring (I think) the first 2 weeks of December in Europe. Not sure if we will make it that far up north but I should just bring a box with me for you. Hell Eric if nothing else lets grab a beer. Glenn

"Thanks guys - I expected to see this page this morning glowing with flames - glad to see it isn't. " No problem, we do not run our company that way at all. We know our product works outstanding (as I am sure the other guys feel the same way about there product) and have no need to bash, bitch or just act like 6th graders. In fact I will sell GIK before it turns into a election campaign. I don’t need the money that bad. Glenn

And me ?? Was I good ?? :? I'm also a good boy .... NO? Please ... NO? No sounds wrong: I'm still learning, don't know this language yet, I'm still used that words mean something .... sorry ..... let's try again ... :wink: No problem John, we are a mature set of guys, we don't like all this bashing, bitching and acting as 6th graders, we just use the work of those 6th graders (I'm 7th), never taking a stand, and multiply unnecessary messages without content = good for Google = good for business. :evil: Damned I have no link ..... Edited: :) solved it ..... (must alter my company's name. Think that's not really a good one)

Eric was the above alright?

Maybe, don't know. I tried to make a point in this thread which affects thousands, no .... ten thousands, but it's diffused again. Hence nobody is interested in what you write. You better search something else to do guy. Or write a book about this stuff. That should be an idea. Title: e.g. "An acoustician's experiences on the net" but something with more impact.

OK

And me ?? Was I good ?? I'm also a good boy .... NO? Please ... NO? No sounds wrong: I'm still learning, don't know this language yet, I'm still used that words mean something .... sorry ..... let's try again ...

Eric - you were good - we all love and respect you and understand your problems with language, I have trouble sometimes understanding you, but I don't disrespect you for it :D:D I also understand and respect your attention to precision, accuracy and detail, your countrymen are famous and admired for it. I hope that answers you last sequence of posts as once again, I'm still a bit confused ;) cheers john

I've been following you folks..... :D since we are on the subject of traps and trapping.. What have you concluded to be the best or should I say most effective materials... for bass hangers? I deal with a lot of music with deep bass...40hz and up in just about every song I have seen pictures of folks using all kindds of stuff wrapped up and hanging for the ceilings and corners...... from 703(or similar) wrapped in different coverings, MDF, plywood, etc etc with different materials attached.....I have even seen rolled vinyl carpet with duck tape being used. Does one have an advantage over the other? maybe I overlooked a "Sticky" section with this info. thanks

Scott, > As I demonstrated quite clearly - the HF absorption curves of the RT424 [a fabric wrapped 703 panel an analog of which can readily by be made by a DIY user] and the MiniTrap are stunningly similar - in fact in large part, they are precisely the same! < I find this statement amazing because in the past you ridiculed the absorption curve of MiniTraps, and Eric called their absorption "sick" many times. For at least three years both of you derided MiniTraps as a lousy way to make a panel. Here are a couple of quotes I dug out from when you and a half dozen of your friends tried to gang up on me at the SOS forum in Xmas 2004:

MiniTrap's poor performance above 125Hz ... why would anyone want that in a device?

So now you agree that MiniTraps defined the standard for how a broadband bass trap should work? I'll take that as a compliment. As they say, Imitation is the highest form of flattery. And just so nobody can accuse me of quoting out of context - a popular strategy lately - here are links to those threads at SOS: "Auralex Roominator Kits??? Any good??" "Right, A potentially contentious Post, in defence of Real traps "mini" traps." > Don't be misled by attempts to divert the discussion to uncertainties of low frequency measurement... the original false proposition, and your question are about high frequency - and I assure the % uncertain measurements are miniscule from both labs in these frequency bands [less than 3% on average from 500 to 5,000 Hz for the RAL data - you can see these numbers yourself once I get the final reports posted]. < For someone who claims to be an acoustics professional you should know that acoustic labs vary a lot even at certified frequencies for standard A mounting. The ASTM C423 document I referred you to earlier explains lab variances and shows the very wide spread for A mount testing. For you to compare products in different labs for non-standard mounting in corners down to 63 Hz, especially when the corner locations are not even known, is either incompetence of fraud. Take your pick. You and Eric both know this, so clearly both of you are willfully trying to distort science to your advantage. Which is ironic because that's exactly what you always accuse me of! In fact, in that Xmas 2004 thread you wrote this:

I detest deceit, particularly when science is involved.

Apparently you don't detest deceit as much as you say. Here's another pair of quotes by you from the same threads, put together to show the contradiction:

As to comparing the IBM data to the RAL data... different things were tested, it aint valid to try and mix those apples with them oranges

I reject the idea that the RAL/Studiotips corner absorber data is misleading.

Even more clear is this figure Bob Golds recently posted in another thread here:

It's obvious that at 100 Hz the variance among labs is quite large and gets even larger as the frequency goes down. Extrapolating down to 63 Hz it seems the numbers will vary by 5 to 1 or even more for the very same material measured in different labs. And the data above is for standard A mounting in the "certified" range of 100 Hz to 5 KHz. As soon as you put the traps in randomly chosen corners the variance is even larger. Scott, you either know this and are bending the truth on purpose anyway, or you don't know this because you haven't yet learned enough about lab testing. Which is it? I know for a fact that your "18 versus 12" comparison is totally bogus because I have measured MiniTraps at IBM's lab side by side with plain 703. At 100 Hz and below, measured in a corner, MiniTraps absorb twice as much as the same thickness of plain 703. So your comparison is obviously flawed. --Ethan

Can you please link to the correct messages. Those sentences are hidden in threads between > 300 posts. (including posts which are novels in itself). You don't give a reference to the national library, but to a book an author and a page. In a forum you link to individual messages quoting from an author. And you leave sentences within the context they are used, as such that a quoted text can not mean anything else than originally intended by its author. As a writer you should know that. And Copyright law applies as well on messages in public forums.

John Sayers: I've been fond of the words 'broadband' (thick/thin) and 'bass trap' (low/med/high) defined like this for quite a while: