Design thoughts?

Salutations one and all. Portions of this post were included in my last posting on the Studio Construction Forum. The nature of my questions changed and I believe it really belongs here on Studio Design Forum. I saved the sketchup by exporting so hopefully they are correctly attached this time AND I've attached a few jpegs of some other CAD software that I have in the hopes that they make things a little more clear than my lame attempts at Sketchup beta. I found a building in a location that's zoned for mixed use and its very inexpensive. Its a three story structure. I plan to create a residence on the third floor. I'm considering cutting out portions of the 2nd floor decking to add height to the main tracking room and use the remaining 2nd floor space for storage, workshops etc. I'm considering constructing some base traps on the second floor adjacent to the area that I open up with the hope that this allows me to maintain a larger footprint in the main tracking area. The building shell is brick/block (block not filled) coated with brown coat and white coat (plaster). The structure is essentially a steel ibeam grid. In my drawings you will see the columns in the center of the structure. There are also ibeam columns imbedded in the exterior walls on right angles to them. At the exterior wall those columns only protrude about 6" into the floor space. The ground floor is 6" thick slab on grade. The 2nd floor is comprised of 2x12 notched out to rest on the ibeams, they are in turn covered with slat boards and finished with hardwood. I have checked with a structural engineer who sees no problem with removing the 2nd floor decking and structure down to the ibeams inside the grids that are above the main tracking area. Of course I will have to leave the Ibeams in place. (something to hang cool looking clouds, ductwork, maybe a cool mobile or two....) I had downloaded sketchup beta and struggled through a few attempts that I'll post below. The software was misbehaving a bit and I was new to it. Consider that my feeble attempt at an excuse. I will also post some 2d DWG files that hopefully are a bit more accurate. I will likely use this space for personal use initially but hope to become sufficiently proficient at my recording skills to be of service to others as well. I believe that I will have $100k budget and can afford to take a year to accomplish the buildout, most of which I plan on doing myself. A part of this design process for me is to come up with a realistic budget and business plan. Meaning, I would like to have a design for a finished studio complex but might have to begin with just the control room and one ISO booth finished. My preference would be complete the majority of structural changes, wireing and framing to save on the mess, permits blah,blah,blah. The biggest challenge so far in my design is those darn columns. I'm primarily focusing on my control room just now. I'm trying to keep a 1, 1.14, 1.39 ratio with coresponding volume. Every way I've turned things thus far makes for a real crowded space (or speakers sitting inside of the space where there's a metal Ibeam, GRRRR) I could sure use some help on that one. My next attempt will be to use the top right corner where the 2nd floor decking is removed. (top right see jpg attachment) Next, What about those base traps on the 2nd floor? OK idea? Waste of time? Whatdaya think? Hmmm 1st floor ceiling height where the 2nd floor decking remains is 13'. Where the decking is removed should result in a ceiling height of 25' At this time I fully intend to have floating floors, haven't finished my research yet in that regard. Even so I will likely go with cementitious rather than framed. I think I covered all the "BOLD" items. My apologies in advance if not. I'm really looking forward to everyone's comments.

Sorry attachments were too large. Will try again

Here's another

Now for those Sketchups

Here I'm Showing where I intend to cut out the 2nd floor.

And Here you can see why I changed from Sketchup to CAD :oops:

Oops not that one, this one

Hello again, Here's one solution I came up with for the layout and positioning of the control room working around the existing columns. In order to get some balance in the space the control room winds up being pretty large. One thing I like about it is that it lays adjacent to one of the only existing rooms in this structure. Guessing I could use the adjoining space as the machine room. I tend to like the fact that this control room option is quite large and there is considerable space for racks and midi gear to either side of the mix station. I'm attaching two options for the mass-air-mass wall layout surrounding the control room for your input. I suspect that opt 2B is more preferrable but would prefer to hear any insights that may be obtained from you guys. I will continue working on the drawing in order to show elevations on the interior of the control room. My thinking thus far is to splay the interior and exterior walls in an effort to direct sound into the ceiling space which again should be very close to 25' high rough-in (before absorbtion and decoupling from slab) on the control room side of the columns. Here are some additional questions: How would I go about entering an odd shaped room like this into the room mode calculator found on this site? I believe that I'm on the right track by not having any right angles or parallel surfaces but have I gone overboard here? Assuming this layout hasn't broken any major acoustic design practices are there any suggestions on modeling this room for performance before it's built? If I were to vertically splay the walls vertically, is 3 degrees sufficient? AND What concerns would need to be addressed by varying the air space in the "mass-air-mass" as the interior and exterior walls came together? Is there a minimum recommended distance of air between the walls? How about on the back wall where the exterior wall is masonry and the interior wall will likely be steel framing? Thank you to the forum for any comments or suggestions. Bryant

Hey guys, while I was waiting for input I started on elevations for the control room. The attachment below is the view from behind the mix station. The panels with the goofy arrows are where I'd like to have glass. Looking above I've drawn in where the Ibeams will run across the ceiling space. Since the Ibeams tie into the superstructure I suspect they could be a challenge to isolation. Question 1: How would you incorporate mass-air-mass to these bad boyz? Or would you recommend a different isolation method? Question 2: Assuming someone answers my earlier post question regarding modeling this odd shaped space....... I'm thinking of dropping bass trap type panels at varying distances separated by varying spaces to address any troublesome freq. in addition to the bass trap center rear of the space. Could someone provide a reference for the formula necessary to obtain correct spacing? Again, thanks for any comments or suggestions. Bryant

Well, I tried Sketchup beta one more time.. :evil: :evil: So I went back to my CAD software. I thought I'd attach a blowup of the proposed control room with some dimensions since the jpegs previously posted aren't all that clear. The room height will be around 25'. Thanks Bryant

It's a huge space - maybe look at something like this - the control is 28' long so it's a good size, you could have two booths with 13' ceiling and the main studio could go all the way up to the 25' plus still retain access to the front of the building. cheers john

John, Thank you very very very much. Not only is this space big.....its cheap! Whoohoooooohooooo I noticed how you imported the jpeg into sketchup, nice trick!......Well, I guess that's why you make the big bucks. I probably have to break down now and buy the real Sketchup software. I guess I was being overly concerned about the columns. One thing I like alot is the varying depths of the two Iso booths. My guess it that this set up provides a multitude of options for mic placement!!! (Damn, there's no Emoticon for "giddy like a school girl") The square space in the existing building behind where you have the control booth contains the stairwell, bathrooms and freight elevator. I wrote a note with an arrow on the CAD but I notice its not legible when I shrank down to 700 pixels in order to post. Question #1 If I wanted to maintain a 3.5' or 4' passage-way between the control room and that structure, would you have a preference as to how that space came out of the two Iso booths? Split the diff? Did you use a formula to consider the Iso booth sizes? Ie. would I need to move the long joining wall (center) also to add volumn back to the Iso rooms? Question #2 Room calculators using widest, longest and highest dimensions of the large tracking room show some nasty modes below 200Hz. Of course the room is not a box so I'm pretty sure those calculators aren't showing a particularly accurate representation of the space. What are your thoughts about planning a large base trap located on the second floor decking adjoinging the large tracking room? I'm thinking about this because it would be easier to get to than ceiling absorbers 25' or so up. Thank you again for your input, Sincerely, Bryant

Bryant - the sketchup/google free program is the same as my version except mine has more export options and export to video. Apart from that they are the same. no need to buy it ;) That's cool you can move the whole control room forward to allow for the passage behind. I didn't really think about the booth sizes - I was more concerned with geting a good sized control room in the space around the columns. ;) I like the high ceiling studio and the end booth could also have a high ceiling and be a drum booth. cheers john

Hey John, I need to delete my sketchup download and try downloading it again. Many of the menu items on the version I have are nonfunctional. (ie zoom, no protractor) Back to the drawing board. In the meantime..... I have a better than good chance of obtaining a grant to help with the project costs on my studio buildout. I have to submit a pretty specific business plan as a part of the deal. I won't be able to come back and ask for additional dollars after the grant is awarded. Therefore, one of my current goals in design is to come up with a layout that reduces the need for extravagant corrective measures because of the shape of the tracking spaces and control room. (This of course assumes good construction practices and proper materials.) I would like to include in the budget, treatment that allows me to change the reverb time in the various tracking spaces. My concern is that I'll build spaces that require so much sonic correction that my budget gets blown. So I guess its as much a matter of accurate job costing as it is accurate tracking and listening space. I hope I stated that right. My forum searches only turn up calculators and such that illustrate constant height, width and length. My assumption is that there is a methodology or resource for modeling irregular shaped spaces that acoustic engineers/designers use while projects are still in the design phase. Question If that assumption is correct, could you recommend such a resource, software, person etc? I'll post the first floor again after I make the shift AND after I reinstall sketchup. Thanks again, Bryant

My assumption is that there is a methodology or resource for modeling irregular shaped spaces that acoustic engineers/designers use while projects are still in the design phase.

I don't know of one - I use experience and intutition. cheers john

Hey John, and anyone else on the forum, Since you (John) use experience and intuition; What do your experience and intuition tell you about these ideas-- Idea #1 Construct the large tracking room in such a manner as to direct reflective waves into a wide band trap located in the ceiling by: 1. Splay interior walls 3 degrees on the vertical plane. 2. Build two false ceilings, the top to function as mass-air-mass with the third floor of the building being the top mass, and the second false ceiling using scisor joist laid on top of the exposed Ibeams with various size (width and length) absorber panels hanging between the two ceilings. My thinking is that the structure will be in place for the placement of absorbers after the space is built and sonic measurements are taken to determine any troublesome bandwidths. I'll include a budget number for absorbers to fill 1/3 of the space between those ceilings. Question #1 Is this just downright overkill on such a large space? If not could you recommend where my initial design attempts should focus? Idea #2 I'd like to be able to use this large space for both tracking and performance. The challenge I forsee is designing a space that the acoustics can be varied to suit both of those functions. To that end I've considered placing an "Absorber Room" on the second floor (see earlier posts) that would have a sliding door at the interface of the absorber room and the large tracking space. This would allow the absorber room to be open during tracking and closed during performance. Question #2 Since the buildup of lows tends to occur primarily at inside corners is this a snipe hunt? (Hey, do they have snipe in the rain forest?) My present thinking is that if those waves are sucked up, then they're not building up. Am I way off here? What do I need to focus my early design attempts on, in this regard? Your thoughts? (I think I've got a penny around here somewhere......) :) Thanks for any insights Bryant

Bryant - what do you intend to record in this studio? The large studio looks more like an orchestral studio in which case the walls would be treated to apply to an orchestral layout - they can be made variable acoustically using specially designed wall treatments. Angling the walls 3 degrees in the vertical creates a nightmare structurally and the expense would far outweigh any acoustic advantage. At the moment we are just playing with the layout, and as I said, I haven't given much thought to the booths or the studio acoustic - just trying to figure the best way to keep the line of sight between the studios and to utilise the two floors whilst still keeping the access passages between the front and rear of the building. It's a pretty big ask to nail down a construction of this scale on a web forum ;) cheers john