New and need Help!

New here so please excuse some of the stupid questions. I will be building my hubby his own practice room for his electric guitars as a anniversary present. His main interest is blues, ie: Budddy Guy, SRV, Satch, Hendrix, etc. I'm converting a small bedroom, its a whopping 9x13 with 8' ceilings, one draw back is it does have a 3'x3' hallway closet protruding into it. I've read several different ways of soundproofing and "acoustisizing" a room. Which is the better? The layers of drywall with air pockets or the staggered studs with wall insulation woven through? I'm leaning more towards the room within a room, staggered stud idea. What type of insulation would be used? I am located in KS. I've noticed several people using an angled wall pattern, is this necessary? This room will primarily be used as a practice room for just him, no recording. Also, and here is where I show my musical knowledge, how important are the bass amps people are putting in the corners of their rooms? Is there a cheap way to create these? Would angling the ceiling edges help too? Sorry for all the questions but would like to get this as close to right as possible. I don't want to create a dead sounding room. I just want others driving down the street to be able to hear him play as clearly as they can now, even though he's a great guitarist. Thanks for the help! Guitard in Kansas :shock:

Guitard, welcome to the forum; wow, what a great anniversary gift! I've got about a dozen preliminary questions, most of which are listed here http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3231 But I'll try to answer the ones I can - meantime, if you can review all the bold points in that post it'll help us help you, as well as show you what you need to learn more about. Also, will you be building this yourself or with the help of others, or contracting it out? This can bring a lot of other problems to light, namely the general ignorance of virtually ALL builders about sound isolation :cry: By "bass amps in corners" I'm assuming you meant bass TRAPS - if so, these actually smooth out ALL the frequency ranges in a room and will make a very noticeable difference in the sound within the room. (sound isolation is a totally separate set of problems from having the room "sound good") Staggered stud construction is better done during the building of the house, because it requires wider base plates and caps in the framing (usually 2x6 plates/caps with 2x4 studs) - and insulation in such a wall works better if individual 2 foot wide batts are used for each side of the wall, compressing them a bit where they pass in front of the stud for the opposite side of the wall. See the bottom illustration in attached sketch for more. You didn't mention what kind of wall construction is already there - if it's normal 2x4 stud wall with drywall attached on both sides, you have a few options depending on how much isolation you need, and at which frequencies (guitar isn't as hard to stop as bass, but close in some cases) Some options, from worst to best - Easiest (and least effective, but still better than nothing) is to just add 2 more layers of drywall to the existing walls - if this is done on only the side toward the practice room, it will improve isolation by about 6 dB at all frequencies - a noticeable improvement, but not "sound proof" by quite a bit. If you add a second frame inside the existing, but don't REMOVE the drywall on the old studs, you'll create a triple leaf wall which will DRASTICALLY worsen the isolation at all but mid/high frequencies - this isn't good, because the bass is always hardest to stop so that should be the focus of a room for music. All the other options WILL require that you remove the wallboard from one side of existing frame, or you will waste your time and money. Period. Remove wallboard (inside only), add resilient channels to existing frame, put two layers of wallboard on the channels. Better, but only at mids/highs - bass isolation no better than just adding one more layer to existing walls. Only thing that helps bass isolation is wider air gap between wallboard, and more wallboard. Staggered stud approach is very close to the above, but harder in some ways - you'd need to remove wallboard, rip 2" wide strips for bottom and top plate extension, then add studs between each existing stud but on opposite side of the wall, so they're "staggered". Lotta work for not much gain. Remove wallboard, add a second frame inside and NOT touching the original frame, put 2 or 3 layers of drywall on inside of new frame - getting REALLY good now - wider air gap from wallboard to wallboard + added mass of 3 layers 5/8 drywall gets you close to a point where you won't hear hubby even from INSIDE the house, provided you use these same methods for floor AND ceiling. (sound proofing is a "weakest link" thing - meaning it's only as good as the worst wall is. Window - a VERY weak link. Can be fixed, but isn't cheap if you still want to see out. Outa time for now, please follow the link at the top of this post and cover as many points in it as possible so we know more about your existing construction, etc - BTW, you can use the Paint program in WIndows and actually make a close to scale drawing - for a room your size, use 5 pixels per inch (there's a pixel indicator at lower right in paint program that shows you how long your line is) - so 5 pixels/inch = 60 pixels per foot = 780 pixels for 13 feet. Doing this will show us where your door, window, closet, are and we can use that sketch to suggest changes. Also, holding the SHIFT key while drawing a line forces the line to be either 0 or 45 degrees - easier to draw straight walls that way :=) Gotta go, hope this helps... Steve

I assume NOT to wove the iso is be'coz than it won't (slightly) be pressed against the wallboard to reduce resonance in the boards ?

No, it would exert about the same pressure; but weaving is not only harder to do, it doesn't put a complete fill in the wall so won't be as good for TL (if you don't already have it, do a search for IR761 and download it (the Canadians' 350-wall "uber-test"... Steve

I'll be doing the room myself with some of the wall raising help being payed off with BBQ and beer. I have lots of basic construction skills. I just don't want to screw up the sound value of the room for him. Bass traps - I've seen several designs for these in this forum, but which tend to be better? Would you have a link? The wall construction as is now: 40 year old 4.5" total width, sheetrock over studs. I'm swaying toward this idea you sent: Remove wallboard, add a second frame inside and NOT touching the original frame, put 2 or 3 layers of drywall on inside of new frame - getting REALLY good now - wider air gap from wallboard to wallboard + added mass of 3 layers 5/8 drywall gets you close to a point where you won't hear hubby even from INSIDE the house, provided you use these same methods for floor AND ceiling. (sound proofing is a "weakest link" thing - meaning it's only as good as the worst wall is. Do you have to remove the wallboard from the original wall? How much would it affect it if it were left? To keep the sound quality up... What are your opinions on the following: Keeping floorplan of room square or angling the walls slightly. Where the ceiling meets the walls, making a 45 degree angle between the two. Thanks for the diagram of the staggered stud design. I've seen so many that weave the insulation horizontally through the studs. All your help is so greatly appreciated I really don't want to screw this up! Thanks again - Guitard

Sorry thought this was attached... guess not. Now it is.

Here are examples of what I was asking about. Wall angles and ceiling corners.

Aloha and welcome to the forum, Guitard :D Here's a few links & diagrams that might be helpful. Here's a couple of good places to start for ideas: SAE Website: http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html (be sure to click on the acoustics, absorbers, construction tabs at left, and tabs that appear at the top of the pages) Wall Units - http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm Recording Studio Design Forum Reference Area: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2125 More Useful Links: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1168 Hope these help, Aloha 8)

Can you use MDF for the slats on these or should you really use pine. Also, what type of "black cloth" is use on them. By your picture the insulation must be of a more rigid styrofoam type material, what is used here? Would you place a corner unit in all corners or just two on one wall with the wall units on the three other walls Placement help would be greatly appreciated! I've decided to move the door and make a real 9' x 11' rectangle out of the room. Maybe this will improve the sound. Thanks again for helping me out! :D

Aloha,

Can you use MDF for the slats on these or should you really use pine.

Yes, you can, however, it's not the best looking material. If you like working with sheet goods, a furniture quality birch plywood is better looking. I used hemlock boards on mine (see attached #1)

Also, what type of "black cloth" is use on them.

Guilford of Maine is what many use. (400 Black) http://www.silentsource.com/acousticore ... hart3.html

By your picture the insulation must be of a more rigid styrofoam type material, what is used here?

Here's the direction I was given:

What you need to ask for is either rigid fiberglass, such as Owens Corning 703 (un-faced) or Roxul AFB rockwool, mineral wool, somewhere between 2 to 4 pounds per cubic foot density; Johns Manville and Knauf also make similar products.

Would you place a corner unit in all corners or just two on one wall with the wall units on the three other walls

I would place them in all four corners if possible.

Placement help would be greatly appreciated!

Here's a drawing from the John Sayers' website http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm showing suggested placements for acoustic treatments for a control room environment. Also, one or more "cloud" units are often used over the mix position. (see attached #2) Again, be sure to check out these websites, as there is a wealth of information to be had. SAE Website: http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html (be sure to click on the acoustics, absorbers, construction tabs at left, and tabs that appear at the top of the pages) Wall Units - http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm Recording Studio Design Forum Reference Area: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2125 More Useful Links: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1168 If you care to check out a couple of recent threads using these absorbers, try here: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... ght=#15598 and here: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4091 Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

Aloha again, Say, any chance you could resize your pics down to about 600 pixels wide, please? This would eliminate having to scroll back and forth so much in order to read your post. (It's also one of the forum's guidelines.) Thanks :wink: Aloha 8)

Sorry about the sizing. Paint Shop Pro said they were 725 pixels. Don't know why it only worked on the first floorplan. Thanks for all your help and the pictures say so much. By the earlier music room picture, the door is not in place yet, do you think I'd get better sound if I squared off the room? :? I've still got one month before my husband leaves for two, so plenty of plan time. Thanks again. :D

Aloha, Try these. If you could save these to your files and then swap them out with your original attachments, it should work.

By the earlier music room picture, the door is not in place yet, do you think I'd get better sound if I squared off the room? Confused

What is the area in the red circle - closet, window, doorway? Is this the closet you mentioned earlier? Aloha 8)

This is the furnace closet. Has to stay, but the door on the left can move either direction on that wall (with the exception of going outdoors :lol: ).

Guitard wrote:

Sorry about the sizing. Paint Shop Pro said they were 725 pixels. Don't know why it only worked on the first floorplan.

You might wanna check the DPI (Dots per Inch) settings, they should be 72dpi (for webgfx). And just use 600x600 max hope that solves it.

I checked the size, pixels etc and all are ok. Wouldn't surprise me if its a gremlin in my puter as I have had plenty in the past. Here is the updated layouts. Unfortunately we will be installing a new furnace/ac which the closet will have to be expanded a tad for. On the bass corners, the diagrams say height is determined on room height, is this to mean they are floor to ceiling? Should I leave the room square or should I angle the walls slightly? Sorry for all the questions. Thanks for putting up with me.

Yeah, but you need to go and edit your previous posts and update the images within those posts. The "wide image" disease hasn't been eradicated from page one of your thread yet. :)

This is the angled room idea resized down to 625pix and 72res. Once again the door on the right has not been installed yet, so its placement can be anywhere on that wall.

oops here it is

The box one the bottom is the furnace room. The door on the LEFT can be moved.

With that small a room, and considering you're gonna need to enlarge the mechanical closet for the new heating system, I'd replace the folding wall with a real double stud wall, NOT try to do angled walls (they eat up too much space), and instead just improve isolation in all walls and ceiling (we need to know how your ceiling is framed - which way the joists run, what size, whether they're part of a truss system, so we can figure out how much extra mass the ceiling can support. Then, for acoustics, corner wideband absorption (probably including the corners between walls and ceilings, since floor space is limited) and some patches of either thick studio foam or cloth-covered mineral wool randomly placed on the walls to kill flutter echo (a parallel wall problem) - if there's carpet on the floor, it may be difficult to balance out the absorption in the room - normally we recommend hard floors and a "cloud" on at least part of the ceiling - this controls flutter as well as lessening any comb filtering effects if hubby does decide to record in there. Flutter can best be explained by having you walk into the room in your house with the least amount of "soft stuff" on walls, and sharply clapping your hands - that "boing" sound is the worst part of flutter, but there are components of flutter that aren't obvious with that test but WILL show up as wierd frequency response problems. "comb filtering" is an uneven frequency response caused by a mic or your ears receiving the same sound at slightly different times, causing a varying phase of the sound - it can be a cool effect, but not if you aren't TRYING to sound that way. As to what to do with your walls, I need to know what your floor and ceiling is constructed of before answering - there's no point in building 63 dB walls if you can't match it with everything else; this also includes the door, by the way - if it's a typical bedroom door, it's probably a lightweight hollow core door with gaps under it you could throw your hat through - if so, it'll have to be replaced as well, and a proper seal kit added (around $300 just for the seal kit, and another $100-150 or so for an exterior SOLID slab door. So, when hubby's not looking you need to crawl around your attic and under the floor a bit to see how those are constructed - not sure what kind of nasty spiders, etc, thrive in Kansas but maybe it'd be a good idea to toss one of those "foggers" people use in such places, then wait a couple of days before going there... Steve

I ain't skeert of no creepy crawlers. 8) Our floor studs and ceiling joists run the length of the room. The furnace coset is only expanding 8" toward the wall with the door, not into the room. So the room will be staying pretty much 8.5 X 10.5 :lol:

Cool; I'll call you next time somebody needs to crawl around under MY place :wink: Still need to know - sizes of ceiling and floor joists spacing between ceiling joists and between floor joists (these may not be the same) whether your ceiling joists are part of trusses, or just separate boards laid across the walls, or?? Are you planning to expand the mechanical closet at the same time? I know, I give everybody else grief over formatting questions, then turn around and ask 12 questions in the same sentence; I'll try to do better, sorry :cry: ... Steve

Just wanted to say: Go Girl Go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (wish my wife would......) And Love your avatar/ screen name. Marc :D