DIY Massenberg Studio?

Hello All; I have been looking at various options for building a control room. Do you all think that this http://www.digidesign.com/digizine/dz_m ... &navid=907 would be viable on a realistic level other than cost to build? This room is 36 X 25 X 27. My room will be more like 25 X 16 X 10. The basic premise is to remove the boundary effect with 2d diffusion with trapping in the corners. What do you think? Jujuman

the MDF alone in that room weighs 40 tons. viable, certainly. practical however....?

Josh I did READ the article......

> What do you think? < I think it's a really cool experiment that has little practical value for guys like you and me. :) --Ethan

My sentiments exactly! Man, what I wouldn't give to do some listening and measuring in that room, though. :shock:

Thanks All; I was just throwing out a thought. I feel that unless you can charge at least $300 / Hour for the room....... it won't be worth it and MOST of us don't charge that kind of money. I emailed George and his reply was that you "could" build a similar room BUT it is NOT for the faint of heart. The ceiling is a HUGE skyline type diffusor that is 8 feet DEEP!!! :shock: You can see the 12" X 13" (buildings) that have regular skylines on the ends in the pic. Jujuman

Guys, besides all the best about Mr. Massenburg, I will go crazy after 15 min in that kind of room :shock: Looks like some scenes from science fiction or horror film :!: But, if you are working on that kind of music... Why not :idea:

I don't know Moby, I think that may be the coolest looking room I've ever seen!

I like those lamps, in the corner... :D

I noticed and admired those too!

I hope that those diffusers wont start to move one day :shock: I'm jokin', of course :wink:

I'd be most worried about the ceiling giving way.... Also, not some place I'd wanna be in a tornado.. :o

Just in case you want to know how it was done from Mr. M himself :shock: :shock: :shock: Yes I did email him and these are his responces. Michael, it's not that simple. the sequence is a rather large Primitive Root Sequence (with convenient co-primes for the x and y) folded into 2D by the Chinese Remainder Theorem. there are RPG Modex panels with James Angus' curved Binary Array Diffusors in front of them. the ceiling is a very large 8' deep 12x13 diffusor with Skylines on the front of about 1/2 of them. this is not for the weak of heart. George On May 8, 2006, at 9:26 PM, MICHAEL FAGAINS wrote: > Hello George; > Thanks for the quick reply. I am in NYC. Unfortunately my schedule will not allow me to travel any time soon. > > What would you suggest as a minimum size for this type of room? The studio will be built from scratch. > > Being that your quadratic root is so large and the diffusor is not 137,000-ish pegs wide, are the pegs laid out like A or B? > > A) 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 12 11 10 > > B) 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 > Is there a particular percentage of a wall this treatment should cover? > > Are there any other treatments in the room that are not evident from the pictures? > > > Thanks for your time. > > Michael Fagains > > > George Massenburg wrote: >> dear Michael, >> >> i think it's the best (relatively) small room i've ever worked in...by far. >> >> you're not going to be able to get the same thing with a 10' height. no way. >> >> you should come her it. where are you? >> >> George >> >> > >

Interesting thread. Also gives a reminder to the newbies that volume and space are necessary. Case in point:

the ceiling is a very large 8' deep 12x13 diffusor

In other words have a second floor empty above with no ceiling inbetween. :D Andre

Andre, > In other words have a second floor empty above with no ceiling inbetween. :D < At least. I have to wonder what the benefit of a room like that is. Does it help to mix better? If so, why? Or does it simply sound "better" than a normal room that's been treated properly? If so, how is it better? --Ethan

Hi people! Excuse me, because I don't know much about those things, but I recently became interested, and am intrigued by this design. The roof here is so high (and heavy) probably because they can afford it. But side walls use the same principle, and they are only 40 inches long (if I understood correctly). I already thought about something similar. Now, what do you, people, think about suspending something on a string (I mean, a lot of things suspended on a lot of strings), from a ceiling to achieve similar effect? This should be cheaper. -- Mario

Mario Petrinovich wrote:

The roof here is so high (and heavy) probably because they can afford it.

Mario, :mrgreen: I think that's not only valid for the roof but the whole room ... being able to afford it. That roof is so high because that's a giant scaled skyliner diffuser extending to the low frequencies (long wavelengths), with small skyliners on top of those, whatever you call them. http://www.rpginc.com/products/skyline/index.htm That roof skyliner is a hollow construction, while those things at the wall are sawn from massive MDF boards. (This aren't individual slats). Calls for some calculation ( :) and first knowing what to calculate) to know which one is heavier. And who will ever get the exact sequence? Hence it's interesting ......... to look at, and to hear. Asking for it will probably always result in a comparable answer that Jujuman gots:

it's not that simple. the sequence is a rather large Primitive Root Sequence (with convenient co-primes for the x and y) folded into 2D by the Chinese Remainder Theorem.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PrimitiveRoot.html http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ChineseRem ... eorem.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_remainder_theorem What are convinient co-primes? How do you make from the above quote what you see on the picture against those walls? Seems as a more important question than knowing which type of glue or screws they used to stick those MDF boards together. :) And now ???? I think the problem how to hang whatever is only a minor secundary problem don't you think?

Eric_Desart wrote:

I think the problem how to hang whatever is only a minor secundary problem don't you think?

Thanks, Eric. I thought, maybe if you don't apply so much of those things, and eventually go with something lighter, hang it down from a ceiling, taking care in construction to use that principle (whatever principle they are applying) as much as possible. Maybe you will not achieve so good result as them, but nobody expect that good result anyway. I mean, without that big skyliner ("which I cannot afford" - words from one song of The Animals, :D ). -- Mario

Eric_Desart wrote:

How do you make from the above quote what you see on the picture against those walls?

Oh, sorry. Is this question for me to answer? Well, I have problem to figure out what the question is, not to say what the answer could be, :oops: . But anyway, I see this as simple messing up with room dimensions. I mean, if you put a hard surface between two walls, you've changed the room dimension at that specific point. That way with only one hard thing you've changed dimensions on the part of all six walls. You put more those things, and you did some acoustical threatment. I mean, if you put a normal diffusor on one wall, this will do something to that one wall. I believe that diffusor that is hanging in the middle of a room can disturb a lot of sound trajectories. Everybody is looking at walls, but maybe by hanging a diffusing device you also can achieve something. We saw from that room above that you can achieve a lot of things with a similar approach. -- Mario

Oh yes, regarding how I see that root sequence (or whatever, :wink: ) applied with hanging diffusers, I mean, with normal diffuser you must take care of dimensions of diffuser. You cannot have something protruding 1 metere from a wall. Hence we have shallow diffusers. But this room doesn't have shallow diffuser. And it is very important for a diffuser NOT to be shallow. If you hang something from a wall, you don't have to worry about how shellow diffuser will be. You simply apply different lenght of string onto which diffusing "thing" hangs. Maybe you can achieve more like this, simply because the diffusing surfaces don't have to be in similar plane, but one part of "diffuser" can be glued to the wall, while another part can hang on 1 meter long string. -- Mario

Hey! Jujuman, have you seen this...? http://ingenieriadesonido.com/productos ... &idprod=65 I´ve already used them (the OBethas), and they're much more cheaper than RPG's Skylines, and they really sound great!! I recommend them very much. Some photos of this work are attached here... In this pictures you can see the diffusers hanging from ceiling (though you can use them for lateral walls, front and back, too) that's 3 meters high. I mean with all this that you can build a very good sounding room without spending that much money, and making it look more or less as would like it (you can paint the panels, too...). Regards! Chino.

Mario Petrinovich wrote:

Oh yes, regarding how I see that root sequence (or whatever, :wink: ) applied with hanging diffusers, I.....

Mario this room is special and unique. D'Antonio calls it an Ambi-Anechoic room or something. In fact it is an anechoic room, but one were a very dense diffuse field is created at a very low level, and it doesn't show first reflections. In a normal room, you have first those first reflections, then the diffuse fields build up. Here you don't have this first part of first reflections. While never seen it, I think you can compare it with recording or mixing in an anechoic room, but with a dense diffuse field at a low level, which probably will remove or improve the feeling of being in an anechoic room. While all diffusers the absorption is soo high of this construction, that the room is practically excluded from recordings. Hence I think you can call it an anechoic room with some ambiance. (in fact D'antonio himself calls it that) Anything else that you suggest to make, is not that room anymore. This must have cost a fortune, even just to produce all those things. I think this room will be discussed a lot in the future, since it has properties, one finds nowhere else. But if this is really that much better, I don't know. It's a very expensive anechoic room adjusted with a low level diffuse field to make it a more comfortable environment to work in. But I should love to see, feel and hear it. Eric

I couldn't find what D'Antonio said. But I think, what Massenburg said in the link above is pretty accurate. It isn't ambechionic room. It is recording, mixing and critical listening environment. On the link above they said that D'Antonio calls only the principle in action that absorbs sound, "ambechionic". What they achieved with that room is, firstly, they minimalised bounday effect (and comb filtering), and secondly, they managed roughly the same ambience (reverbation time) for highs and lows. In the same time the room has no fiber absorbtion, because the "walls" of the room absorb sound. I think it is a good principle, which could be developed in the cheaper direction. I guess that less costly room would have more boundary effect, and more fiber absorbtion. But, I believe the principle is still ok, and possibly could achieve better results, with less money, than standard rooms. I would really like if somebody try to do this cheaper, to see what would be the result. But, we are still at the begining, and people wonder what the result of this specific room is. If the result is good, maybe we will see more of that. -- Mario

Mario Petrinovich wrote:

On the link above they said that d'Antonio calls only the principle in action that absorbs sound, "ambechionic".

Since d'Antonio is at least the co-brain behind those details together with Massenburg in function of this room, and d'Antonio calls the room ambi anechoic or whatever, it is what d'Antonio sais. Massenburg certainly has described and discussed his dream and vision with d'Antonio. d'Antonio and RPG are not accidentally involved. And whether you find it in that link or not, doesn't change that.

It isn't ambechionic room. It is recording, mixing and critical listening environment.

This second sentence certainly does not describe the typical character of this room, since that sentense applies to numerous rooms, including numerous designed here by people at this Forum. And that second sentense does not confirm the first sentence, but goes hand in hand with the concept as this design proved.

Ok. Thanks Eric. -- Mario