Basement studio-room project in Boston area

GOOD LUCK!! :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

Definitely! Good luck to you on that! What board and licensure exams? --Keith :mrgreen:

Thanx Keith.... RPh for Mass... I'm PharmD (technically, you can call me 'doctor'... lol) K

sharward wrote:

Definitely! Good luck to you on that! What board and licensure exams? --Keith :mrgreen:

AndreasB wrote:

GOOD LUCK!! :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

Thanx Andreas! I'll need it.... K

Fascinating! :D I had no idea... So, you currently hold a PharmD ("Doctor of Pharmacy"), and you're studying for your RPh? I just learned a bit about PharmD, but I can't find anything about RPh... What's the difference? I want to see a picture in your thread of you with a screw gun in one hand, a hammer in the other, eye protection on your face, and a white lab coat on your upper body! :twisted: --Keith :mrgreen:

Well, the RPh (registered pharmacist) is the 'legal' part... You need a PharmD, AND to pass the boards, to get the RPh license in any State.... You CAN 'reciprocate' to other States, but would still need to take at least the jurisprudence exam for the particular State... California, I think, would be different, and I would have to take everything again to reciprocate -- yet would still (again, I believe) have to maintain the 'original' State's license active... If, for example (which I AM planning on doing) I choose to get licensed in NH, I MUST keep the MA license (pay the fees, take the CEU courses), or I won't be able to renew the NH license. K

sharward wrote:

.... I want to see a picture in your thread of you with a screw gun in one hand, a hammer in the other, eye protection on your face, and a white lab coat on your upper body! :twisted: --Keith :mrgreen:

LoL.... OR, I could be using a syringe for the acoustic caulking.... K.....

Now you're talking! 8)

No work to report, but.... I've been looking very strongly now at the use of water 'compatible' materials... Since this IS a basement, and despite the fact that I'll be making it as 'dry' as possible, I feel I should allow for the possibility of 'disaster'... Gypsum drywall, regular KD lumber, and perhaps fiberglass insulation, don't seem like the best options for this.... SO, the idea now is to use cement board, PT framing throughout, and rock wool insulation.... Gypsum drywall (including green board) breaks down when sufficiently wet, and supports mold growth, while cementboard has no problems with remaining wet for long periods (it's even used as exterior cladding on buildings).... Although using PT baseplates, and the remaining as KD, is a good idea, it seems if the baseplates do get wet, or if there were a flood where the depth of water is above the height of the baseplate, water would wick into the KD studs.... Just trying to find more info about Roxul versus fiberglass, but it appears as if rock wool is superior with respect to potential moisture problems... I know a lot of people might get down on me about the difficulties of working with cementboard (and it's 'uncertainty' with respect to soundproofing), and the 'needlesss' added expense of full PT framing, and rock wool insulation, BUT I have to address the possibility of water damage..... Hate to have to go through the entire construction, and then freak out when we get the 'big one', and have that 100 year storm.... (Oh, the outer leaf ceiling will still probably be gypsum drywall layers, and possibly fiberglass insulation.... as I don't EVER expect 8 feet of water -- and if it goes that far, I have other worries, like hoping the chinchillas can swim!) What's everyone think? thanx, K

If we get "the big one" and our levees collapse (which is not far-fetched), which would literally inundate our entire house, roof and all, I think we'll probably head for Portland, Oregon, and never look back... :roll: ...Or possibly Southern California (again).

sharward wrote:

If we get "the big one" and our levees collapse (which is not far-fetched), which would literally inundate our entire house, roof and all, I think we'll probably head for Portland, Oregon, and never look back... :roll: ...Or possibly Southern California (again).

Lol.... Perhaps, keep a boat in the backyard, so that if/when the water gushes down, it might push the boat all the way to Oregon (or, as they say there, 'Organ' :lol: )... But seriously, a 'biggie' here might just drive water into some basements that ain't never had standing problems otherwise (and won't necessarily level the home)... Having the building materials capable of withstanding a minor flood is not a bad idea... In fact, if the water heater or a pipe bursts, or the washing machine seriously leaks, or even if water from the above floor happens to fall to the basement -- all of which are plausible events in ANY house, with or without outside groundwater issues -- you'd be fairly ready for it.... K

heh, now we know the real reason David Gilmour has a studio on a boat....

At the bottom here is a rough diagram (block diagram) of part of a 'fail- safe' sump pump system that I drew up. Both pumps run in tandem (one may run at a lower grade than the other). They run on 110 vac line power is active (i.e., no power failure). There are 2 x 12 vdc deep cycle batteries wired in parallel; these are kept up with a 110 vac to 12 vdc battery charger. They are connected to a 12 vdc to 110 vac inverter. There is a switch which triggers when a line power failure occurs; this switches the pumps from line power to inverter power (a second switch could be added which triggers when the inverter power fails (batteries die out, etc.), that starts a generator and switches power source from inverter to generator.... switches return to original source when that power returns to voltage). There are also 12 vdc aux. terminals that can be hooked to any external 12 vdc sourc, such as automobile jumper cables... A spare 'shelved' pump exists in case one of the pump motors should die; it is actually periodically rotated with the other pumps (to keep it running okay). Finally, there are water level alarms in the sumps to alert if either pump fails to work, or doesn't work fast enough. (an additional power failure alarm can be added inline with each pump's power cable). (note that sumps are not necessarily next to each other; otoh the pumps maybe in the same sump) K

Same diagram as above, except it includes the generator and second failure switch.... Still tweaking it.... The generator may have a line voltage detector that simply sees if line voltage has failed, and then starts generator (this is pretty fancy, but for prolonged power outages during extended rain storms, the battery backup may become exhausted -- if no one were home to start the generator, the pumps would fail) K

That's looking better, K -- I was actually going to comment that it seemed there were some single points of failure in the original diagram. Also, kind of related -- have you seen this cool product? "FlowManager & FloodStop Systems: For Toilet, Washer, Water Heater, Dishwasher or Ice/Water Dispensers... Automatic Water Leak Detection Prevention Shut-Off Valve... Water Leak Detectors." Perhaps you'd find a use for one of their products...? --Keith :mrgreen:

Keith: VERY interestingly enough, the day after I had posted the original diagram without the generator (yesterday, Tuesday) we had a massive wave of thunderstorms, AND a power outage that lasted 4 hours! ... I can't remember the power out for so long.... Needless to say, moneybags had to go out and get a generator! ... It clearly saved the day; the sumps filled up and overflowed some. (this serves to bolster my resolve for using ONLY cement board and PT in the framing). (Note: I have not assembled the pump system yet, except for having 2 pumps, and now the generator) As for the 'single failure points' in the diagram(s), unless there is redundancy with every element and component, there can always be a failure (and even with redundancy that can happen)... But the more 'solid or static' things, like connecting cables and wires and pipes (if constructed and protected correctly), are somewhat less likely to fail than motors, batteries, etc. The reason for having 2 pumps online at any time is a redundancy that can have simultaneous failure, but the 'odds' of it are low (yet a 'spare' pump is a good idea)... It IS possible that the generator can fail from even small things such as no gasoline (doh!); however, the generator will be a 2nd line failure backup, i.e., the failure would have to be driven to the point where the battery backup has been exhausted -- meaning, a prolonged power failure (which is rare, yesterday notwithstanding.... a prolonged failure AND a torrential storm is even rarer, yesterday notwithstanding) Yesterdays outage WOULD have exhausted the batteries, I think. But if I had the aux 12 volt connectors for the batteries/inverter, able to reach an automobile, that could have been used instead of a generator (or if the generator failed); although it would definitely be more efficient if the car had an integral inverter, and then switch to this through aux 110 vac connectors... (having BOTH the 12 vdc and 110 vac aux connectors allows for the failure of the car's inverter!). Honestly, my biggest fear is that I won't be home during a failure that is not automatically corrected by the system. I did not get a generator that has an automatic startup upon failure (don't know yet if a starter can be installed), so that is a weak spot to consider... Water level alarms are then very important, since a long power outage during the middle of the night might go unnoticed (although, these are useless anyway -- if no one's home!). Those FloodStop items look cool; that's the stuff I'm talking about that's good -- all automatic... I should note that I'm now also looking into water-powered backup sump pumps (powered by town's water pressure)... I have loved this elec/mech stuff, since my days in that field...... P.S. I'm not forgetting the grade slope and drainage issues for the yard!! K

sharward wrote:

That's looking better, K -- I was actually going to comment that it seemed there were some single points of failure in the original diagram. Also, kind of related -- have you seen this cool product? "FlowManager & FloodStop Systems: For Toilet, Washer, Water Heater, Dishwasher or Ice/Water Dispensers... Automatic Water Leak Detection Prevention Shut-Off Valve... Water Leak Detectors." Perhaps you'd find a use for one of their products...? --Keith :mrgreen:

Ooops.... In guess-timating how long a battery backup might last, I failed to take into account the pump cycling... I jumped to the conclusion that powering the 2 pumps for 4 hours would not have been possible.... But the pumps will only function for a fraction of given duration, and of course, not continuously... That is, for example as an extreme case, each pump might only go on every 60 seconds, and run for 10 seconds (this represents a rather hefty deluge situation)... Thus, combining values for the pumps: the cycle is 20 seconds for every minute (60 sec / 1 min x 2 pumps x 10 sec / 60 sec / pump). The current is 10 amps per pump, but since we've already combined them, the current is still 10 amps but for double the time (which IS the 20 seconds). Now, many marine deep cycle batteries can be rated at 100 amp-hours (some go much higher); two of these in parallel provides 200 amp-hours (btw, I'm somehow thinking it's probably better to use two batteries of 100 amp-hours, than one battery at 200 amp-hours since they will be in parallel and the chances of both dropping below min. voltage will be less (anyone?)). BUT, remember, this is at 12 volts dc; the pumps run on 110 volts ac. Cheating a bit, I'm gonna simplify a step-down current change from 12 volts dc (continuous) to 110 volts ac RMS: 10 amps at 110 volts is about equal to 92 amps at 12 volts. 200 amp-hours divided by 92 amps is 2.18 hours; the batteries can support 92 amps running for 2.18 hours. But the pumps only cycle for 20 seconds per minute, or 1/3 of the time. So, the period of chronological time that the batteries should be able to support the pumps is 6.5 hours. This is longer than the recent record outage here of 4 hours (can't even remember when another was even an hour long). And, being a bit more liberal (or is it conservative? I can't tell), the pumps would more likely only run an average of 10 seconds per minute, and that would give 13 hours backup time... Further, this is considering a SUSTAINED need for that rate of pumping; it's more likely that as the storm slows and water is pumped away, the intervals would lengthen and the demand will drop. Of note, the cables connecting the batteries to the inverter should be as thick and short as possible to avoid I2R power losses and voltage drop. And it wouldn't hurt for the motors to be wired with 10 or 8 gauge conductors (for the ac side); another possibility would be to run the pumps on 220 vac, but I'm wondering if this might be unnecessarily dangerous (GFCI, notwithstanding). The inverter needs to be able to supply more than 20 amps comfortably in case the two pumps operate simultaneously (I have not planned them to operate alternately, and since the intervals/durations will likely be a bit different, there will be times when they both draw max current at the same time). Also to be accounted for is the head pressure on the pumps (if they have to push the water up too high of a vertical height, they will be less efficient and may run a longer time), and the back-pressure/friction dictated by the length, diameter, and geometry of the piping. My last thing is a concern over cycle time with respects to the sump size and to pump longevity; I've been reading some info about 'sizing' of the sump to the pump to allow it to pump for a longer duration and longer cycle time... not sure what this means, except I understand that the pump should run for a min time to get 'up to speed', and that the more starts and stops are not good for the motor and switches (yet, continuous function might not be all that great for the motor either)... Gee, I'm wondering if I'm figuring this all correctly? Trying to be cautious here... I'll recheck and edit the post if needed.... K

Fascinating stuff. 8) I hope you work out the details. I'll tell you, people should think long and hard before building a basement studio... :roll: --Keith :mrgreen:

Not so, Keith; It's a little-known fact that Handel had a basement studio; without that, we'd never have gotten to hear "Water Music Suite"... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

knightfly wrote:

... It's a little-known fact that Handel had a basement studio; without that, we'd never have gotten to hear "Water Music Suite"...

Of course, Hadyn's early house had only a tiny crawlspace since he was too Baroque for anything better... :? (ouch!) Btw, the water-powered backup pumps have a few disadvantages. First, they ADD water to the amount being pumped, so that the discharge is increased; this is a big disadvantage if the water has few places to go outside (as might be the case in a sustained event or high water table areas) -- this could be an aggravation to a neighborhood. Second, if there is a problem with the valving or piping, and the municipal water actually leaks, not only will there be the groundwater to contend with, but now there is the addition of tap water to the basement.... I think sticking with the battery-backup is a better option for me.... GEEZ, I gotta get back to studying.... but since I'm not doing any physical work on the project, and have a couple weeks off from 'real' work, I just wanted to feel that the project wasn't 'shelved'.... K

Here is the latest sump pump system diagram.... There are now FOUR pumps, two ac and two dc... The dc pumps are always online, but their float levels are higher and so they won't engage unless the ac pump(s) fail for any reason (power out, pump burnout, etc.), OR if the sump refill rate is faster than the ac pumps can handle... The need for the inverter is negated, as is the spare pump... BUT the battery charger could also be used as a dc power supply (in non-power-failure mode, but high water entry times) The dc pump floats also engage the high water alarm... The ac pumps may or may not be alternated (although, I'm thinking this is not a good idea, as it might prevent a higher capacity during fast sump refill rates... yet this might allow the dc pumps to 'exercise') to allow easier combining of plumbing (?)... Depending upon battery life (and the desire to go 'overboard'), the generator can be adapted to autostart and perhaps even natural gas too :? ... the only complication here is deciding if the generator should start only after detecting low battery voltage, or just low/no line voltage. (Btw, the batteries/charger for the dc pumps should have a method of alert when the charger fails or voltage drops too low on the batteries -- not just a signal to start generator.) I should note that before, even with only a single ac pump, the sump was never overwhelmed with water during even extreme events (line power on of course), so the use of the dc pumps might much more likely be used for power outages and ac pump burnout, than high water entry amount... K

That looks like an awesome plan. 8) I'm of course no expert at this -- living in this part of the country, as I can count on one hand the number of residential basements I've been in (one of which was out of state), and I didn't even know what a sump pump was until I started hanging out on this forum! :lol: But I do recognize, from first-hand experience, the power of even a small amount of water to cause major damage. I'm also an IT guy that works on systems with "fault tolerance" and "redundancies" -- and it seems you're definitely on the right track in designing a system with multiple points of failure and accommodation for those failures. I have a feeling that whatever plan you end up finalizing will become the gold standard for reference on this forum. 8) Perhaps you can share this plan with some licensed basement waterproofing contractors to get their two cents as well. They may think of something you haven't. Or they'll shower you with compliments and that feels good. ;-) --Keith :mrgreen:

Ahh, but here is a version, with 4 AC motor pumps.... There are advantages to ac motors over dc motors (one reason that I didn't at first consider the dc pumps).... Of course, the inverter is required again... Interestingly, ac motors are more efficient... On Boston's 'Red Line' subway, they bought a bunch of trains several years ago that actually have ac motors, even though the third rail is dc (the older trains still run on dc)... So, this means inversion of the power to ac on board the train; apparently they considered it worth it to do it that way... The other benefits of running ac pumps are: I would be able to use smaller gauge and longer wire, not needing to worry so much about voltages drops and power losses (my sumps are 40 feet away from each other; you CAN run 20 foot battery cables, but they have to be very thick and there WOULD be power losses); Of course, I could opt to have TWO battery chargers and place a single battery right next to the sumps... So if I go ac, I would not need to keep the batteries as near as possible to the pumps. Plus, being all ac pumps, they could be switched to run through different circuits, if needed, and can be rotated with each other. If they are more efficient, any power losses of the inverter might be more than made up for.... K

Halo: Can someone try to explain what is going on with this scenario: If you have seen my earlier posts on the 'studio-room in boston area' thread, you noticed that I 'sistered' the joists of the floor ABOVE where the studio will be.... I did this because I will be adding mass in those joist bays for the outer-leaf ceiling of the studio, and I wanted to strengthen them to ensure safe support... What I have noticed is this: When I knock on the doubled joists, I hear a subdued thud... When I knock on the joists that have NOT been sistered, I hear a much higher pitch and a 'ring' type reverberation... There is very little or no reverberation at all with the sistered joists.... What's up with this?... What I'm thinking is that the mass of the joists is doubled, and so the pitch should be halved?... But of course this is a simplistic model, since the floors are also stiffened (deflection decreased) although the floor loads are still about the same... But again, if things are stiffened, then that would mean an increase in pitch, no?... Yet, what I'm hearing seems to indicate a lower pitch (maybe the stiffeness increase is not as great as the doubling of mass increase?) So, I'm also thinking that the vibration of the joists is of less energy -- not just a lower pitch... Am I on the right track here? Is this good or bad.... or a mixed bag? If the pitch is lowered, it could be bad because higher pitches are easier to block? Although if the energy of setting it in vibration is lowered, maybe it balances out? Gonna see if I can verify the pitch and damping a little bit more closer; maybe I'm mistaken..... thanx, K

Pitch with sisters being lower and QUIETER is a good thing; if it were lower and LOUDER it would be bad. Your second leaf will presumably differ a LOT from the first, so shouldn't let any of the primary resonances of the upper leaf through. Keep in mind that, although low freq's are harder to stop, the lower they get the less we hear them; until at around 50 hZ, the threshold of human hearing is around 55 dB... Steve

Yes Steve, The inner leaf ceiling will actually have back-to-back steel 2 by 4's (162-S-400 20 gauge structural; with that, the shape of the members are 'I's' 4 inches tall and 3.25 inches wide, with a combined 14 'gauge' thickness), this is much different than the wood... K

knightfly wrote:

Pitch with sisters being lower and QUIETER is a good thing; if it were lower and LOUDER it would be bad. Your second leaf will presumably differ a LOT from the first, so shouldn't let any of the primary resonances of the upper leaf through. Keep in mind that, although low freq's are harder to stop, the lower they get the less we hear them; until at around 50 hZ, the threshold of human hearing is around 55 dB... Steve