Seeking: Studio Construction Pointers

We are going to be opening a recording studio / concert hall in Augusta Georgia next month. Here's what we are facing. . . A 6000 sq ft room. In this room is going to be a small concert venue. The owner wants the control room to be visable to the crowd. That means, the control room will need to withstand at least 110 to 120 db. We have been trying to decide between the pre-fab'd rooms, or build from ground up. So my questions are. . . 1) Generally, any thoughts one way or the other? 2) Price difference. (I know the uber-booths are about 60k) 3) Amount of time it takes to build a room from ground up? (Including electrical, venting, ect) 4 weeks? 4 months? 1 year? We wanted to start construction in 4 weeks. We were leaning toward the pre-fab'd rooms, but the owner wants it built from ground up. I normally wouldn't care, but I have this fear he's going to hire a company that doesn't have a clue about sound proofing. It's going to be a battle with the owner. I need all the weapons I can get. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

If you can find a prefab that will GUARANTEE you 60 dB @ 50 hZ and STC 80 or better, I'd buy it. When the prefab people you talk to get finished swallowing their tongues at that request, you should probably build. You're talking Sylomer-floated 6" concrete slab, 6" minimum concrete outer shell, about 18" air gap minimum, and probably 3-4 layers of 5/8 gypsum wallboard for inner leaf with Green Glue on at least one or two layers, MINIMUM - double Overly door sound lock, (about $14,000 just for that) de-coupled conduits, and a mass-air-mass ceiling/roof that can match those specs. That's just off the top of my head, but should be close to what you'll need for what you want to do. Cost should run between $50-$65K for a 270 sf CR... Steve

Just off the top of your head, eh? That's the kind of stuff I needed to know. Thank you. I'm going to continue my research. What do you think about the time it would take to complete. Money is not an issue, honestly. We're going to build the best room money can buy. I just don't know what that is yet. Can you suggest anyone in the Georgia area?

This may sound like a stupid question but WHY do you need 120 dB of isolation? Are you going to be doing a final mix WHILE the concert is in progress? I have been going through this very dilema with my studio (which Steve has been most gracious in helping me sort out!). My speaker baffle walls were going to be too small and in order to make them big enough, we'd have to cut the window down to about 1 foot wide. But then we got to thinking that I only need see out the window when I'm tracking, and I only need the accurate reproduction when I'm mixing (i.e., AFTER the tracking is done). The solution is a fold out wall on either side of the window that is only pulled out for the mixing process. So what I'm getting out is think about not only what you want to do in the control room, but WHEN. You'll have different requirements. Knightfly's suggestions are right on if you HAVE to do both jobs at the same time. Your other alternative is to do something like you see while waiting in line at Disneyland: A visible control room with lots of blinky lights and maybe a maniquin (sp?) on a motor that LOOKS like an active control room, and then put the real one somewhere where isolation is a little easier to achieve. len

len-morgan wrote:

=Your other alternative is to do something like you see while waiting in line at Disneyland: A visible control room with lots of blinky lights and maybe a maniquin (sp?) on a motor that LOOKS like an active control room, and then put the real one somewhere where isolation is a little easier to achieve.

8) 8) 8) Space Mountain!!! 8) 8) 8)

I was thinking of "Star Tours" It's been at LEAST 15 years since I've been to Disneyland so I don't know what the "new" Space Mountain is like. len

This may sound like a stupid question but WHY do you need 120 dB of isolation? Are you going to be doing a final mix WHILE the concert is in progress?

The control room, besides operating as your typical pro-tools room, it's going to record the concerts live (That's the reason for the 110 to 120 db issue). We are then going to have that show available for purchase as soon as that show is completed. And the the other reason is, the owner wants the crowd to be able to see the engineer working. Don't ask me why, I don't know. I guess it's because we're putting the big Digidesigns Icon board in. For that type of money, I think he wants to show off a little. But I'm just guessing about that. That's what we are facing. Live band, PA, crowd noise, and any thing else we can't think of at the moment. I was checking out www.quietsolution.com. Has anyone heard anything about their material? Anyone used it? On paper it sounds impressive. Thanks for all the help. But I don't think we are going to do a Star Tours room. lol

GrooveProphet wrote:

Thanks for all the help. But I don't think we are going to do a Star Tours room. lol

I don't know. Maybe it could be another source of revenue! However, I would advise not using Chewbacca as your engineer. Aside from the copyright issues, it might look a little cheezy.

GrooveProphet wrote:

We are then going to have that show available for purchase as soon as that show is completed.

You forgot to mention that little detail. However, realisticallly, can you duplicate enough CDs in such a short period of time? You've probably got 20 minutes max before the place is empty and I don't know how long I'd want to hang around after a concert waiting for a CD. Personally, I'd be willing to pay my money and have you mail it to me the next day. Have you considered the legal ramifications of reproducing copyrighted materials without the proper licensing? A BMI or ASCAP license only covers the PERFORMANCE of the music. Reproduction (a "mechanical" license) is another entirely separate set of licenses (currently about .085/song/copy depending on the length of the song). If you have 10 songs on a CD (.80/CD) and distribute say 1000 of them, you're looking at $800 in licensing fees. Hopefully, you've thought this all out already.

GrooveProphet wrote:

And the the other reason is, the owner wants the crowd to be able to see the engineer working

If a large part of the crowd is going to be able to see him working, you're talking about a LOT of glass around the booth. I was under the impression that the booth would be above the venue (maybe at the front of the balcony). That being the case, the crowd is going to see his head and what ever is behind him plus the BACK of the mixing board. If you go with a glass-all-around booth, you're isolation is going to be crap. What about a live video feed of a control room that the audience can see? Try to do a couple of 3D pictures to show the owner to give him/her an idea of what the crowd will actually be able to see. len

As for the live recording thing, we're still working out the details. Obviously, some shows will simply not be made available. But that's something the owner is working out the details on. I agree, the logistics of making that work are near impossible. I also agree with you, people will clear out in less than 20 minutes. I'd be willing to mail the CD's the following day. For control room visability, I think it would be a standard control room window size. But we have discussed putting up a bunch of 40" plasmas and doing feeds from different areas of the building. I don't think money will be any kind of issue. You made a lot of great points. I do appreciate it. Here's the big question that I still need answered. How long do you think it would take to build a "spare no expense" ultra quiet control room?

grooveprophet wrote:

Here's the big question that I still need answered. How long do you think it would take to build a "spare no expense" ultra quiet control room?

You COULD build it in a day (allowing for paint and joint compound to dry, maybe two days) if you had an unlimited number of people to do the work. I think what would be most helpful to all of us here is if you could give us some idea (drawing, rough sketch, etc) of where the control room is going to be in relation to the rest of the concert hall, where is the audience going to sit, etc. If plasma screens are an option, I'd seriously consider building the control room outside of the main performance area (like in the lobby) so lots of people could see it as they came in and out and watch it on plasma screens if they wanted to listen to the music. Personally, I'd go watch a performance to watch a performance, not an engineer mixing a performance. By putting it out in the lobby (with the window maybe in the back wall of the concert hall like in a movie theater), you're isolation problem becomes more managable. len

Well, as you can see from the picture up top, it's pretty much one big room. All options are on the table. I mainly started this post to answer a few basic questions. . . 1) Generally, any thoughts one way or the other (pre-fab'd or build from scratch)? 2) Price difference. (I know the uber-booths are about 60k) 3) Amount of time it takes to build a room from ground up? (Including electrical, venting, ect) 4 weeks? 4 months? 1 year? I don't have any designs until we decide if we are doing a pre-fab or a ground up build. Check out Knightfly's response. That's the type of info I'm looking for right now. BTW - Knightfly, thanks again. I sent that info off to the owner. It will help in our decision a lot.

I think the most important point in Knightfly's answer as far as build/buy is the GUARANTEE. I guess I missed the point that the picture WAS the performance area. I was thinking there would be seats and such and that you'd posted a picture of the lobby. I would think with proper design before hand, you could do the actual construction in less than a month assuming that you could get builders that would follow directions (since isolaltion construction doesn't "work" like building a house). len

That's exactly my fear about building from ground up. We need a company that knows what they're doing. As for the picture. We just aquired the building. We WILL be putting a stage, lighting, PA, and fixed seating. Plus a heck of a lot of decor. But we did plan on building the control room in to that room.

I would think with proper design before hand, you could do the actual construction in less than a month assuming that you could get builders that would follow directions (since isolaltion construction doesn't "work" like building a house).

With that in mind, do you know of any companies experienced in building studios in the Georgia area?

I don't even know of one in MY area! I'd suggest you call around to a few recording studios in the area (there's bound to be a few in Atlanta) and ask them who built their studios. Best I can do for ya. len

grooveprophet wrote:

We are going to be opening a recording studio / concert hall in Augusta Georgia next month. Here's what we are facing. . .

Seeing as you don't even have a design - don't you think scheduling an opening next month is a bit pre-mature?

A 6000 sq ft room. In this room is going to be a small concert venue. The owner wants the control room to be visable to the crowd. That means, the control room will need to withstand at least 110 to 120 db. We have been trying to decide between the pre-fab'd rooms, or build from ground up.

That is actually an insane statement........... you apparently have no idea what you're asking here. One of the quietest facilities on the planet is Galaxy, and it doesn't have that level of isolation. To acheive what you're talking about - you would need a floating concrete bunker - elevated concrete slab on top of massive springs - with concrete walls and ceiling - and then inside that you would have to construct your finished room. There isn't a door manufacturer on the planet that makes a door anywhere near those levels of isolation (not even with double door assemblies) so you're talking contracting one of them to design special doors for your use. If you started today with design - you couldn't complete design in 3 months - never mind complete design, construct and open next month.

So my questions are. . . 1) Generally, any thoughts one way or the other?

First and formost - hire a studio architect - someone who only does that for a living.

2) Price difference. (I know the uber-booths are about 60k)

Seeing as an ubber-booth can't acheive your goals (assuming your goals are what you think they are) - their cost is irrevelant............

3) Amount of time it takes to build a room from ground up? (Including electrical, venting, ect) 4 weeks? 4 months? 1 year?

It all depends on the final design - with a floating bunker (if you could get the design done in 4 months) - then 2 weeks of bidding and contract award - two more weeks for the contractor to mobolize and provide shop drawings - one week for shop approvals - one more week to get the reinforcing onsite and form - then pour. Now you wait at least 28 days of curing before you can begin the wall sections.......... 56 if the engineer of record doesn't like the break results. And believe me when I tell you that this timeline is more than perfect execution of the work - you'll have to pay big bucks for a fantastic construction manager to pull this off that smoothly......... So we are 6 months and a week and you now have your isolated slab to work on. You'll be another 3 weeks for walls - and then 2 more weeks to pour the roof - lots of shoring inside the room to carry the formwork - and then at least another 28 days before you can remove the formwork and any shoring...... That now places your schedule at 8 months one week to get to the point where you have a room you can begin framing in. From there you can probably complete the work within 3 to 4 months depending on final design - one week for testing and final treatments and you're ready to open. So let's say 13 months to a finished room. AND - this is all assuming that your existing slab can handle the load (which is possible - but not highly probable) - removing the existing and reinforcing it to get the job done will add another 2 to 2 1/2 months to the job. So possibly 15 to 16 months. As far as cost goes - your bet is as good as mine -

We wanted to start construction in 4 weeks. We were leaning toward the pre-fab'd rooms, but the owner wants it built from ground up. I normally wouldn't care, but I have this fear he's going to hire a company that doesn't have a clue about sound proofing. It's going to be a battle with the owner. I need all the weapons I can get.

My fear is that none of you have a clue what you're getting into - no real understanding of what your expectations mean - and no plans to work from - which is really where all of this begins from.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Best advice I can give is slow down - first find the architect who specializes in these rooms - let him/her guide you through what it is you really REALLY need for isolation, pay him to oversee the construction - pay him to sit in on pre-bid meetings so that the contractors bidding understand exactly what is required of them in the performance of their work - and then pay him to inspect that work every step of the way to verify that the owner is getting exactly what is in the design package. At least this will bring some reality into the process. Sincerely, Rod

Ok Rod, just relax. Damn brotha, you got all worked up, and kinda became a little insulting.

Seeing as you don't even have a design - don't you think scheduling an opening next month is a bit pre-mature?

I did word that incorrectly. We aquire the building in a month. All construction can begin at that point. The opening date has not been determinded. Obviously that's pending completion on construction.

Quote: That is actually an insane statement........... you apparently have no idea what you're asking here.

How is that insane? I never said I need a soundproof room to handle 110db. I just said I need something that can be functional with that amount of noise outside.

First and formost - hire a studio architect - someone who only does that for a living.

ok, that's the exact reason I'm posting this. The first thing I said is, I don't know how to do this. Can someone please suggest a company to me.

Quote: My fear is that none of you have a clue what you're getting into - no real understanding of what your expectations mean - and no plans to work from - which is really where all of this begins from.

Once again, that's why I'm here. And construction just doesn't mean control room and iso booths. It means the entire venue. Sure, the control room and iso booths may not start for a few months, but general construction starts next month.

Best advice I can give is slow down - first find the architect who specializes in these rooms - let him/her guide you through what it is you really REALLY need for isolation, pay him to oversee the construction - pay him to sit in on pre-bid meetings so that the contractors bidding understand exactly what is required of them in the performance of their work - and then pay him to inspect that work every step of the way to verify that the owner is getting exactly what is in the design package.

Great idea. Who? Do you have any suggestions?

grooveprophet, sorry if I came of tense - did not mean to insult you - but it never ceases to amaze me the number of people who post (and by this I mean commercial ventures) that they are ready to begin work - and don't have any clear cut plans...... I would call Wes Lachot - [removed] He's one of the best in the business. Tell him I gave you his name......... Rod

sorry if I came of tense - did not mean to insult you - but it never ceases to amaze me the number of people who post (and by this I mean commercial ventures) that they are ready to begin work - and don't have any clear cut plans......

No problem. Here's my situation. I don't know the first thing about building a control room and iso booths. Well, at least not to this high of a quality. That's why I'm here. I was told there are some amazing people who post on this site. I thank you for your referral. While we hope to open this summer, we are willing to do what's necessary to do it right. Anyways, the studio can open after the theater does any way. I will pass along this phone number to the owner. He will call him this afternoon. That you very much. I appreciate the lead!

Personally... I think all of you are off on the wrong track... I will throw my 3 cents in when I get home from work, later this evening. PSS. Don't anyone think of being offended by that statement either... there is a call for a reset here thats all. I will try to explain when I get home.

Personally... I think all of you are off on the wrong track... I will throw my 3 cents in when I get home from work, later this evening.

I'll take all the suggestions I can get. Thanks!