Bought our first house, building my studio.

Hello! I've read alot in this forum now, and I hope I've gotten through all the required reading before I post this. First I'll let you know where I am in the process of making my new studio. We have just bought a house http://tinyurl.com/7arrw (only pics from the ad right now, sorry.. We haven't moved in yet. Many rooms aren't showing in the ad. I've picked a room in the basement, under the garage, for my studio. We're moving in at the end of february, so I'm still in the planning stage. I want to make sure everything is right before I pick up any tools :) Here is a floor plan of part of the basement. And here's a crappy 3D shot of how the room looks now After reading a couple of other articles as well, I feel that the highlighted room is the best. - solid concrete floor - cinder block walls (thickness unknown now) - cinder "plank" (correct word?) ceiling. - It's an outside corner room - The above room is our double garage. - It's the room furthest away from any of the other used rooms in the house. - It's currently unused, and I can start from as scratch as you can, save building the house itself from scratch :) This side of the house is facing a road, and one of my neighbours, but we have some space between us, so I don't think it's gonna be a problem. The road isn't all that much trafficated, plus I have a lawn and some trees separating it from the house. The room to the right is just another empty leca/concrete room. I was first thinking this could be a øove room, but I haven't quite decided on whether or not I should have it. Optionally I'm thinking a lounge, with some videogames and some comfy seating, a dvd player and a tv. I would want to have a vocal booth though. I must say though, if putting up a recording room when I'm first building this isn't "too much hassle" and eats too much money, then I might consider doing it. As you can see from the images, the two rooms aren't entirely separated, the middle wall is open at the end, allowing you to pass through each of the rooms at their ends. What I figured was this: Closing of both rooms with a wall along their short ends, creating a corridor with doors leading to each room. That would make the floor plan like this: Does it make sense to do this? Now - leaving the thin wall will make the room pretty narrow.. But will it be too narrow for some proper walls to be set up? If there's enough space, I'd like to have a floating room. I'm also thinking it could be possible to remove the middle wall, and have a bigger studio, and just incorporate a lounge corner in that. I'm looking at some of the SAE plans and trying to make something out of that.. My gear centers alot around synthesizers, I have several keyboard units, some rack units (including my mixer). I'm thinking about getting an Argosy console, one of the dual 15k units. Plus some keyboard stands on my left and right side. As for how loud I am, I normally work at a "low" level, with the occasional crank up to check how it sits at high levels. I mostly produce club/electro music. - Suggestions for design of the studio? - Should the new wall be of cinderblock as well? - ..or just studs with leaves on each side? - is cinder block in the exisisting walls a bad starting point? - Should I cover the existing cinder walls with anything? - should I put a window to the outside? Or will it just cause a whole lot of potential acoustic trouble just for some daylight? - The room height is about 210, 215cm high.. Is this a bit on the low side for creating a floating room? Sorry for not providing exact measurements yet, but I asked the people we are buying this from if I could come take some measures but they said "no", not until we have signed the contract.. :? It's not like I was gonna start tearing down walls.. Anyway. My budget is not too important.. I would really like some suggestions.. I can do this project over a little time to make it as good as possible. Plus, I can do alot of the work myself, and I know other carpenters that can help me out. I also get most materials cheap through the firm I work in. Good discounts.. If I have to state a price, I'd be happy if I could land around $1500. I have no idea right now if that is realistic or not, so just let me know. Massive ammounts of resources here! I'm really excited about getting started on this. :D Edit: Second thought.. Maybe drop the new wall altogether, and have direct entrance to the floating room? It's inconvenient because I loose the corridor between the studio and the apartment living room, which I would suppose helps TL? But then again, I get more space for thicker leaves. Hm.. The entrance could lead straight to the lounge part though, there won't be as much noise there as in the control room..

Alex, you'll need to look at that wall VERY carefully - it's likely load bearing, and removing it = DEATH unless you compensate. Likely you will need a local engineer on this one... Steve

Yes, I am aware of that it might be bearing, and I will definitely look into that once I get access to the real drawings of the house. If it should be that way, then I will replace it with a, I don't know the english word for it, but maybe "steel bar"? instead, supporting the ceiling with vertically adjustable poles when I replace the wall with the bearing bar. I have people to help me with this if it's needed.. I will post the real drawings of the house once I get them (hopefully this coming week). Sorry if my english terms are slightly off here.. Alex

No problem; the steel bar would be called an "I" beam, because that's what it looks like from the end (the letter I ) - and yes, that's what you'd need to do if that wall IS a bearing wall as it may well be... Steve

Finally we have moved in! Here are some photos, and the last picture is a correct floorplan. The door is very low, so maybe it's an idea to lower the outside gruond, cut out some of the cinder block in the bottom to allow for a taller door. I'm also going to remove the constructions on each side of the door. The first room, taken from the inner end wall. You can see the entrance to the right. Taken just as you enter the room and look to your left side. The opening to the next identical room room2, identical to room1, except some half wall thingy that I don't know what purpose serves.. Here is the wall separating the two rooms. The cinder block is 20cm wide. here is a detailshot from the separating wall up against the ceiling. It definitely looks like it's a bearing wall, since it runs the other way than the cinder "plank" on top. Taken from the opening to room2, you can see the entrance to the small room. It was very hard to get a good shot of this room, but I tried. This was thought of as a lounge area, or maybe I'll just leave it as a storage room. Suggestions? Plan drawing of the area. In essence, the two rectangular rooms are thought of as studio area, incorporating atleast a control room and a vocal booth. Goals

1. A great control room. The control room will be the most used one, as I mostly do my own productions, mixes and remixes. It's the "work room". 2. If I have a live room, it will not be used often, so I'm considering ditching it, but if I find a nice layout that I think will work I might build it after all, and maybe do some band recording there as well. 3. To have a small, but decent vocal booth for recording one vocalist. 4. To not disturb the people living in the apartment behind the rooms.

Facts

-I've realised that my previous "budget" plan was a bit of a joke.. It'll probably be (a lot) more expensive than that. So, maybe around $3700 - $7400 then. - The walls are cinderblock, I would think the outside walls are atleast 20cm, since the separating wall is 20cm. - The ceiling is what I so far call "cinder plank", as they are long slabs of cinder. - on 2-flip_room1.jpg you see something that looks like yellow brick on the wall, but that's not the case. For some reason the previous owners have put up some sort of paper-maché, that LOOKS like a brickwall. It's just nailed to whatever is behind. I'm not quite sure if the actual wall between this room and the apartment living room is cinderblock or just drywall/etc. I will check this out. - The apartment is now rented out to someone, and I hope I can have as little sound as possible reaching them. - I usually monitor at low levels, with the occasional high, to check things.

Problems Now, there is an issue with the ceiling height as you can see.. it's just 212cm.. There are two options I guess. Either

1. live with it, having thinner floor and ceiling. Or, 2. using (I don't know what it's called) but, carving out the concrete floor to get more height, and make a new floor. The problem is I don't know what is underneath.. Could be hard rock for all I know..

Questions:

1. Would it be an idea to move the entire entrance door more to the right, to have it parallel with the opening between room1 and 2? (This would allow the creation of a straight hall). 2. What kind of treatment would the cinder walls need? Should I attach some drywall or similiar? 3. Do the cinder walls act as one leaf, so I should then have air, and one more wall? If I count as describet.. 1 - 2.. 4. Or is the outside wall not related to the M-A-M principle, and I need a new set of double walls within the cinderblock. 5. Is it OK to leave the ceiling height as it is, and have less mass and only 1 leaf in the floor and ceiling, and have thicker walls, or is the room only as soundproof as it's weakest point (being its walls, floor or ceiling)?

I hope that covered it all.. If not, just ask :) I'm still absorbing information from the different threads, so I guess some of these questions will answer themselves when I find the right information for me..

your ceiling is what they call durarock.

That ceiling is also holding up the garage above so I'd be pretty sure that the middle wall is loadbearing. Better get an engineer to check it. The ceiling is disasterously low ;) It would be illegal in my country. There is no way you can float a floor. you might able to insert an opening in the middle wall instead of removing the whole thing - just add a steel I Beam over the opening. here's an option anyway if you can remove part of the middle wall. cheers john

John, your suggestion is very good, and if it hadn't been for a few conditions that force me to do something else, I would've gone for it. After some inspiration from your suggestion, and a lot of thinking, I've come up with this: Gray lines show 20cm cinder walls, except from the wall where the entrance door is placed. This wall is older than the rest, and is some kind of other brick type. Black lines show single leaf walls. I've placed a double wall between the hallway and the control room, since I want the least sound possible reaching the apartment living room. 1. The main entrance is moved, I think this new location is better, because you have the platform above giving some shelter from wind/snow/rain on the door. 2. The hallway is added for free passage to the storage room without going through the control room. I guess I won't be running to and fro the storage room everyday, but the hallway also serves another purpose... 3. The hallway itself would help prevent sound from reaching the apartment living room? 4. Should the wall on the apartment-side of the hall also be double? 5. The red dotted line indicates a steel I beam as you suggested, I've done some research and also had an engineer telling me what kind of specs it should have. 6. I need to fit my gf in down there, so the pc room is for her ;) I need a lot of space for synthesizers as I have less rack gear and more keys. The optional 2 bay rack is taken into account as I'll probably expand more on outboard gear from now on. What do you think? Best, Alex

That looks fine Alex - I wouldn't bother with all the walls in the hallway. cheers john

did you consider this alternative? so your GF has free access in and out without disturbing you? cheers john

John - that is perfect. I'll definitely go with that one. Not only has my gf access without disturbing me - the control room is now as far away from anything else in the house as it can possibly be. simply genious - geniously simple! So you'd make the apartment/hallway wall like this: and not like this: And you'd set up a cinderblock wall in the vocalbooth/hallway-wall too? Like this: and not like this: And I guess I can skip the entrance to the vocal booth from the hallway, since it's accessible trough the studio? I guess it's left there cause you just did some quick editing to show me this last alternative? Thanks a lot, this really helps! I've done some video documenting of the "demolition" of the crap that's inside the room now, and also the wooden platformish strange construction where my new door will be. Photos and video will be available!

forget the i beam idea it will never work. The cinderblock wall is supporting a concrete slap garage. Even if you could add an I-beam it would be hanging down to nearly 6 foot if not lower. So what is the point of trying to remove the wall when you have to duck under an I beam running the length of the new room. You could possibly open a door way but taking down half the wall will not be an option. Wall in one of the rooms and start having fun.

Yeah, I'm sure that wall was put there because it has to be there. Why else would it be? :roll:

Alex - you are heading for overkill. I would build a new block wall that divides off the studio area. I'd leave the apartment wall in the hallway alone, if the block wall blocks the atudio area off the hallway should be fine. I wouldn't bother to build an internal wall in the PC room either - there is no reason to soundproof that room. So all that's left is a new set of walls fro the control room and the booth as I drew in my plan. cheers john

packrat wrote:

forget the i beam idea it will never work. The cinderblock wall is supporting a concrete slap garage. Even if you could add an I-beam it would be hanging down to nearly 6 foot if not lower. So what is the point of trying to remove the wall when you have to duck under an I beam running the length of the new room. You could possibly open a door way but taking down half the wall will not be an option. Wall in one of the rooms and start having fun.

Yes the wall is supporting the garage floor.. I've done some measuring, and the there will be just around 2m under the I-beam.. That -is- low, I'll admit that, but I can walk underneath it, and I'll always be seated in the room anyways.. What do you think? The rooms as they are now are kind of annoying, they're too narrow..

Hey, here are a few photos from the work with the door: photo taken after some cutting.. dusty! some parts of a custom built desk another part of the wall.. looks like there's been some moisture there?

John Sayers wrote:

Alex - you are heading for overkill. I would build a new block wall that divides off the studio area. I'd leave the apartment wall in the hallway alone, if the block wall blocks the atudio area off the hallway should be fine.

Allright. But should the apt. wall really be untreated like it is now? (See pics). It's only an old block wall, not even insulated. I feel silly for asking but I just want to make sure.. :roll:

John Sayers wrote:

I wouldn't bother to build an internal wall in the PC room either - there is no reason to soundproof that room. So all that's left is a new set of walls fro the control room and the booth as I drew in my plan. cheers john

I would think that atleast the outside-facing wall needs insulation? It gets quite cold there in the winter.. So your brown walls shows one set of studs w/insulation and boards, am I correct? With a little air gap from the blockwalls, or am I taking your plan too literally? :) Thanks for all the help.

Alex, First of all, I get shit scared when I saw the pics of the rotten framed wall. Could you please make a plot plan which indicate what is above and belove ground level, include the whole ground level. I hope I worry for nothing, but I cant be quiet if I think you building something that will be spoiled by moisture. you must find the reason to the moisture before even start to build a studio! Looking forward to the basement plot plan. Cheers

I don't know if this is good enough, but check it out. blue arrows indicate downward terrain, the red arrow indicates upward terrain. As you can see, in the corner where I'm putting the new door, there was a lot of earth/dirt propped up against the wall, with no treatment of the wall whatsoever. Only blocks, and moist would have no problem travelling through the wall I'd reckon. The part of the wall you're worried about is in the middle of the house. Maybe the moist have travelled from the outside wall and to that point? The pile of earth is under roofing, and the soil is dry (atleast now?) but maybe it has been wet at some point? Anyways, I guess I have to dig a line outside the entire wall, and add that hard black plastic (english term?), and I also have to put cement on the blockwall so it isn't "bare naked". I have no idea why the builders of the house put that big chunk of earth there, it's like begging to get moisture inside.. Especially with no protection for the walls.

Alex, Drawing is explaining well. Where about in Norway are you living? Asking to understand your location climate cycles. I'm also puzzled why a fairly new house has this kind of a problems and even more why did they (builders) dump soil on an untreated wall???. You mentioned that it is inside the house the moisture wall is, can you make a circle or a coloured line where it appeares. To dig around the house mean a lot of work, (time) or worse (a cost), dont want to kill your spirit, only want to be critical and ask those questions needed to be asked by a third party!!!! I'm just in a starting phase myself but my building are on above ground elevation. See my thread in studio design, I'll start to build comming sunday, about 80% of materia are ordered. Looking forward to get critisicm (imrovement before I build an error). Cheers (Ha det) Kaj

Alex, Sorry to bother you. Have you used a moisture analyzer on the outer walls in the basement? If not, get it done before perma frost dries out everything and you get the wet surprise in the springtime!! Cheers (ha det så godt) Kaj

I totally agree that you need to address the moisture issue before you build down there. You'll definitely want to read through all of Andy Eade's Rotten Basement Conversion Thread. There you'll see a similar discovery, although his was much worse -- he had damage caused by moisture and termites (and I'm sure the the two conspired together to make things worse over time!). There is light at the end of the tunnel for him. He's now actively building, but he ran into a lot of issues that had to be fixed before he could start to build. --Keith :mrgreen:

Kaj wrote:

Alex, Drawing is explaining well. Where about in Norway are you living? Asking to understand your location climate cycles.

Great! I live just outside Hamar, with the Vikingship and OL'94 :)

Kaj wrote:

I'm also puzzled why a fairly new house has this kind of a problems and even more why did they (builders) dump soil on an untreated wall???.

Me too! :? I even found a section of insulation OUTside the wall, covered with soil. Great for sucking up all moisture in the soil and transferring it into the wall, dont you think? :P

Kaj wrote:

You mentioned that it is inside the house the moisture wall is, can you make a circle or a coloured line where it appeares. To dig around the house mean a lot of work, (time) or worse (a cost), dont want to kill your spirit, only want to be critical and ask those questions needed to be asked by a third party!!!!

No problem, that's why I'm posting here :) Well not necessarily dig around the entire house, but the secion around the studio entrance.. I think that's the most "sketchy" areas of the house, with a couple of strange wooden structures and platforms covering up just piles of soil. (Like the one I've removed now). btw, if you look at page 1, and my first post, you can see an overview photo of the house, there you get a pretty good idea of the terrain.

Kaj wrote:

I'm just in a starting phase myself but my building are on above ground elevation. See my thread in studio design, I'll start to build comming sunday, about 80% of materia are ordered. Looking forward to get critisicm (imrovement before I build an error). Cheers (Ha det) Kaj

Lucky you :) I'll check out your thread! Thanks for checking in. Ha det godt!

Kaj wrote:

Alex, Sorry to bother you. Have you used a moisture analyzer on the outer walls in the basement? If not, get it done before perma frost dries out everything and you get the wet surprise in the springtime!! Cheers (ha det så godt) Kaj

I'll get it done! I think my boss has one of those actually. I don't want no wet surprises :evil: Thanks the same (Takk i like måte)

The yellow circle shows where the wall moist is. The blue circle shows where another moist spot I discovered is.. (I can't remember having seen that one before, really.. hm It must be coming from here somewhere? the blue dot shows approx where the spot appears in the ceiling below.. I think maybe it's even more in front of the garage. It's the same up here, the wooden platform in front of the main entrance/kitchen window, is covering lots of soil.. could it be the inward corner of the house? Something leaking through the masses there? Another example of soil propped up against the wall. I wouldn't be surprised if the wall behind is unprotected. I'm going to remove this!! :evil: here you see an example of what it's like on the wall with the new door. The soil is pretty far up on the wall, with nothing to protect the wall. remains of the insulation piece I found..