OK - here's an odd one...

Started by markmarshall on 9 February 2006. 9 replies, 2006–2007.

Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 5603.

Hi all. First off - thanks for this forum - hours of great reading already. Here's an odd one. First off - about my recording habits. I occasionally do voice-over work, and backing industrial music, but most of my recording is single person, songwriter at the board stuff. Most of it is MIDI-based, with electric guitars / bass going straight into the console, and vocal / acoustic guitar recording in the control room. I'm not looking to (nor can I afford) spend any real money on this space. I AM fortunate to have 6 pieces of Auralex Maxwall panels, one of which is a window panel, and some sheets of plywood if necessary. What I AM looking to do is get the recording area of this loft in sonically-stable shape. OK - the main room is 40' x 24', with a ceiling of 24'. Floors are linoneum. The vast majority of this room has tin walls (First 4 feet is wooden wainscoting - tin from 4' straight up to, and including, the ceiling. WITHIN this room is a sleeping loft, the underside of which is 12' wide, 9' deep and 7' high. This is where the studio is located. The sleeping loft itself is essentially on stilts, with X-cross-members on the back and sides. The front has a single leg coming straight down the center. The back is up against one of the tin walls. The "ceiling", which is actually the floor of the "bedroom" above, is 1/2" ply, with 1/8" ply on top of that, with a sisal carpet lining the top of the whole thing, and a full-time futon mattress on top of that. (There ARE multiple 2 x 4 cross beams underneath, with a center 4x4 beam.) The sides of the sleeping loft are essentially open. I've got a couple of keyboards hung on one side, and a pic or two on the other. I'm using an analog console (an old, warm Yamaha 2404 - certainly not the quietest, but easily as good if not better than your average Behringer / Mackie, if only for the warmth itself - no flames please) - with a newly acquired trio of MOTU 1224's into a G3 450. Monitoring is done through a VERY old and treasured Kenwood amp, hooked to 3 sets of speakers - more about them later. (Not that it matters, but for the record, I've got a Blue Ball and a Sennheiser MD 421 II mic.) My recording spaces have always developed organically - I've got a good sense of placement for equipment / speakers, etc., and the spaces have always served me. However, this one's got me a bit stumped. For starters, I hung a shelf at about 4 feet at the back of the sleeping loft, and placed the monitors on it. Put the console between them at an appropriate distance. Sat down in front of it, fired it all up, and BANG - no lows. Regardless of which speakers. If I stood UP, BANG - bass is back. Now I have to confess that I don't know jack about standing waves or the like, but my assumption is that there was some kind of cancellation going on in the engineer's spot. So after about a month of playing with various placements, I tried hanging one of the speaker pairs up by the ceiling and BANG AGAIN - bass is back. I've only had it like this for a couple of days, so I'm still living with it (hence the temporary placement of everything in the pics, but especially the speakers). But in the meantime - I'd be interested in any comments, along the lines of: Should I plywood in the side walls or leave them open? What about the back wall - any issue there? Insulate the ceiling at all? Carpet? The opposing wall, behind me when I'm at the board, is 20' away, so having stuff bounce back at me hasn't been an issue. But if you have any comments about that, fire away as well. Here are just a few pics of the space, for your perusal. ANY comments are more than welcome. Empty, before I moved anything in - for reference:
External image, not preserved — original: http://www.markmarshall.com/studio/s4.jpg
External image, not preserved — original: http://www.markmarshall.com/studio/s1.jpg
External image, not preserved — original: http://www.markmarshall.com/studio/s2.jpg
External image, not preserved — original: http://www.markmarshall.com/studio/s3.jpg
The room is big enough you shouldn't box yourself in any more than already is there; acoustic absorption in the form of rockwool batts on the ceiling of the "cave" should help tame early reflections and clear up imaging. Your bass came back because you moved your speakers from a likely null point halfway between ceiling (of your space under the loft) and floor, to a corner loaded spot. I'd change the ceiling above you (search here on "cloud") and put some spacers on the shelf so you can set your speakers centered at around 62% of your distance from floor to underside of the loft, and see what that does; having them that high will fool you on higher frequencies, unless you're leaning back enough to look straight at them... Oh, and please update your profile with at least a COUNTRY in the location field; Thanks... Steve
Thanks for the reply! (I updated my profile.) Thanks also for the suggestions - I understand about the speakers, and will play with the height as per your post. I did a search for cloud, but I got about a million hits - some of which were helpful, but none that absolutely nailed it. So, if I might - another question: I saw this thread: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ight=cloud The diagram that John posted had both the solid timber and the cloud at 12 degree opposites. Is this standard, or room-specific? Also - how wide should the cloud be? Thanks again for the reply. Best, Mark
That "fix" was for a perfect CUBE, to try and correct some of the DRASTIC modal problems they cause. Your case isn't CLOSE to that desperate... For your space, 2 or 3" 3 PCF fiberglass or rockwool spaced a couple inches off the ceiling will be all you need. This should be at least the width of your speaker placement, and at least 3 feet front to back, centered on the ceiling halfway between speakers and your head. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... c&start=75 http://www.recording.org/ftopict-26889.html Couple of idea threads... Steve
Altered Beats wrote:
????? Why are you not using the whole space? Seems insane the room looks amazing!
Thanks! Well... I have to live here as well. And because I don't own it (renting), I can't do extensive construction (which I'd need - most of the walls are tin - it's one big Reverb unit. Even as we speak, my keystrokes are coming back at me form across the room.) The smaller space is actually more controllable, audio-wise, and because it's a project studio - I don't need 1300 square feet to do it. Take a look:
Image not preserved: wholeview.jpg
knightfly wrote:
That "fix" was for a perfect CUBE, to try and correct some of the DRASTIC modal problems they cause. Your case isn't CLOSE to that desperate... For your space, 2 or 3" 3 PCF fiberglass or rockwool spaced a couple inches off the ceiling will be all you need. This should be at least the width of your speaker placement, and at least 3 feet front to back, centered on the ceiling halfway between speakers and your head. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... c&start=75 http://www.recording.org/ftopict-26889.html Couple of idea threads... Steve
Hey Steve- Thanks for the other threads - VERY helpful. Thanks also for the advice - the ceiling is going up today, and the cloud probably tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes! M.
OK - here it is. I'll post more in detail later, but I had to post at least one pic. The room sounds wonderful. Thanks Knightfly - your advice was invaluable.
Image not preserved: newceiling!!!.jpg
Wow, musta missed this - glad you're happy; I used to troubleshoot Video and audio gear over the phone, but up until the last year or so I never thought it could be done with acoustics... 8) ('course, the pix save about 6,285,937 words on average... :wink:
knightfly wrote:
Wow, musta missed this - glad you're happy; I used to troubleshoot Video and audio gear over the phone, but up until the last year or so I never thought it could be done with acoustics... 8) ('course, the pix save about 6,285,937 words on average... :wink:
....fast forward one year and two months.... HEY! Pics - yep. In the meantime, I got ahold of a Yamaha RM-800 console, which KICKS BUTT. VERY VERY quiet, and lots of channels. Filled out the room very nicely, and I finished an ALBUM in there!!!! http://www.markmarshall.com/hear.html Thanks to everybody for your help. Warmest Regards, Mark http://www.markmarshall.com/images/mmbanner.gif
Mark, nice website and cool sounds, thanks for sharing. Glad we could help, I can imagine from early pix how your space could have sounded before... Steve