How can I tweak what I've got? Baffled.

I am trying to improve the layout and acoustics of a little basement studio in my home in Chicago. The room is below grade, carpeted wall to wall, and pretty solid-feeling due to the fact that two walls are heavy exterior foundation. The building itself is brick. With few exceptions, the recording setup is just me sitting in a chair with an acoustic guitar and two or three mikes in front of me. Most of what I do is solo fingerstyle guitar, which I usually mike with a pair of small-diaphragm condensors (Oktava MK-012s) and/or a single large-diaphragm condensor (ADK A51TC). One of my guitars is a jumbo Goodall with a big throaty sound and powerful bass response. Now that I have invested in a good preamp and some really nice mikes, I am concerned to get the best acoustics out of my room that I can. I have tried lots of mike placements etc. but the result is too often brittle sounding and lacking in depth. I also get a low-grade hiss which I suspect might be stray high-freq activity bouncing around the room. There is no issue with keeping my sound in; I'm quiet and the neighbors are out of range. It's all about keeping outside sounds out and improving the acoustic behavior of the space. My budget is flexible but I would like to see how close I can get to a professional sound for < $1,000. Got the gear, now need the right space. Here's the current setup such as it is: Particular acoustic challenges I am aware of include: 1. The usual issues of hard walls reflecting sound artifacts back and forth, standing waves, faint high-freq hiss, etc. - it's a small room so this is all pretty evident. 2. Two windows, one of them a glass block affair opening onto a gangway (not a real acoustic issue), the other a small window that opens just below ground level onto a sidewalk, next to which is a street, next to which is an embankment for some train tracks. Uh-huh, I said train tracks. Great thing to have outside your studio window! Fortunately the trains are not frequent and I know the schedule, so rather than try and soundproof them out of the picture I just wait for them to pass and go on with my business. There is, however, random people and traffic noise coming through that window at unpredictable moments. 3. A large overhead HVAC duct enclosed in a dropped portion of the ceiling. There are two overhead vents set into the duct. As with the train, my approach has been to just turn the heat or AC off rather than try and "correct" this sound source. 4. A double door that opens into a den area. This door is not sound insulated, but on the other hand no one is usually downstairs when I am recording, so the noise bleed is not that great. I do keep my recording PC outside the room with a Firewire cable connection to the gear inside the room, so there is no computer noise issue. 5. Low ceiling.... So I guess the main thing I am concerned about is sweetening the tone of the guitar by correcting standing waves and unwanted reflections. I would also like to nail that high-freq hiss. Some additional localized soundproofing would be good too, but short of building an iso booth I'm not sure how much I gain from that (apart from the obvious move of blocking the windows). WHAT I'VE DONE SO FAR: I've built two portable baffles in the shape of 4' high hinged panels covered in Auralex; picture a shoji-screen affair with two 2' x 4' panels hinged together. These help with reflections for sure. One question I have is where to optimally position them and whether I need to supplement this with some more permanent treatment of the room corners etc. I have no bass traps per se. My specific questions: 1. Where should I position myself, my mikes and my gear given the configuration of this room? 2. Where should I ideally position my two baffled "shojis?" My original idea was one in front of me, some distance behind the mike array, and one immediately behind my back to catch any stray reflections not killed by the front baffle. But I am unclear on how far in front of me the one trap should be in order to allow optimal breathing room around my cardioid mikes. 3. Do I need to install bass traps in the corners or elsewhere, or would correct placement of the baffle screens neutralize bass issues? 4. Is 4' high enough for the traps to cover me if I am in a sitting position? 5. Anything I need to do about that ceiling? 6. Any thoughts on where that hiss is coming from? It isn't my gear, I am pretty convinced. I think it's the room. Many, many thanks in advance for whatever guidance you all can lend.

is that desk permanent? cause you should set it up so your studio is deeper than it is wider. (put the doors behind you)

Actually, I do have a long desk under the glass brick window, but I omitted it from the diagram. It was no doubt my amateur drawing that led you believe I'd included one :oops: I can put it anywhere...right now there's also a futon couch under the streetside window, but as with the desk that can go anywhere including in another room. Good suggestion about following the long dimension of the room--thanks!

Aloha, Depending on your preference of the "guitar sound" that you're after, would something like this be a viable option? I've recently built a couple of the side wall absorbers and the difference they make is amazing. They attenuate the low-mid freqs while keeping a nice amount of high end sparkle, and really cleaned up a lot of mush in the mix position. I am planning a cloud absorber and rear absorbers as soon as I can afford them. If you care to check out the thread, you can find it here: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... ght=#15598 and here: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4091 Wall units: http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm Hope these help, Aloha 8)

Kendale - Wow! Thanks for taking so much time to update my drawing. That is so generous. Very interesting suggestion you make, and I think I can quickly do a little proof of concept using my shoji-style baffles as the side absorbers and a mattress or something provisional as the rear absorber. If it makes a dramatic difference, I'll just build a third shoji for the rear baffle. Shouldn't be hard to test it out in the actual room and see what I get. I shall report back! Cheers, and give James Goodall my kind regards if you happen to see him down there...I am his biggest fan.

Aloha Edward,

Thanks for taking so much time to update my drawing.

It's really nothing more than following a few of the principles on this forum and then cutting & pasting a times, but you're welcome!

Very interesting suggestion you make, and I think I can quickly do a little proof of concept using my shoji-style baffles as the side absorbers and a mattress or something provisional as the rear absorber. If it makes a dramatic difference, I'll just build a third shoji for the rear baffle.

Just curious as to how you've constructed your "shoji-style baffles." Got any pics? :D

Shouldn't be hard to test it out in the actual room and see what I get. I shall report back!

Looking forward to your test results (and pics!)

give James Goodall my kind regards if you happen to see him down there...I am his biggest fan.

It's been a few years since I've stopped by, but if I'm in the neighborhood I'll give him your regards.

Most of what I do is solo fingerstyle guitar,

Like you, most of what I do is fingerstyle as well. (My weapon of choice is a Collings OM2 :wink: ) Got any clips you'd like to share? It may be helpful to hear just what the "hiss" you mentioned sounds like, whether its the room or electronically generated. I've found that even with good mics, cables, and preamps, sometimes I get a little hiss happening if the gain is too high/low somewhere along the way. Aloha 8)

Sure, I'll take a pic of one of the baffles and post it. Just spent a few hours this afternoon fussing around with every mike position known to man and tomorrow will rearrange the room per your suggested layout. That should be very interesting! As for clips - just go to http://www.edwardhamlin.com and click on Listening Room. The most recent piece to illustrate the hiss issue is "Sangamore"--"Horizon Line" also, I think. By contrast, "Paz no campo" and "Crossing Crystal Lake" were recorded dry in a very hard room--knotty pine walls, maple floor with a thin rug, almost no wall coverings. In some ways I like that sound too. You never can tell...almost have to select the room for the song, if you know what I mean. And where can I hear YOUR stuff??? Funnily enough, I was just A/B'ing a Collings against a really nice Goodall in my favorite guitar shop...as well as a $6000 vintage D28. I may be dead from the neck up but I always come back to that Goodall sound. I just can't justify buying a third one! Cheers and thanks again - e

what about somethin like this

Aloha Edward, Nice site! I enjoyed the clips and the reading room offerings. You have been blessed with a gift for writing, whether it be music and/or literature. Best wishes and may you find a publisher for your work soon.

I'll take a pic of one of the baffles and post it.

Mahalo, I'd appreciate that!

Just spent a few hours this afternoon fussing around with every mike position known to man and tomorrow will rearrange the room per your suggested layout. That should be very interesting!

If the sound that you are going after is a bit too bright with the slat absorbers, you could try using a version of the rear absorber on either side of your position, as well as in front and back and a cloud absorber overhead. http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm

As for clips - just go to http://www.edwardhamlin.com and click on Listening Room. The most recent piece to illustrate the hiss issue is "Sangamore"--"Horizon Line" also, I think. By contrast, "Paz no campo" and "Crossing Crystal Lake" were recorded dry in a very hard room--knotty pine walls, maple floor with a thin rug, almost no wall coverings. In some ways I like that sound too. You never can tell...almost have to select the room for the song, if you know what I mean.

Nice recordings! It's a bit hard to make out that hiss you were referring to, though. Perhaps a bit of the top end was lost when shuttling through hyperspace in mp3 format?

And where can I hear YOUR stuff???

If you ever happen by the Hilton Waikoloa Village on the Big Island, be sure to stop by the Boat Landing and say hello. :wink: (I use a Mark Lacey Empire archtop for work) I've worked on a few CD projects in a couple of different genres, but I haven't done anything work specifically as a fingerstyle solo CD...yet. I'm a bit of a hacker, but it's an interesting thought, though. :D

Funnily enough, I was just A/B'ing a Collings against a really nice Goodall in my favorite guitar shop...as well as a $6000 vintage D28. I may be dead from the neck up but I always come back to that Goodall sound. I just can't justify buying a third one!

I had the privilege of being allowed to demo a top of the line Martin OM 45, but went with the Collings anyway. (You might want to check out the series by Bruce and Matt Petros.) Having gone through several dozen different guitars (like most have) I've found that if the instrument sounds good to your ears, speaks to you, and causes you to respond in a creative way, then it's a good one for you. (By the way, really nice drawing Doni!) Aloha 8)

thanks kendale

First, thanks to all for the very helpful input! And thanks for the compliments on my humble musical (and literary) output. I am finally managing to rearrange my work life to make more space for creative endeavors long deferred, with music being #1. Good feeling. So -- Google has now brought me up to date on slot resonators and they sound a little daunting to construct. Despite my little foray into the shoji baffles I am no carpenter. I guess my question would be: given that all I ever do is solo acoustic guitar, would angling in the walls with auralex and creating a cloud get me most of the way there? I do take the point that I need to eliminate right angles...but do I need more than basic bass traps for solo acoustic guitar? My big guitar is boomy, but on the scale of an acoustic guitar, not a piano or electric bass. I just don't know what's overkill. This being said, in learning about slot resonators I stumbled over John's photos of his Left Bank Studios project, and oh my God, it's so beautiful it makes me want those nice wooden slats everywhere! What a work of art that studio is. John's rep is well deserved. I might tackle this in stages and see where I hit the point of diminishing returns. Tacking up more auralex on the walls and ceiling is pretty easy, so maybe I will do that first and see how far it takes me. But please tell me that's nuts and shortsighted if it is. Thanks again!

Aloha Ed,

Google has now brought me up to date on slot resonators

Here's a good site to visit as well: http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html Be sure to check out the left hand margin topics, especially the "acoustics" and "absorbers" tabs for more good info. (Also, be sure to check out the tabs at the top of these pages when they pull up.)

they sound a little daunting to construct. Despite my little foray into the shoji baffles I am no carpenter.

Neither am I. :wink: Yet, I was able to build 90% of the side absorbers with only a miter saw and a power screwdriver. I used a tablesaw only for the cutting the back panels to size. This was the first time I have ever built anything like this. Being a fellow guitar player, I would be remiss if I did not mention the obvious...be very aware of where your fingers are at all times.

- I guess my question would be: given that all I ever do is solo acoustic guitar, would angling in the walls with auralex and creating a cloud get me most of the way there? - I do take the point that I need to eliminate right angles...but do I need more than basic bass traps for solo acoustic guitar? My big guitar is boomy, but on the scale of an acoustic guitar, not a piano or electric bass. - Tacking up more auralex on the walls and ceiling is pretty easy, so maybe I will do that first and see how far it takes me. But please tell me that's nuts and shortsighted if it is.

From the SAE website (Acoustics/Absorption page):

For an instrument to sound good you must hear a balance of its high and low frequencies. If your room is too dead in the high frequencies the instrument sounds lifeless and tubby, whereas if it's too live in the high frequencies the instrument sounds distant and has no presence. To balance a room you must have a true balance of the high frequencies and the low frequencies with the right amount of deadness to liveness.

and:

the major problem experienced by studios who treat their rooms by putting drapes, carpet or egg cartons on the walls. Basically they are lowering the reflections (reverberation time) of the room BUT ONLY MARGINALLY IN THE HIGH FREQUENCY RANGE! The lows are still humming around the room and the resultant reverberation field creates what we call a muddy - woofy sound. The solution is always to add highs to the recorded signal to return the top end yet really what needs to happen is the low end (100 - 1000Hz) reverberation time needs to be lowered in the recording room and probably in the control room for you to even hear the difference.

I might tackle this in stages and see where I hit the point of diminishing returns.

Since I am treating my room in stages, I am discovering that with each new addition, the room sound is getting better and better. (Currently there is a combination front absorber/corner traps/soffit mount wall and three side absorber units in place. A ceiling cloud over the mix position is next, to be followed by four 4' x 8" x 4' rear absorbers that I can use as gobos when tracking.)

My budget is flexible but I would like to see how close I can get to a professional sound for < $1,000. Got the gear, now need the right space.

So far, I am roughly $1800 into the project. (Your milage may vary depending on material costs in your area. It's a bit pricey out here.) Looking forward to your pics and progress. :D Aloha 8)

Again, Kendale, thanks for all this. I do think I'll follow your basic suggestion and first reorient the playing position 90 degrees, then treat the corners under the street window, then do a cloud, keeping my shoji baffles as movable elements in the picture. Will be interesting to try different positions for them, but the obvious first step is to put one in front and one behind me. That alone, plus treating the corners, might make a noticeable difference. Step by step...hopefully will have a chance to work on it tomorrow some.

Just finished my first real recording effort since reconfiguring my room and doing some modest acoustic treatments. The difference is staggering. Here's the clip: "One More Surrender" http://www.edwardhamlin.com/eh_music.html All I've done so far is put an arc of the Auralex shoji screens in front and behind me, close off a pesky window with bags of highway salt (MASS...), and reorient my playing position to avoid any corner effects. Still plan to hang a cloud above, but not yet. There's a thread on another board with in-depth pix on what I wound up doing: http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=186586 Thanks to all for helpful input, and to John for offering this forum. It was just invaluable in making the incremental decisions needed to take an acoustic step forward!

Aloha Ed, That sounds real nice! I hear what you mean about it sounding like "your guitar." Aloha 8)

kendale wrote:

Aloha Ed, That sounds real nice! I hear what you mean about it sounding like "your guitar." Aloha 8)

Yeah, next time you bump into Mr Goodall down there tell him that another guitar player has gotten close to capturing his artistry in a recording. This is the first one I've done that I really think does my koa jumbo justice.

Aloha Ed, James says hello. :wink: I went down to Kona today to help a friend get his new automotive shop ready for opening and my friend says; "Hey, there's this guitar builder next door you might want to go over and check out." Sure enough, it was James and he was in on a Saturday which he said is most unusual. I told him about you and your new recording and how much you are enjoying your guitars. I also emailed him your website. So as we chatted a bit about things, he gets out this Koa jumbo with a cedar top for me to look at...and we ended up having an impromptu jam session for 25 minutes or so. Pretty cool. 8) Just thought you'd like to know. Aloha 8)

James says hello. Wink I went down to Kona today to help a friend get his new automotive shop ready for opening and my friends says; "Hey, there's this guitar builder next door you might want to go over and check out." Sure enough, it was James and he was in on a Saturday which he said is most unusual. I told him about you and your new recording and how much you are enjoying your guitars. I also emailed him your website. So as we chatted a bit about things, he gets out this Koa jumbo with a cedar top for me to look at...and we ended up having an impromptu jam session for 25 minutes or so. Pretty cool. Cool Just thought you'd like to know.

You're killin' me. Just killin' me. How's he play? What's he play? All that and Kona coffee too. Jeez.

Aloha Ed, I thought you might like that :wink: Believe it or not, James plays an AMAZING flute (as well as several other instruments!) Apparently he has a special interest in classical & baroque music. Very cool, very elegant, very much like the guitars he builds.. By the way, Kona Peaberry, medium roast is my favorite, with its light, sunny flavor. Mmm, ahhh! Aloha 8)

I had heard he played the flute, actually. Guess there must have come a time when he was just saturated with guitars....gee, I could dig that for awhile...not a problem...especially if they were Goodalls... ;)

Well, kendale, to round out that little sidebar about James Goodall, I just received the nicest note from him, thanks to your visit. It seems he doesn't find my stuff a total abomination and insult to his instruments, which is a relief. What a nice man. Thanks for dropping my website on him!

Aloha Edward, Believe me, it was my pleasure :wink: Aloha 8)