Need some window help on a single wall

Ok, Ive been reading alot of great info on this site and want to give a some of this construction thing a try by installing a window between my control room and tracking room. Most of the information I have read here is for double walls and I would like some clarification on how I would do this correctly for a single wall. Hope I dont sound too nooby for everyone. Let me just mention that I love this site so far, so much great information. I have attached a JPEG of my rooms, hope it posts well as this is my first post. Actually I posted this on the end of another thread, but thought that reposting on my own would give me more responses. First my rooms. These are two spare bedrooms in my home with 8' ceilings. I have been using them to record but it is such a problem to not be able to see through the wall between the control room and tracking room. My friends feel isolated and lost. I need a window. I have read plenty here and other sites about double pane studio windows and want to give it a try even though I do not have the soundproofing that most have with double walls, nor do I have great dimensions or size or angles of the rooms. should I just give up this crazy idea of having a studio in these rooms? I do at least have some acoustical treatment in the rooms, although I have taken down my first try of placement(basically I thought I could cover 2 walls completly with DST 114's from aurlex and add come aurlex bass traps and have a great sounding room). Boy was I wrong and now have taken my poor placement from the walls and plan to address my acoustic problems with either some DIY bass traps or possibly some from real traps in combination with these mostly high frequency absorbers. this is another discussion, but wanted to give background so I dont get slammed or kicked off by nightfly. :) Questions: Do I need double pane glass even though I only have a single wall? My plan has been to put two panes of 1/4 glass as shown here and other sites except that i will not have 2 walls with a nice airspace between, I only will have a small airspace between the two panes of glass. I do realize that two 1/4 panes(different thicknesses are better from what I have read) and a single wall are not exactly ideal, but I need to see through this wall if I ever plan to keep recording in these rooms. I was thinking of using 1x6s of fine grade pine or poplar that would actually house the glass, but build a header and footer of 2 2x6s with 1/2 in drywall between that would connect to the studs of the wall. wish I had pics, but I hope I am being clear. My thinking here is that althought the 1x6s would not be flush against my existing drywall, the actual panes of glass would be close to the existing drywall if I use a 3 in space in between panes, and I may even add another layer of drywall to the existing to try to attenuate the noise between rooms even if it is just a little. Any benefit in adding the extra layer of drywall on both sides of this single wall? I must also say that I have my cables running through a small hole so that I dont have to run cables out the door, but again I understand that this will compromise the small amount of isolation I have between the band and myself. this does make it difficult to hear the sound through my monitors as it truely sounds, because of the lack of isolation. At least my computers are out of the way and I can record vocals in the control room. Does anyone have a better idea for running cables between rooms for this single wall? I spoke with a friend about possibly doing this and he tried to tell me how difficult this will be to do, mainly being able to calculate my starting point to be sure I will end up with the proper opening for the glass, and that it will be very difficult to keep the inner frame exactly square and level for my glass to not only look right, but for it to even fit in my opening. Is this as difficult as he is saying it is? I plan to use the 1/4 glass because I can get one 8x3 or 7x3 piece and cut it in half for much cheaper than I can get two different thicknesses of 4x3 or 3 1/2x3 glass. budget is always a concern. this is a small opening but again, I have small rooms. are the two panes of 1/4 laminated glass doomed to resonate so much that my mics will notice? anyone know the difference oak, poplar and pine will give me in performance? I already know the price differences. I am sure I have more questions but will take a listen to what you guys have to say. Thanks for having this forum available for all of us, greatly appreciated

I am a little disappointed for not getting a reply in some form by now. Is my project too small or so off-base that no one cares to comment? I did finally find a good answer on running the cables between walls and have read enough on this site to get a pretty good idea of what I want to do, but this post was to try to see if I am applying these concepts to my current situation correctly. especially about using 1x6's that will not finish flush to the existing drywall, but much closer if I decide to add another layer. And yes I have seen the STC figures on wall construction and was blown away to find you can get more out of a wall with less material on a double wall, but want hear what you guys have to say about 1. the benefit of this double pane window on a single wall(if any) 2. Ive read that using one thickness of glass will resonate more than if I use 2 different thicknesses, but how bad will it be? 3. will adding an extra layer of drywall to both sides be worth the effort if it is only added to the wall between these two rooms? I respect what you guys are doing here and have tough skin if you want to lay out the bad news for me. I know I dont have the best situation here but look at this as a learning experience for possible future construction where I actually have room to perform some of the more elaborate construction techniques described here.

Aloha, Hang in there. Sometimes the guys get hung up at work/life/other responsibilities. Aloha 8)

yeah, I get that people are busy as am I, but I am in the first stages of build now and was hoping to get a little advise before I get too far. hopefully I wont be tearing anything down. no worries, it will be sweet either way just to get the visual contact.

Ok, I'll take a shot at a reply: Don't use two panes of glass if you only have a single wall. You would be better served with one pane of much thicker glass. You didn't mention the size of the window (at least I can't find it), but if it's somewhere around 3x5', you can expect to pay about $160-$200 per piece of 1/4" laminated glass. What you might consider instead is a "web cam" aproach with a camera and monitor in each room (you can use one cheap computer and split the screens to save a little money). It might cost a few bucks more but you won't break the isolation you're getting from that wall right now. len

yeah, I thought about the webcam idea but figured for around the same money I could actually have a window that would function better and also look a little more "pro". I saw some step by step instruction on aurlex with pictures that gave me the idea that I could do this. It looks like it is a double pane window on a single interior wall, check it out. http://www.auralex.com/tips/tips.asp?Tip=5 I do realize that this will not be a great wall in terms of isolation, but the wall I began with wasnt so great either. The size of glass will probably be 4x3, and yes it was expensive. this is why I was thinking 1/4" laminated for both sides because for one thing I could not find any glass shop that sold anything but 1/4", and because I can get both panes of glass for 200 bucks by buying an 8x3 stock piece and cutting it in half. the glass is 160 and 35 bucks to cut. but everywhere says to get 2 thicknesses of glass, and am wondering if I should really pay attention to that. the way I was thinking is that everyone is also building much beefier walls with high STC and that my wall will not be that great in that department anyway. since I can't find anything but 1/4", I guess I will have to live with that. maybe can point me to somewhere in the dallas area that has some options. I was also thinking that I could find some plate glass of a different thickness, but that on the control room side and use the laminate for the live room side. This would at least give me two thicknesses. anyone care to help out? I do want some input on if I should go through the expense of adding another layer of drywall and insulation. I have the wall opened up and will be adding insulation today, and probably building the roughed in frame for the window. I will not order glass until I have the finished frame.

If you think about it, WHY would you want two panes of glass in the first place? The answer is to decouple the sound from one side of one wall to the other. If you only have one wall, I don't think you're going to have anything to decouple. If you create a sound that vibrates the first pane, that vibration is going to "shake" the frame more than the air between the two panes, and the frame is the same one in your case. From your pictures, it looks like you could build a wall between the two rooms without too much trouble. If the ceiling joists run left and right in the pictures, you could even cut the current ceiling in between the two walls so you'd almost have a double wall construct and the ceiling and walls wouldn't couple to each other. It wouldn't cost that much in floor space. len

Believe that I have thought about building a double wall quite a bit. It wouldnt be much more trouble or materials to go ahead and add the wall when I am going as far as I am with the window. But I figured that a double wall construct between these 2 rooms would be a waste of time because it wouldnt be double wall construction all the way around the loud source. I figured that my doors wouldnt be able to keep up. Also the main reason is that I do not plan to live in this house for life, and will have to return the wall to original construction when I do sell. this would be much more difficult after building another wall than to take out my window and drywall over. If I was going to go that far I would build a room within a room, but space is already an issue. I didnt figure it was worth it because I would also want to angle the walls and would end up with a tiny, acoustically correct, soundproof room that I could barely fit a drumsset in. haha. I have had a window plug in before and record in the room with little problems with outside noise except when my neighbors want to light me up with the car stereo. not a perfect situation, but not as bad as without the plug, I do mostly rock music, and vocals tend to be later in the day, etc., so I have to live with some problems here. I am just looking to to improve this wall without too great an impact on the overall construction, that will at least give me a wall as good as what I had before, but can imagine that if I do it right I will end up with a better wall in between rooms after adding the insulation, the extra drywall and enough glass to keep up with the walls. while I am asking, if I add a layer of 5/8 rock to my walls all the way around in the liveroom, ceiling included, could I make a plug that would keep up with those walls so I can still open the window? I have to be able to get fresh air in there, I was previously unhappy with the plug I built before because I couldnt air out the room easily. It gets kinda funky sometimes in there especially after I cram 4 guys in a small room that want to sound like rockstars. but what you are saying about the single pane would make sense, this is why I am on this site asking. I dont see alot of construction doing exactly what I am doing. Most of it is for double walls and for double windows. the aurlex site looks like a single wall, but I could be wrong. so what would you suggest? a thicker single pane of glass or the 1/4"? a manuafactured window in a frame? The project so far is going well, I have cut the middle studs, placed the header and bottom jam between the outside studs approximately six feet apart, a little over 3 feet highthat can be adjusted in height if need be. So I still have get some options at this point and know I shouldnt rush something like this but am in a bit of a time crunch with new equipment coming in that I need to evaluate within the 30 day return policy. by the way, I thought I had posted this as a comment on the pic, but the 5 in wall is really 4 1/2 in. 2X4 construction with 1/2 in drywall each side. I am sure the other dimensions are not really exact either, but actually drew that up a year ago before I was so interested in additional construction.

I finally found a couple of companies that sell 1/2", 3/8", 1/4", and 3/16". a couple who said they could make anything I wanted. very pricy for anything over 1/4, but its nice to know that it is out there. Still no one has come close to beating the value offered by Smith Glass in garland. This guy was very honest and helpful in suggestions for the panes, so anyone who needs 1/4 laminate in the dallas area should give them a call, epecially if you need multiple pieces of glass. I also found someone who could sell me a single pane of 1/2" laminate framed in aluminum or vinyl for about the same money as the 2 1/4" glass and wood framing would cost me. I wonder which framing would give the best results for my situation, and if this would be a good way to go over the 2 1/4" pieces or single piece of 1/2". I am also looking at pre-made soundproof windows, anyone have a good link? thanks len for your replies so far and waking me up to options.

You think your glass guy would ship it to West Texas? The only thing I can find here (within 80 miles or so) is 1/4" laminate. I've got two windows (4 panes) and I'd love to have 3/8" for two of them so all 4 wouldn't be the same thickness. If you're only going to have one pane of glass, you'd probably be best served by 1/2" laminate rather than two 1/4". You were right about the Auralux site and it being two panes in a single wall. You might give them a call (I think Jeff is the guy you want to talk to). He is on studiotips.com a lot so you might catch him there and ask about the pictures. Since sound is their business, they should be able to give you few more details. By the way, I'd be happy if your glass guy could get me 1/2" thick for windows in my vocal booth (maybe 18" square). That shouldn't be too difficult to ship. len

I dunno about shipping the glass pieces to west texas, but will get the numbers(I left them at work) and post them tomorrow. Pricy stuff though, and I can imagine outrageous to ship. the value guy is only for the 1/4 laminated, and it is really only a value if you buy a big stock piece and have them cut it for you. sorry I didnt get that comment about 1/2" over 2-1/4". I figure that one 1/2 is better than one 1/4 but is one 1/2" better than a 2-1/4" with an airspace?

On the single frame, double glass - the Auralex link is the better way. If you stop and think about it, a single layer of 5/8 gypsum has approx. STC 28 - adding a second layer, on single frame without RC, changes it to STC 42, assuming 4" air gap. The TL at 50 hZ goes up from 15 to 22 dB with the second leaf. This is on the SAME frame. The laminated glass is better damped than plate, so will behave better at resonance. The 1/4" thickness of glass will give about the same performance as 3/4" gypsum, probably slightly better - so two leaves of this glass on the same frame, 4" apart, would come in at around STC40 to 42, with low end at around 24 dB or so. A single pane of 1/4 glass would be about STC 27 considering less damping than gypsum. HTH... Steve

thanks for putting my worries to ease. and thanks for moderating. I think that this window will definately keep up with my walls, although not as great a window as it could be. I would love to apply the techniques in this forum for a larger project someday. I will be back to confirm my plans for my window plug, but need to finish up this wall. I will post some pics of my progress. a couple more questions where can I obtain acoustical caulk in the dallas area or the HD equivalent How well would PVC pipe work for running cables if the holes are not in different bays on the stud wall? If I seal them as described and offset the holes as much as possible within 2 ft, can I leave them in the same bay? I still have yet to get to the store to see if I can use 2" with my 8 channel XLR snake with additional XLR capacity after I run the snake, but if I have to use 3" I could only angle a single piece within a bay, or trim the couple studs that join three bays to accomodate a single piece at an angle. The long bends decribed here wouldnt work for a 3" piece in my wall because the connections for the bends I would need are thicker than the airspace. I would like some advise if that is all necessary or even benefitial for my particular wall. I wish I could find the 2 1/2", becuase I am pretty sure I could squeeze the snake through and once I have cleared the connections I could till have room for a couple few more XLRs. I still have a few more questions about adding a second layer of possibly 5/8" drywall on the walls and ceiling of the live room, possibly the same thickness on the other side of the wall between rooms. any advise hear for my particular situation? The info is great hear and gives great direction, but would like a little clarification on my particular situation. thank you for your comments.

I don't think I would use PVC pipe at all for such a short distance. It conducts sound pretty well and you'd have a "hard" connection between the two rooms (the PVC itself). I think you'd be better off just pushing the snake through, leave a pull string if you want to add something later. Better yet, buy some snake cable and install it now - you don't have to wire it, just have it in place. For what you'd spend in time and money putting in the PVC, you'd pay for a pretty good length of bulk snake cable. len