Take a look/ my basement project studio design

Hi folks, Thanx for the smartdraw tip John :D I know there are no soffits and it's psuedo LEDE. Great Forum. I haven't built the slots or bass panel traps yet. Curiously I've seen no mention of Malcolm Chisholm's polycylindrical diffusers (bass absorbers) Best, Mack

wow - I need a few answers first off. 1 - could you please explain the studio floor in more detail - as it is it sounds like you'd be tripping over 1/2" panels constantly. :) 2 - what is the jute treatment. 3 - I can't read what the front treatment is in the control room 4 - have you built this?? I think Malcolm is the guy with the studio designs on the web - has been around for ages? they look like standard curved bass traps like Ethans but with a curved front?? cheers john

Hi John, Thanks for the response. First off, let me say that this is an admittedly compromised DIY design -- working within the limiting constraints of my low ceiling basement. I am 90% complete, and I hope to be recording by November. If things progress nicely over the years I may retrofit an existing 35'x25' barn on my property in the future. At that point I would look forward to your services for a ground up studio design -- I would probably do an additional control room/lobby/bath space added on to the large live room barn space. That said, I'd love to bounce off what I have been doing and have learned from the late Malcolm Chisholm concerning my existing basement facility with this forum. My console is a Trident 80C, and my recorder is a radar 24 nyquist. Malcolm Chisholm was nice enough to help me with the design while he was alive (he died several months ago). He was an awesome man, as well as an excellent engineer and teacher that retrofitted dozens of studios in the Chicago area. His many credits included Howlin Wolf/Ricky Nelson/Ella Fitzgerald and other Chess Record recording artists too numerous to mention. About my basement: The wall between the control room and studio room already existed, where the former owner poured a concrete slab. All walls are Georgia brick. What is now the studio space was originally dirt, under my 1910 farmhouse. I took another foot of dirt out of the studio side (which gave me about 7' to the bottom of the upstairs floor/6.5 feet to the joists). I had the dirt floor concreted in after doing a perimeter drain to sump system. This was necessary for the house in general and made for a nice dry basement for my studio and household storage( with de-humidifier to the sump as well). John Sayers wrote: "wow - I need a few answers first off. " First off Malcolm did the Sabins calculations for me. With his design/recording philosophy, the goal was to get 26db fall off at 10' for the ability to track vocals in the same room as the rhythm section! -- Using 4 Polycylindrical diffusers, a full foot of R19 in the joists covered with panels made from Burlap & hardware cloth, about 14 6"703 panels mounted on the walls, a floated floor, & two sets of gobos made from 2x4's stuffed with R19 (Drum gobo back is 5' tall x 8' wide, sides: 4'tall x 5'wide/ Vocal gobo 6'tallx 5'wide back, sides: 5'6" tall x 4'wide). With the goal to track vocals in the same room as the band, I know that bands didn't play as loud in Malcolms' day. But who knows maybe I can convince a few to use smaller amps anyway..yuck yuck! The vocalist can the theoretically track behind the drummer, instrument amps on chairs on each side of the drum gobo; all players facing the "live" control room wall, studio monitors as necessary for foldback with no headphones. Malcolm claimed that countless records were made this way. The design therefore purposely included no small iso booths. Malcolm inspired me not only by his credits, but by telling me that "Live rooms are for Records, Overdubs are for Demos." Now I know this stuff is not written in stone, and many great recordings have been over-dubbed, but I thought it would make for an interesting and inexpensive experiment nonetheless, because Live, "let it bleed" recordings fascinate me. John Sayers wrote: "1 - could you please explain the studio floor in more detail - as it is it sounds like you'd be tripping over 1/2" panels constantly." The floor is "floated" using a cheap and interesting solution of Malcolm's. Over the concrete is one layer of poly house sheathing (you see this stuff on new house construction under the exterior siding). This not only provided a moisture barrier, but gave the subsequent two layers of 1/2" plywood some "give." The next layer was 1/2" plywood was simply caulked to the house sheathing, staggered seams. My innovation for the top layer was aesthetic -- I cut 4x8' sheets of 1/2" plywood into 4x4' squares and stained about half of them. This was to achieve a pleasant diagonal checkerboard look, rather than a dull, uninteresting plain plywood top-floor. These squares were screwed and glued with construction adhesive to the first 1/2" layer. The floor has no attachment to the concrete at all, and is 1/2" from all walls. Floors don’t get up and walk away, right? All alternating squares of plain & stained are therefore flush and things can be rolled around with ease. No polyurethane sealer was used to achieve maximum sabins on the floor. "2 - what is the jute treatment. " The Jute is Burlap. It provides nice fiber control and helps the fiberglass with the top-end sabins. 300yrds cost me a wopping $160. I used it on the entire studio ceiling covering 1' of R19 batts. I used it to cover my wall mounted (and removable) 6" 703 studio wall boxes. I used it to cover the front half of my control room & and corners (behind the console 6-8" of 703) and on the front half of the control room ceiling -- again over R19 in the joists. "3 - I can't read what the front treatment is in the control room" Behind the console a full 6"-8" of 703 almost ceiling to floor completely & 703 angled in the corners as well with R19 behind them covered in Burlap. Monitors on stands. I am thinking of building two more 2x4' 703 panels next to the front corners mounted on the sidewalls, though perhaps some slotted panels instead? Obviously this is making the front half "dead". Having read a little about Non-environment rooms, as well as the use of large limp mass batts, and from Malcolm’s advice, we concluded that a pseudo LEDE design might be best, with perhaps even more treatment on the rear wall as well. I think I have a decent RFZ, and the control room sounds pretty nice so far IMHO. I have not done anything to the rear wall yet. Perhaps I am getting some benefit in the low frequencies because the control room ceiling (6' low!) transmits low freqs to the room above, and the area above the mixers head (front half) is covered in burlap over R19. Malcolm recommended keeping the rear of the control room more "live" using a GRD (RPG tm) over the couch, and haas kickers in the corners angled to the mix position. The rear half of the control room ceiling just over the mixers head is covered with wood (Luan), covering existing insulation done by the previous owner. Having read a little about small rooms providing no true “haas effect" to the rear of the mix position as well as the need for low-freq mode control, I am concerned by too much possible "livelyness" and the need for more low freq absorption on the back wall. The window and studio doors are not in yet, but it sounds good to my ears so far. The couch is there already, as well as the 2 open framed hass kickers that could be made as perhaps Slotted panels. I was thinking of putting an Ethan style bass trap behind the couch on the entire back wall width and height, perhaps built around a QRD over the couch. Though I am aware that the use of QRD's is not always recommended in small control rooms? 4 - have you built this?? I’m about 90% there. I'm finishing the "safe style" doors, and the windows themselves are next. Everything is framed and particle boarded/dry walled. The wall between control room and studio (that house the window and doors) are dissimilar mass. That was the only wall I built, and it is massive, with 16" between walls. Basically I didn’t have the room or desire for non-parallel walls in what was basically a small ceiling basement, and I reasoned that I can build a “real studio” down the road in my barn. Malcolm claimed that as long as you break up the standing waves and get uniform absorption, you can still do good work. We’ll see I guess -- ha ha. I was first and foremost trying to push the envelope of making a true Live Room in my basement where all players track together in the same room. John Sayers wrote: "I think Malcolm is the guy with the studio designs on the web - has been around for ages? they look like standard curved bass traps like Ethan but with a curved front??" His son was nice enough to post his site again here: http://pages.ripco.net/~chisholm/malcol ... /INDEX.HTM The polycylindrical diffusers in the corners are simply bowed masonite into vertical 1" wood channels on each wall, attached with screws. Top and bottom left free to vibrate. That's it! His design also included a plan that mounting them into movable frames if necessary. To date I have heard of no one else that has tried this simple design (not that no one has). Malcolm claimed that they not only collect lows in corners (where they accumulate), but they reflect some nice highs (ambience) back into the room as well. Good for musicians. He claimed they work, but said nobody believes they do. All I know is that after I put them in my bass player said "wow I can hear my low string on my 5-string bass." That said I think I will build some Ethan style traps for the rear studio wall. The studio then is basically set up for a live control room wall that the musicians play to. He mentioned I could build some additional live flats as well if needed in front of the players. That's about it for now. Best, David Mack Blauvelt Marietta, Georgia

Sounds fine what you are doing David. My only concern is the rea wall of your control room. As your speakers are on stands why not check out how they sound when you reverse the control room - i.e. place the speakers on the rear wall and listen the otherway around - you will hear the effect a dead rear wall has.. cheers john

John Sayers wrote: "Sounds fine what you are doing David. My only concern is the rear wall of your control room. As your speakers are on stands why not check out how they sound when you reverse the control room - i.e. place the speakers on the rear wall and listen the otherway around - you will hear the effect a dead rear wall has.. " Good idea John. I think I'll try it when I get/make my stands. Are you subtley suggesting a lively front end? Like Non environment rooms? What treatments would you go for on the rear wall and anywhere else in the control room? Thanx, David Mack Blauvelt

David - IMHO I would build a soffit mount reflective front end with a dead rear end, but wait till you hear the difference ;) cheers john

John, I guess I'll rig up some temp stands and give a listen, it would be silly not to at this point. Do you really think there is room for soffits in this small control room? The exact dimensions are 10'10" wide, 14'8" Front to Back, and 6' High. The console takes up almost the entire width at 9'8" - so I don't think I have room for any more walls. The doors are done, but the window is not. The wall seperating the control room from the main room is 1/2" drywall on two layers of 1"partical board (control room side) seperate studed/uncoupled to the other side which is 5/8" drywall over 5/8" particle board. About 16" exists between the two outer walls. Is a better plan possible keeping the current positions of doors and window? I'm not adverse to ripping out the front end 703. I mentioned that the fronthalf of the control room ceiling is R19 in the joists covered with burlap - would you change that too? Thanx for any tips. I'm curious now what treatments and soffits you would draw in. I still have not committed to better monitors yet, so that's a plus. I've got a Hafler P2400 amp now with some Alesis M1 passives, I was looking at the Truth monitors made in alabama. Best, Dave Blauvelt

Dave - this is how I'd tend to look at it cheers john

Dave - this is how I'd tend to look at it cheers john

Hi John, I did what you suggested and moved the Monitors to the Rear of the control room, listening with my back to the wall with the 6"703 treatment, and I must say that it sounds noticeably better! The first thing I noticed is that I could push the fader to unity without it seeming too loud. Now you got me thinking how far I can push this little room. Do you think a surround setup is out of the question? Would that change the treatments? I'll get to the SAE website to do some more reading, but when I'm ready how do I take the next step with your services? You can e-mail me directly if you like. I've attached an exact measurement drawing, and as you can see I have only 7 inches on each side of the console, which makes for a tight squeeze if I were to angle the interior walls some more. Any creative solutions come to mind? Best, Dave Blauvelt

Pushing it to do surround :):) but you could definitely push it more ;);) cheers john

How do you say it? Kryme mate? I need some specs. I thought as long as I'm tearing stuff apart, I'd push the micro control room envelope and go for surround...ha ha. We semi-pro's want it all don't we John? Well let me know if you have a design epiphany. :lol: Seriously, I notice a minimal amount of surround discussion on this forum – I’m thinking surround for music, not film. :? Best, Dave

Interesting floor design. I'm considering something similar, mainly because my doors open into my garage/future studio, and thus, any flooring has to be lower than the bottom of my doors. But I'm beginning to wonder whether I should bother at all: Over leaving the concrete bare, or perhaps covered with a rug or carpet, what are the advantages of a floor like this? As opposed to building a floor on joists, what is sacrificed by having so little space between the wood and concrete on the floor? I know that with more air space you get some bass trap type effect. Is this effect present at all with just a fraction of an inch? I understand that a concrete floor will sound "boomy," especially if covered with carpet, which only tends to absorb higher frequencies. Can a concrete floor still sound good if there is enough bass absorption in the rest of the room?

Hey ap, Generally, leaving the floor live sounds better and it's easier to roll things around. You can then focus you treatments on the ceiling and walls. I think that floating the floor on house sheathing provides a cheap/low-rise way of de-coupling the floor from the walls; if you make sure that the layers of house sheathing and plywood do not touch the walls. But since you have the ceiling height (i.e. garage) why not build a true isolated floor on pads, and full studio/control room etc? You could isolate the door by building a hall space to another door. Just a thought. The main reason for floating the studio floor like I did was my lack of ceiling height. Best, Dave Blauvelt

Maybe something like this John? :lol: Best, Dave Blauvelt

Here's an update showing the ceiling treatment so far. Any thoughts on the Ceiling? It's only 6' high :( Best, Dave

That's better- for your ceiling just block it out with 703 making it open air. cheers john

Amazing how similar your room looks to my plan. I've got a bigger couch! Why is de-coupling the floor from your walls so important? Just to cut down on sound transfer between rooms? From your description, it seems the two rooms have independent concrete floors and thus shouldn't have much transmission there. Is it because they share the same walls? If sound transfers from the live room to the control room via the walls, it doesn't seem like floating the floor will make much difference.

But since you have the ceiling height (i.e. garage) why not build a true isolated floor on pads, and full studio/control room etc?

I'll have under 8' after the room within a room ceiling goes in. If I add say, 2 inches of wood floor on top of 5 1/2 inches of floor joist on top of 1 inch of neoprene, I'd only have, at best, a 7' 3" ceiling. Would this be too low? Is it worth the sacrifice? Using 2x4's instead of 2x6's would give me a few more inches at what cost to acoustics?

You could isolate the door by building a hall space to another door.

Like in the first couple of drawings you posted here, the door opens into the room on the left and would hit any floor higher than it's bottom edge. The room width is less than 10' so a "hall" or isolation space would dominate the whole room. However, I am considering building a joist frame floor with a square area cut out in front of the door to allow the door to swing open. This would necessitate a step up onto the main floor, which would feel, look, function, and maybe sound awkward. I really only wanted to do the joist floor for acoustic purposes(as opposed to sound reduction). If it'll sound good like you've done it, I won't bother with the joists. Thanks!

Okay, The soffits are scaring me. Bringing in the sidewalls might be too tight -- I've really only got 6" on each console side. Is a rear and front absorptive wall a problem? Sounds like you are saying stuff the rear half of ceiling with 703 as well --that probably makes sense. I'm basically concerned about soffit placement and angling down if necessary. They would form an equilateral triangle to the mixers head right? --- some of your drawings show a point of intersection behind the mixers head?? I'm good at construction, so it's not the work, but the results. Have a look at this, it keeps my existing front wall 703 and corners, but slips in some slotted panels/bass trap or full 6" 703 on rear wall. This is closer to your small control room design. Thanks! Dave

Bluefield, Here is the plan john gave me for my room...... Notice that is the same width, but shorter in length than yours. trust me, you want the soffits (IMO)

ap, you wrote: "Why is de-coupling the floor from your walls so important? Just to cut down on sound transfer between rooms? From your description, it seems the two rooms have independent concrete floors and thus shouldn't have much transmission there. Is it because they share the same walls? If sound transfers from the live room to the control room via the walls, it doesn't seem like floating the floor will make much difference. " I will give my understanding to date upon this subject. If anyone cares to correct anything, please chime in. Floating the floors (as well as using fiberglass treatments in ceilings and upon walls, including bass traps etc.) in both the studio and control room helps the overall usefulness of each room. There are several issues at work here: 1) Sound transmission between the control room and the studio room -- if kept to a minimum, you will hear what's happening more clearly in the studio via your microphones to the control room while tracking live. My two rooms have a physical break between the concrete floors. This should help with transmission loss. But having a floor that is decoupled from the walls can provide extra benefits as well -- providing some liveliness, act as an absorber, and still be able to roll stuff around. 2) We need sound absorption (sabins) within studios to make recording live instruments and vocals easier. Generally the smaller the studio, the more absorption you will need, IF…… you plan to track multiple live instruments and possible vocals together within that room. This has to do with critical distance (Dc) -- the distance at which direct energy equals reverberant energy. To quote Malcolm Chisholm: "If there is sound bouncing around in a room, the bounce will at some point be as loud as the sound source that created it. That point is called the critical distance, and the Dc of a sound source is a statement of how far it travels in a room before it goes constant volume. Dc varies with a number of factors including the directionality of the source but, as rhythm section instruments have about the same directionality as voice, a general treatment can be made for rhythm and vocal isolation. The treatment needs to yield 26 db or better of die off before the source goes constant volume. Sound dies off by 6 db per distance doubling until the Dc is reached, with the last figure a 3 db point. Therefore, assuming a mike to mouth distance of six inches, 1ft=6db, 2ft=12db; 4ft=18db; 8ft=24db, and as the last figure adds only 3db, a voice Dc of 16 feet adds 3 db more for 27 db of acoustical loss at that figure. You can live with less, as little as 10, but it's not quite satisfactory. 12 is definitely OK for general work, and usually used, but 16 feet is just bloody wonderful, as you can put a vocal anywhere in the room, and allows the mixer to do anything he(she)wants instead of the room's dictating all kinds of weird stuff to keep garbage out of the mikes. " Now if you put everybody in an isolation booth this may not be your problem or goal, but you might have bigger problems like musicians struggling to find a groove, and poor performance. That is a debate, and depends on what kind of music you wish to record. But IMO it's very hard for musicians to work in a room where they can't hear each other because everything is bouncing off the walls, and basically I’ve chosen to go for live room recording for as much of the rhythm section I can grab. Using uniform absorption of low/low-mids and highs will increase the workable critical distance within the studio, making it easier to work multiple microphones within one room with acceptable isolation/leakage between mics. (see link for Malcolm Chisholm’s site in earlier post above). Studios that only use carpet or thin treatments get boomy because they have not addressed the low frequency energy build up within the room. Sound absorption is the process of pressure waves pushing into interstices. Floating an absorptive floor (like unsealed plywood) gives another interstice to absorb, as well as decoupling sound sources to reduce modal excitation -- which can potentially get into every microphone. Getting amplifiers/instruments away from walls and on chairs is another way to reduce the source Q, modal excitation, and phase cancellations between instrument and adjacent wall/floor. 3) In control rooms, some liveliness is desirable, but how much is not an exact science. Floated floors not only help decouple the console and listening environment, but they are practical for moving equipment and cleaning. Interestingly, building soffits apparently uses limited coupling to benefit speaker/lestening performance. On top of this, according to Davis (sound system engineering), in very small control rooms "there is no Dc, no well mixed sound field, and hence no reverberation. RT60 measurements become meaningless. The control of early reflections becomes the most meaningful because there is no reverberation to mask them." Hence my challenge of figuring out the best possible treatments for my small control room. you wrote: "However, I am considering building a joist frame floor with a square area cut out in front of the door to allow the door to swing open. This would necessitate a step up onto the main floor, which would feel, look, function, and maybe sound awkward. I really only wanted to do the joist floor for acoustic purposes(as opposed to sound reduction). If it'll sound good like you've done it, I won't bother with the joists. " Actually I think stepping up to the control area could be kinda cool, but it looks like it's about time for you to post a picture of what you are thinking, and tell us what you are planning to record there. Best, Dave Blauvelt

Hey Giles, Can you post a more exact description of you control room, possibly some pictures? I'd like to see how you built your soffits in particular, if you hung panel sheet absorbers behind the console/ what monitor choice you made etc. The soffits bring up the question of the value of "mini-mains" with extended bass response and any bass attenuation if needed. This makes for an interesting discussion. Best, Dave Blauvelt

Below the window i did 703 between studs. Under the monitors in the soffits (per johns instructions, I installed 703 as well) Helps trap sound reflecting of the front of the room. It tightened up stuff around 250 to 100 for me. Evened out the "audible" response. I followed the other picture of soffit building you see on line and I followed Johns dimensions. I Loaded mine with mackie 824's My Room before construction was about 13' x 10'10 with an 8.5' ceiling ht. I floated the floor on 2x4's and 2 layers of 5/8" particle board with a hardwood floor on top. Walls were floated as well. double layers of Drywall. The interior angled walls as you see in the FP are loaded with AFB. I probably spent about $50.00 on all the safb I needed for the interior sound control stuff. I used to 32" 9-light doors with the magnetic strip. I am pleased with the results. Between the CR and the LR there is about a 12" air space between walls. Loaded with 2.5" SAFB The rear ceiling is dropped at an angle about 5" at the center point of the room (approx) and 1' at the rear of the room, loaded with 1.5" double layered AFB. This really tightened up my bass response. the room is really flat from 40Hz to 100hz. The front (what I am finishing up now) will be a slot resonator with the 1.5" AFB double layered. This stuff was really cheap. $16.00 for 32 - 2'x4' sheets. Works so well too. (.16 /sq. ft.) Any other questions, let me know Bryan

Cool Giles post some pics if you get a chance

Hi, Just looking at some of the designs here...I was wondering about the ones with the window on the right side and what appears to be a treated panel on the left.Wouldn't you get really bad reflections from that side and not the other?Just curious as I may have the same sort of setup soon. Thanks Chris