Floor & ceiling construction

I couldn't find the answer to my questions elsewhere, so here goes.... Floors: In my situation can I just stick the (2) layers of particle wood (aspanite) on the neoprene pads and forget about the 2x4s? Ceilings: Would this be similar to wall construction? Additionally, how do I (and should I) angle the ceilings? They will be 10Ft ceilings. I'm also wondering if I should leave the inside of the outside walls bare? Insulation and vapor barrier only? Same thing for the ceiling....but then how do you hold the insulation? :shock: I've attached a drawing to help explain my new construction. Thanks! :)

Luke, long time no type :) Basic ideas are looking good - Floors: In my situation can I just stick the (2) layers of particle wood (aspanite) on the neoprene pads and forget about the 2x4s? *Sure, as long as the pads are close enough together, but acoustically it would sound better if you had more air, filled with mineral wool batts. Ceilings: Would this be similar to wall construction? Additionally, how do I (and should I) angle the ceilings? They will be 10Ft ceilings. *Yes, same basic idea. One air space, two mass leaves (each leaf can be multiple layers, just no air) You could angle the ceilings, but I'd recommend leaving the REAL ceiling straight for easier sound proof construction, then building a FALSE angled ceiling that's lower at the front for redirecting early reflections to the rear of the room. I'm also wondering if I should leave the inside of the outside walls bare? Insulation and vapor barrier only? Same thing for the ceiling....but then how do you hold the insulation? *It's not really clear from your drawings, but remember the 2-leaf rule - extra leaves or air spaces can make isolation worse, not better. So if the outside of your outer frame is clad, then only the inside (or outside, not both) of you inner frame should be clad. If you use John's inside-out walls for part of the control room, then the panels for those walls would go on the outside of the inner frame. It looks like you have the space to do that and not compromise isolation if you wanted to. On the ceiling, you could do double wallboard on the upper frame (where a normal house would have it) lay heavy insulation above that, then double panel (different thicknesses than the outer ceiling though) the inside of the inner ceiling frame, and lay mineral wool batts in the cavities (the batts would have to go up before the panels) For a false angled ceiling, you could use 2x4's for framing and run them up and to the rear over the mix desk and cover the center area with 1/2" wallboard - put bass hangers of various lengths hanging from the flat ceiling down into this tapered cavity, leave the outermost left and right stud bays open and cover them in rigid fiberglas (703, knauf) - that way, you'd have Reflection Free mix area, a large bass trap entered at the two points of highest sound pressure, and hangers inside to tame them even further. Just remember not to "short out" any resilient mounts for the inner wallboard with the false ceiling frame - avoiding that might get as tricky as just angling the whole inner ceiling. John's done lots more of that than I, you might want to ask him... Steve

In my home studio, which I'm just starting to reconstruct (just finished tear down), I'm not going to bother with a raised floor with 2x4's, the reason because underneath the existing floor are 2x16 joists filled with wool insulation and a plaster ceiling below that, in the garage. The existing sub floor is tongue and groove 2" thick hardwood of some unknown kind, with a layer of 1" thick tongue and groove oak planks going the other way. On top of this is plywood, then glued on office tiles that are a disgusting yellow color. My garage loft floor is definately solid. So, I'm simply going to slap down neoprene and put pergo on top of that for a nice looking, low maintance floor. I may put 1/2" plywood over the neoprene so the pergo boards don't stress at the tongue and groove joints, but I haven't decided if thats necessary yet. If your floor isn't insulated well, you may want to do that. Its an important aspect of studio construction.

Hi Steve, thanks for info. I've added some details to my drawing so you could see if I understand correctly. (bottom drawing) Not too sure I understand your ceiling construction idea. :? Would it sit on top of the walls? What would be the proper angle for the slope? So with the ceiling at 10 feet at the back of the control room, what would be the ideal height in the front? I was also wondering what the angle of the ceiling in my live room should be? And going which way?? I put another drawing....picture's worth a thousand words! One last question if I may, In reference to Frederic's post, should I insulate underneath my floors? Link to studio layout below: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=432&highlight= Many thanks! P.S. Do you ever sleep? :wink:

knightfly wrote:

You could angle the ceilings, but I'd recommend leaving the REAL ceiling straight for easier sound proof construction, then building a FALSE angled ceiling that's lower at the front for redirecting early reflections to the rear of the room.

while you're on there Steve, The false ceilings are usualy lightly constructed, right?? :? ...it would probably be thin plywood or something like that..(or would it not???) would this be efficient to redirect the sound throughout the frequency spectrum, or would the bass just go right thru, bounce of the real ceiling and come back thru.. :?: probably silly thoughts, but I was just a bit puzzled... thanks

Luke, last question first - I would really like to be able to just by-pass sleep entirely, it seems like such a waste of time - unfortunately, I haven't figured out a way to accomplish that without frequent "crash and burn" episodes, so I settle for 4-5 hours a night (or day, depending) with occasional splurges to 6-7 hours. Speaking of which, I'm steadily getting behind on some things that need attention around here, so it may be a couple of days before I finish the drawings/explanations you need - if you get bored, you could always hit the SAE site for some study, I've found that you almost cannot go there without learning SOMETHING. I should have anticipated your questions about angles when I wrote that about the ceiling, it's a natural followup - problem is, the answer requires some basic ray-tracing in order to get it right, and my CAD program doesn't do that the easy way, so it's kind of time-consuming. Rest assured though, that when I DO get something for you I won't be totally talking out my butt... Steve Sen - you're pretty close to the mark on all your assumptions - as with my comments to Luke, that was a pretty generic statement about the trap. When I get Luke's questions answered, yours should be too. Involves panel resonance as well as some other calculations, and in fact may not even work when I follow the idea thru - stay tuned... Steve

Thanks Steve, Sure appreciate your help! :D

I'd see it like this Luke cheers john

or like this

Hi John, Very cool...I didn't think it was a good idea to have a cathedral "peak" ceiling :? But then again what do I know??? :shock: What's the thinking behind this design? And how do you support this "false" ceiling? Is that 2x8 beam braced to the outer ceiling? Where do the 2x4's sit? I still haven't understood the ceiling principle. I've read your SAE docs, but i'm still unsure. (great site btw!) So many questions, so little time :roll: Thanks guys!

knightfly wrote:

Sen - you're pretty close to the mark on all your assumptions - as with my comments to Luke, that was a pretty generic statement about the trap. When I get Luke's questions answered, yours should be too. Involves panel resonance as well as some other calculations, and in fact may not even work when I follow the idea thru - stay tuned... Steve

thanks Steve...I had doubts about bass, but that false ceiling construction with hangers above would be the big bass trap , so that would take care of the lower part of the spectrum...?? :? something like that..??

Right again, Sen - on the drawings; I'm still kind of balled up on time vs commitments, but I've not forgotten - I'll get to it as soon as I can... Steve

Ok, I've made some adjustments. I think I understand how the ceiling is framed (sort of) :wink: Now If someone could confirm my layers, that would be extremely cool :P Thanks EDIT:: I just noticed that I reversed the angle on the Live Room Ceiling, oops :shock: . Was it better the other way??

Luke - yeah, your live ceiling WAS probably better the other way if that's where the drums will likely go. I just posted an answer to your wall questions, in which are a lot of reasons/rules of soundproofing - as to your floor/ceilings, we're not there yet. I've been trying to find time to finish the drawings I started on that, and still haven't got there yet. In the meantime, you're getting further afield without my realizing it. Here's what I mean - keep in mind that the OUTER shell is for soundproofing, and that the ONLY function John's vaulted ceiling has is for ACOUSTICS. Not the same. Your drawing shows double wallboard over RC, with bass hangers above, then only one leaf above that in the level part of the ceiling. This will sort of work for sound proofing, but there is no point in putting those hangers in that cavity with that much mass over the frame. It still won't act like a bass trap, because the panels are too rigid to flex enough. What you need, is a double leaf ceiling where it's LEVEL on top, then a light weight plywood cover on light studs for the false ceiling, with absorbent along the wall intersection so the high pressures from bass waves can enter the triangular chamber above the mix area. Once these LF waves get in there, the hangers impede the wave motion, and absorb even more bass. The hard plywood cover over most of this frame will redirect early reflections to the rear of the room, while keeping the sound at the mix position from being sucked dry of highs. Also, the lightweight plywood panels over most of the frame will act somewhat as panel absorbers, but at a different frequency than the chamber, so you get kind of a "two-fer" out of the deal. Or a "three-fer" considering the early reflection bonus. What's taking me so long on real drawings is this: coming up with a way to fasten the frame of the false ceiling without negating the result of resilient mounting of the wall panels in the control room. Acoustically, they should be isolated from each other and yet one has to support the other. I think I'm going to talk to John and see how he's done it in the studios he's done, since he's done more odd-angled construction than I have. Right now, it's after 3 am and I'm gonna crash. Check out my answers on your wall post... Steve

frederic wrote:

In my home studio, which I'm just starting to reconstruct (just finished tear down), I'm not going to bother with a raised floor with 2x4's, the reason because underneath the existing floor are 2x16 joists filled with wool insulation and a plaster ceiling below that, in the garage. The existing sub floor is tongue and groove 2" thick hardwood of some unknown kind, with a layer of 1" thick tongue and groove oak planks going the other way. On top of this is plywood, then glued on office tiles that are a disgusting yellow color. My garage loft floor is definately solid. So, I'm simply going to slap down neoprene and put pergo on top of that for a nice looking, low maintance floor. I may put 1/2" plywood over the neoprene so the pergo boards don't stress at the tongue and groove joints, but I haven't decided if thats necessary yet. If your floor isn't insulated well, you may want to do that. Its an important aspect of studio construction.

Frederic, can you show your structure draw so that we can have a definte idea about it? Raised floor is not suitable to be placed on solid laminate flooring due to the characters of this type of flooring.