12x13 control room sketch

After years of planning (or basic thought) I've finally started working on my studio again (version/idea 2.0) not to mention the 60 sheets of drywall sitting in my upstairs livingroom since Nov 2004..anyway..The location is in south Denver, Colorado. I would be interested in input as to how to solve a few problems (if they are indeed problems that I should be concerned with) (Water tree noise, external window (leak noise/outside access) and the existing house sewer drain (thinking of installing the toilet and sink but wondering if that would be a bad idea inside the control room. I had originally thought of making a 4ft room way with a bathroom however the 12x13 control room seemed like a better idea although all I would need is a minifridge and I could live in there for days. :wink: The 3 walls are foundation concrete with the floor being 6 inch concrete/meshed. The drainage is standard PVC with the water tree being copper pipe. I am wondering if it would be better to just have this relocated to avoid any issues as the sprinkers must be drained every year otherwise I would conceal it. Ideally I want this as soundproof as possible as the live room is about 10 feet from the open wall as there are stairs leading to the floor level. I'm working on getting a complete sketchup done for the whole thing. I am open to cost ideas as I don't want to skimp on quality vs cost, I'm not looking at spending $50,000 on it but depending on options would lean towards better ideas and spend the money. I don't have ground water issues as i am at the highest point in the area and in 8 years since the house was built I have seen little movement.

First of all, not all of us have Sketchup installed (not even the free viewer), so it's usually best to also post a JPEG of the sketch. Even those who do have it installed can get a glimpse of it right away and only open the attached file if needed. 8) Second, is your upstairs living room on a slab, or is it over the basement? Also, are the 60 sheets of drywall all in one contiguous stack? What size are the sheets? The reason I ask is that if they're 4x8 sheets of 5/8", that's over two tons of drywall, and if it's all in a single stack, that's roughly 138 pounds per square foot! :shock: I certainly wouldn't want to be standing under that load! :!: :!: :!: I'm seriously concerned -- please assure me that a catastrophic collapse isn't imminent! If it's all atop a slab, then I'll stop freaking out.

Thanks, here is a jpg snip with the dimensions also. It is over the basement part exactly. The drywall upstairs is in several stacks actually as 3500lbs is a LOT to have in one spot however it is distributed. I have 40x50lbs sheets of 1/2 and 20x74lbs sheets of 5/8" and 4 sheets of 5/8 compressed board. Some other things i thought of...I'm going to use steel beams for the walls unless I hear wood would be preferred. I "think" 2x4s on the floor sideways instead of straight up would be preferred just to keep the headroom as much as possible. I'm looking for neoprene 1/2" 60duro in the area as I dont think online would be cost effective for delivery but i might be wrong there. i also have a 4x30ft roll of auralex sheetblok that I planned on using on the ceiling portion inbetween the two (maybe) three layers of drywall for better isolation, I also have 12ft long RC strips which I got at Homebase that I will be using to hang the walls. Another "concern" is the non-concrete or open wall. I have ventilation to the outside and upstairs running straight across the 13ft at the very top edge. I was thinking of just angling the ceiling at a 45 degree just in the upper part hoping that wouldnt create issues. As for use of the room, I'm going to record everything possible, mostly rock and some metal. I use KRK speakers and plan on installing my existing 5.1 system there which is why the 12x13x9-10ft is of interest. I can't think of anything but feel free to ask as I value the input of this forum...thanks again James

You'll want to resize that image -- 947 pixels is too wide. See John's plea to keep images <700 pixels wide. I'm impressed by the height of your basement ceiling! 8) Does your sewer line have a cleanout? If so, you'll need to provision access for it. There's been a bit of talk here about wood vs. steel framing. There are pros and cons for each, that's for sure. Here's one thing to keep in mind:

knightfly wrote:

one of the down sides of using steel in insulated walls with gypsum, is that it only takes 1/100 as much water retention to cause problems (mold, rot, etc) as it does with masonry; wood studs and wood paneling is in between in the amount of moisture that can be retained without problems. (Source)

So, you're planning to float a floor, eh? Do you plan to attach your walls to the floated floor? What will your floor consist of? Have you done your resonance calculations? What will be the size of your pucks and your spacing? Are you sure that the results of your floated floor will be better than if you don't float at all? :roll: Also, you're planning to use mass-loaded vinyl, eh? Have you seen this thread (and others)? :roll:

Thanks, I resized it The actual floor to basement ceiling is a big plus, one of the reasons I am trying to keep that 10ft headroom if possible and already has the Ibeams ready for insulation. The sewer does have a clean out..there is a pipe going to the 2nd floor bathroom (2 main floors) and basement, it is the upper one and there are toilet/sink drainage right in that corner..the sewer cleanout cap is right next to it. I may have mismarked it but its one of the two protruding pipes. I do not have any water issues but I did plan on airflow on the concrete between the raised floor also for cable runs but do need to keep sound isolation in mind..I get access to the sump pump in that area I am planning on a floating floor based on the pictures I saw from the floating floor on concrete thread (http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... r&start=15) aaronw, 2nd page, middle pic is the idea...2x4s on neoprene,5/8" particle board then not sure on another layer..still wondering about what type of flooring to put down. The floor will be spaced with cant recall the name of the board, but for moisture and such...the floating floor up against that. Then build the walls on top of that floor..at the top I need to space it for ground movement just in case and to completely keep it detached from the upper ceiling. I have done no calculations other than getting ideas trying to figure out if I need to move the watertree, plumbing, existing HVAC connections. Looking at doing dual layer just not sure if I should do 1/2" sheetblok 5/8" or something to that effect on the ceiling. With three of the walls being foundation concrete I didn't think that i would have as much of an issue if i left out the sheetblok...The front wall will also be of concern with the door access. Since the control room is completely isolated from the live room and isolation rooms I don't have a window issue. I will be installing a window between the isolation and live room..however that is phase two of this project.

A couple more pictures here, resized also to get a better look.

Here's one thing to keep in mind: knightfly wrote: one of the down sides of using steel in insulated walls with gypsum, is that it only takes 1/100 as much water retention to cause problems (mold, rot, etc) as it does with masonry; wood studs and wood paneling is in between in the amount of moisture that can be retained without problems.

I get the impression that 2x4 or 2x6 wood is just more costwise and that steel framing doesn't offer any acoustical additional benefits?

No substantitive Acoustical Benefits that anyone mentioned here that would have made me spend the additional .10 per steel stud at my local Lowes...

hmm, I found a good source for finding neoprene here in the US if someone wants to use this link...someone may already have posted it but I couldn't find sources until a bit ago.. Link

well time for an update...neoprene idea scrapped..went with 2 boxes of Auralex uboats..plumber was here today and will be back on tuesday to completely move the watertree to another section and also bringing a HVAC and Electrician with studio expertise (as part of my package) with him..so resuming work sheesh..is 3 years spending a bit toooo much putting thought in to the studio..lol and the 3500lbs of drywall/mdf board finally moved from my above the studio..it sat there for almost 2 years :( but its now all in the basement arg..I forgot what the front livingroom floor looked like Jaymz

Previously I wrote:

sharward wrote:

So, you're planning to float a floor, eh? Do you plan to attach your walls to the floated floor? What will your floor consist of? Have you done your resonance calculations? What will be the size of your pucks and your spacing? Are you sure that the results of your floated floor will be better than if you don't float at all? :roll:

You then wrote:

jlshelby wrote:

I have done no calculations . . .

...and now you write:

jlshelby wrote:

. . . neoprene idea scrapped..went with 2 boxes of Auralex uboats . . .

Have you seen what I wrote in this thread about the lack of testing and specifications regarding the use of that product? You are at great risk of building a floating floor that will perform worse than if you did not float at all. Here is a very compelling post from Paul Woodlock on the pointlessness of floating lightweight floors. If by chance you don't recognize Paul's name, then that's more evidence that you have more studying to do on the subject. ;-) Check out his monster thread at StudioTips. Plan on spending a few days reading what he has gone through to do a proper heavy floated floor system. Also, don't miss this post from Rod Gervais on the "trendiness" of floating floors (actually, slabs in this case). If you don't recognize Rod's name (or even if you do), then definitely buy his new book. Bottom line: you can't just assume that floating a floor is going to be better than not floating it, because you have to take into account so many factors, including resonance frequencies, the risks of overloading and underloading your elastomers, and especially the combination of both -- bad resonance issues combined with a floor that doesn't actually float due to a lack of "springiness" due to underloading or bottoming out -- the latter being the equivalent of a nasty "drum head" as a floor that amplifies certain frequencies, with zero benefits! :shock: Finally...

jlshelby wrote:

. . . 3 years spending a bit toooo much putting thought in to the studio

Actually, it isn't. :) You want to spend more time putting thought into it and learning how to do it right than you do fixing what you didn't do right in the first place. ;-) It's a heck of a lot cheaper, and more fun, to do it right once, the first time. We're here to help, Jaymz... But you have to let us! ;-) --Keith :mrgreen:

Thanks again for the replies Keith :) I should correct a few things...I have 2 boxes of Auralex UBoats..no construction done on the floor as of yet..they are going to remove all the plumbing and watertree on tuesday and with the electrical and HVAC from the same guys showing up to see what else should be done...I was reading your link and I must buy Rod's book. NM..just bought it from amazon The reason on the neoprene as it was going to be much more however I could use the neoprene on the walls too but the flooring was the original reason for it. One of the reasons i am posting again is to get more input about the flooring. I'm also reading about how to seal off my basement window and yet have a removable unit that is still able to be removed for access to the outside. I'm probably a bit confused on the "exact" use for the uboats but ideally for keeping the bass from driving the 2x4s in to the concrete all at once. With them floated I figured that would be a lot better for long term use to avoid my concrete from taking a heavy beating. I figured it would also not have as much of a boom impact as it leaked out below the flooring and under the rest of the basement..something else I need to think about in the future. Presently I have 40 sheets of 1/2" drywall, 20 sheets of 5/8" drywall. 4 3/4" MDF for the flooring and 2 1/2" MDF for possible ceiling use also...then there are the 100 Uboats and a 30' sheet of Aurlex sheetblok that I was going to sandwich in between two sheets of drywall to cut off the sound to the upstairs which would be my worst area of sound leakage. I'm also thinking of getting the RC for at minimum the ceiling and probably all of the interior since this is the control room but I still have a lot of prerequirements before I can get back to doing construction so once that is done things should start moving so I'm reading, talking and reading some more...it is very difficult to know what would work best however seeing as the other area that I had built 8 years ago sounded great with the exception of the floor...I just dont want to miss something like that which requires a do-over... Ideas, recommendations, things to look out for or questions feel free. I need to do a new sketchup drawing and start placing the soundlock doors and bathroom area so I can visualize it better.

I've been reading your thread Keith as it appears it should be published as a book soon due to the amount of information, pictures and reference links :D I've been spending the past week doing a new complete basement sketchup for measurements and positioning to which I will post along with some picture snapshots for those that dont have the viewer installed. The watertree has been relocated and water noise should be zero without any concerns. I just have the two HVAC metal runs that need serious thought. Also waiting for Amazon to deliver my copy of Rod's book. :lol: Getting back to the weight calculations which have been referenced more than once and reading your thread I'm trying to figure that part out now as its definately not a minor thing as I had thought :shock:

Thanks for the thanks, and for recognizing the value in the links that I include in my monster thread. :) I've gotten to the point where coding links using BBCode is so quick that I don't even hardly think about it anymore. ;-) You're going to love Rod's book -- just as everyone else does! As for the weight -- just remember... If it's not heavy, it won't work... And if it's heavy, it might work but it might collapse, and if it collapses, it no worky anymore -- and you might not either! :lol: --Keith :mrgreen:

I just rediscovered this awesome thread which includes, among many other very quotable quotables, this statement from Paul Woodlock himself:

Paul Woodlock wrote:

. . . To calculate a floating floor properly, you need the specifications of your intended Elastomer. These specs will include nomographs of the modulus of elasticity against time temp and load. . .

The U-boats offer None of this data. :x Moving on...

Paul Woodlock wrote:

. . . For all: A floating floor is a mass-spring-mass system. And as such has a resonant frequency. At this resonant freqeuncy you don't get isolation, in fact you get the reverse...amplification. The amount of amplification depends upon how damped the elastomer is. Anyone whose ever driven a car where the shock absorbers have given up the ghost, will know painfully the effects of amplification at resonance as their car bounces wildly down the road. To avoid the floating floor making things worse the resonant ( or 'natural', as you'll sometimes see it described ) freqeuncy must be calculated to be BELOW the audible freqeuncy range. Or at least below the lowest freqeuncy your monitors can reproduce. . .

He goes on to say...

Paul Woodlock wrote:

A wooden floated floor is effectively a huge drumskin. So floating a wooden floating floor,even if you do calculate a low enough natural frequency, can severely affect the acoustics of the room. . .

And finally...

Paul Woodlock wrote:

. . . A floating floor is really the LAST Line of defence in Soundproofing. In other words, UNLESS the rest of the soundproofing is of a VERY HIGH Isolation value, there is little point in floating the floor at all. Floating Floors ( a floating anything ) without calculation, or when it's actually unecessary to float a floor is very likely to waste lots of time, effort and money.

I recommend reading the whole thread to get everything in context, but those are some beauties I wanted to make sure to underscore for you, and anyone else watching this. --Keith :mrgreen:

I received Rod's book today and it has already paid for itself with something that I just completely did not think about which is that my ceiling has 9" existing joists that i was just going to put insulation in, then 2 layers of drywall with the sheetblok..well there is a great picture of using drywall pieces and caulk...I could do 9 3/4" layers without losing any ceiling space not that i would use that many but just the thought of having a better use for that space and being able to reduce the sound transmission is great as I do not want to lose my 9' - 10' ceiling headroom in the control room. i will definately read the thread you linked along with going back and rereading yours..heh..I read most of the 65 pages last night. The whole weight calculation phase is still a bit confusing as well..obviously more reading needs to be done :? I need to also get my plans done for the permit phase which I finally was able to find the forms and such. Once the permit phase is done you cant stop working for 6 months or its a do over process..blah..ok..time to get it DONE :D

I know what you mean about the "6 month" thing... What that means (if your city handles it like mine) is that you must schedule an inspection within six months of your permit issue date. Each inspection buys you another six month window. You don't have to be finished completely in six months -- you just have to prove that the project is moving and not abandoned. If you get close to a six month expiration date, you may be able to get a courtesy extension. What you generally don't want is to allow your permit to expire, because then you have to start the entire process over again and must adhere to any code changes that have been implemented/adopted since the original plan review -- not to mention paying the plan check fee again. As far as the weight calculations are concerned, there are two reasons this is important. One is to make sure you don't overload anything to the point of being dangerous. That's the most critical part, obviously. The second reason only really applies if you are floating a floor on elastomers -- that's where you need to make sure you don't overload or underload. I'm delighted that my thread is helping -- and you deserve at least a cookie for suffering through its length! ;-) But, really, Rod's book is way better in terms of its use as a how-to guide. Mine thread is a diary, which can be informative -- but his is an actual how-to guide, almost a textbook. In the event of a conflict, follow Rod's book!! :) --Keith :mrgreen: