Design advice for live room/classroom

Hi all, Ok, here is the overview... I am opening a music lessons studio in a Minneapolis suburb. I currently own one place and am opening a second. This new lesson studio will be located within a music instrument store, also being built from scratch but I am not the owner of the store, just the music school. A unique feature of my current school is that I built a recording studio in the space for students to record, as well as people in the community. The room is nice, but way too small. The new store/school will be large enough for me to build a bigger and better recording studio. Now, the space is not way huge, but it is all I am able to carve out for myself. The space I have to work with is 20' x 20', with an added chuck sticking out 6.5' and 11' long. The ceiling is 12' in both the CR and the live room. See picture 1... http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/3123/studiodesignemail20ar.jpg Now, the live room will be used for recording purposes, as well as a small classroom for pre-school music classes, group guitar, etc... For the construction, I am open to do just about anything...money permitting. The space is currently empty, no walls or anything. So, I am able to construct my studio/classroom any way I want, within this given space. I don't think I will be floating the floor, but I will build a drum riser that will be floating, since drums usually make the most noice through the floor, or so I have noticed. I also want to build a small amp closet...nothing fancy but just a small closet to hold an amp. I do not need a room for the drums...I like the live sound and I've never had a major problem with leakage from the bass or guitars. Plus, I don't have much room to build another room. The placement of the drum riser and amp closet can be changed...if you have a better place, please let me know. One of the big concerns is making sure there is enough room for children, small ensembles, etc to use the space without feeling too cramped. therefore, I put the drums up in front of the control room and the amp closet near the CR. As for budget, I may be totally off here but I would like to keep the construction cost under $8000. That is not a hard number, but a good area that I can be at with a little room to move. Ok, so here come the questions: (I apologize if these questions are posted in the wrong section of the forum, but since I am asking about design and construction regarding acoustics, I wasn't sure which category would be better.) 1. In the live room, is there anything I can do design/construction-wise that will make the room have a good live feel, without being a gymnasium. If need be, I can purchase Auralex type stuff and treat the room, but I wanted to know if there were any construction designs that might be better and possibly cost less than simple room treatment. Again, I need this room to sound as good as possible for recording, but as large as possible to accomidate small classes and Kindermusic type classes. I know its a tall order, but its definately original... 2. In the control room, would it be better to design and construct the room as shown, or would building a rectangular room and adding wall treatment be a better and/or cheaper solution? 3. Also in the CR, would designing and building a slanted ceiling be better and more cost efficent than just treating a typical ceiling. Ok, I think those are the main questions I had at this point. Please, feel free to question, criticize, and redesign at leisure. I am looking for all the input I can get and from what I have read on the forum, some of you really know your stuff. If I need to post this in the acoustics or construction forum, please let me know and I will repost ASAP. Thanks in advance... Jordy A

I'll start workin on it tomorrow when I get home from work now it's time for me to hit the sack.

Thanks. Have a good day at work... Jordy

How thick are the exterior walls of the space? Do you want room with in a room, or are you going to go with staggered stud construction? And could you give me a more detailed drawing including all dimensions of the window and door placements, breaker box location, water drainage plumbing that needs access because of cleanouts, hvac ducting. And pictures of the space would be very helpful too

yes, I can go and get pics of the space for you. The entire space for the music store, lessons, recording, etc.. is 2900 sq ft. The general contractor will be building the walls for the whole space (music store, lessons, etc.) so as to not let sound intrude on our neighbors in the strip mall. Right now, it is a big empty space with no walls separating any of the businesses yet. This whole strip mall was just built recently and the space we are leasing has no walls up yet separating us from anyone else, so when you are inside you can look down the whole length of the strip mall. Basically, the outside walls, the floor and the top ceiling is all that has been built in the whole building. The picture underneath is our entire space we are renting. http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7789/fp2musicstorenewemaillayers0st.jpg My plan currently is to build the recording and control room space with staggered studs (to save on space), using an RC on one side with two layers of sheet rock on both sides. There will be insulation in the walls as well. On the picture, these are the walls in red. The Control Room walls that do not face the outside wall or face the store will also be staggered stud with an RC and 2 layers of sheetrock on each side (the green line). http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/3948/studiodesignemaillayers0pf.jpg I apologize that I do not have more detailed info regarding the doors or windows. Since this is all still in planning mode, I've been consumed with fitting this within my alotment of space. However, the door (just a regular solid core door from home depot) to the live room will be on the bottom corner, as shown on the drawing. The measurements will be around 36"x80". That goes for the control room door as well. The window on the bottom of the drawing(the blue line) is there for people to view classes, ensemble lessons, recordings, and whatever else is going on in that room. The idea is they see what is happening and want to try it themselves. I do not have any measurements for that yet, but it will probably be 6x3.5, or in that area. I will probably do a double pane, like a control room window, so there is less leakage out of this window. There will be no pipes or drainage within the recording studio, they will be on the other side by the bathrooms. The breaker box is also not near the room, but on the back wall in the area of the bathrooms. As for HVAC, there is no ductwork currently in place. This will all be put in when we do our buildout. However, I am curious to see if anyone has any good ideas for keeping the studio and control room cool by just taking a feed off the main duct work. In our current location, this is what we did and the problem with that is the AC control in the hallway reads the temp from the hallway, so when it reaches the "cool" level, it shuts off, while my studio and control room continue to heat up with all the gear running. If we moved the AC control into the studio, it would cool it nicely, but the rest of the store would probably be freezing. If you have any ideas, I'd like to hear those as well. I hope that helps a little. Let me know what else you need. I will get those pics of the space ASAP. thanks again.

Will the owner let you have this little extra space highlighted in red And the door thats towards the rear of where you have you control room is that a fire exit?

Yes, I can do anything I want with that space. I was thinking of making that space a sound lock, without the walls. And no, the fire door is over by the bathrooms on the right side of the drawing. The landlord ended up moving us one chuck over, which put the fire door on the right side by the bathrooms, and not the center as first thought. The hallway that walks between the lesson rooms and the bathrooms will go straight out the firedoor.

I used the idea you already had just added treatment to the space and added the few things you wanted and were thinking about. I hope this help. the thick walls are 2x6 plates with 2x4's stagger stud the thinner walls are standard 2x4 wall construction

Wow, first can I say that is a beautiful room. Thanks. I am meeting with my partners on Monday and will show them the design. One question, in the live room and the control room I am assuming those are acoustical hangers in the bass traps. If I used a corner absorber or low frequency panel absorbers, would that have the same effect as the hangers? I understand that by doing it your way, the walls will be splayed, which is another plus. But, I'm just trying to get all the space I can in the live room. Another question has to do with the lengths of the walls. what measurement did you use to equal 1 foot on the drawing? I still can't get over how cool that looks. What did you use to design it? Thanks again, Jordy A.

Yes those are hangers in the bass traps. I played the walls to break up the parrallelness of the walls I can send you the DXF file which will be 1/4"= 1' A program called 3D Home achitecture 3.0 Deluxe I'll post some 3D renderings of the drawing tomorrow for you to see it If you and your partners would like Total renderings of entire space email me and we can discuss it more privately

yeah, that sounds great. I can't wait to see the 3D renderings. As for the acoustic hangers, I've been searching the acoustic part of the forum, and I found quite a few examples to choose from. I figure I will wrap some plywood in insulation and hang from the ceiling joists. From looking at your example in the drawing, would you suggest that I use different heights for the hangers? They will already be different lengths to fill up the space they hang in, but from what I have read, the height can remain the same. Any thoughts... Also, in the drawing there appears to be am area for soffit mounted speakers. Would I be wrong to just place my speakers on my console desk, erase the soffits, and that would give me a little extra space in the live room. The only monitors I have are Alesis active M1. Good for near-feild work at best.

jordya wrote:

As for the acoustic hangers, I've been searching the acoustic part of the forum, and I found quite a few examples to choose from. I figure I will wrap some plywood in insulation and hang from the ceiling joists. From looking at your example in the drawing, would you suggest that I use different heights for the hangers? They will already be different lengths to fill up the space they hang in, but from what I have read, the height can remain the same. Any thoughts...

I'll let the pros answer these as I'm not a pro and wouldnt know how to answer them

jordya wrote:

Also, in the drawing there appears to be am area for soffit mounted speakers. Would I be wrong to just place my speakers on my console desk, erase the soffits, and that would give me a little extra space in the live room. The only monitors I have are Alesis active M1. Good for near-feild work at best.

I think it would be ok but I'm not for sure, maybe John can chime in and say whether it would be ok or not.

Doni - get the geometry right, and where the speakers go etc.. ;) what import files can your program take? cheers John

that's the only problem with this program I can't import anything so I have to work with a cad program. I know it makes it more time consuming but it's all I have to work with. So I make do.

John, In your design, would I just use corner absorbers and side wall absorbers to get rid of the parallel-ness of the live room? Also, what effect would that have if I opened up the live room to one room instead of two rooms? http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/136/jordyajohnsayersjpg7om.jpg I am trying to keep it an open space for group lessons, pre-school music classes, etc.

Here you go. Johns redo of the control room with what I had originally done for the live room and amp iso

ok, I'm curious why there are to entrances for the control room. I am guessing that is a sliding glass door in the live room. I've never seen that done before, so I'm just curious what made you think to do it that way. Wouldn't there be more leakage into the control room by using another doorway?

The second entrance is for, lets say there was someone else other than yourself was in the control room with you and they needed to go say to the bathroom you wouldn't want them to go through the live room while you were recording. The double sliding glass door is like a sound lock in itself. think of the control room as a room within a room 2 sliding doors will act more like a double wall than just a single sliding door When I first drew it up that thought had not even crossed my mind and I'm very glad to have a professional like John catch something like that. Just shows me I need to think of everything before posting up a sketch Thanks John for catching that and thanks for the mild scalding you gave me about my geometry. It's a good Teacher Student relationship LOL

oh, ok. that makes sense. Good idea indeed. Thank you. Ok, I've been reading many different posts and other websites as well regarding acoustical treatment issues. In your design, the control room is being treated with the hangers and the walls are splayed. The question is: would I still need to mount a side-wall absorber or something to absorb the lows and reflect the highs? I know the lows are being absorbed in the back and the splayed walls help with parallelness, but does anyone know if treatment is still required for a room of this design. Any advice is appreciated... thanks

You could make the one played wall and where you would soffit mount spakers a slot resonator for broadband absorbtion but as for the rest of the room I dont know I'll let John answer that one