drum room in basement

Started by foggie on 19 August 2005. 36 replies. In the Library under Walls, floors and ceilings.

Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 4234.

Sharward:
I agree that this is not a good situation -- pipes as a flanking path will really hurt your isolation, not to menion the noise resulting from water flow getting transmitted to the room. There are code restrictions in place around notching and boring of joists. See the illustration below (from Quality in Construction Manual: Guidelines for the Building & Inspetion Industries). You may need to lower the ceiling a little for the pipes to clear in that area. However, make sure you maintain your minimum height requirements pursuant to code.
Thank you! Very helpful. Lowering the ceiling is an option, but I would have to take down all of the channels but more importantly I don't want to lose any more ceiling space (unless I have to). I think the ceiling unfinished is 8'-1ish". So by adding 2x4's to the joists (which is about what is need to get below the pipes) and then channels and finally two layers of rock I would loose 3in and that's with an unfinished floor. If it comes to that I will. What problems would there be if the pipes were touching the backside of the first layer of rock? Thanks! Steve
foggie wrote:
Lowering the ceiling is an option, but I would have to take down all of the channels but more importantly I don't want to lose any more ceiling space (unless I have to). I think the ceiling unfinished is 8'-1ish". So by adding 2x4's to the joists (which is about what is need to get below the pipes) and then channels and finally two layers of rock I would loose 3in and that's with an unfinished floor. If it comes to that I will.
It may very well "come to that." Fortunately, I think you have enough headroom to meet code -- habitable spaces require, I believe, 7' 6" minimum vertical clearance. Keep in mind that's finished clearance. I understand your desire to maintain maximum headroom (Max Headroom?!), but losing 1 1/2" in that small area shouldn't matter much in the big scheme of things.
What problems would there be if the pipes were touching the backside of the first layer of rock?
I already said it -- flanking, flanking, and more flanking. No time to explain in detail, but any student of this forum knows that hard connections between leaves are no good. You're putting up your channels for a reason, right? Don't short-change yourself on this obstacle. --Keith :mrgreen:
What problems would there be if the pipes were touching the backside of the first layer of rock? IF the pipes went nowhere else (not to other areas needing to be isolated) the low end isolation wouldn't change with hard contact - this is almost entirely a function of the air gap between leaves. However, the midrange would suffer by about 12 dB in this case by NOT having resilient mounts. Then there is the water noise and flanking problems; these DEMAND that you NOT let the pipes touch the back of the first layer of gypsum. If you can, post a sketch of what you intended for a method of dropping the ceiling at the pipe area, and I'll let you know whether it'll work. Your earlier questions - Insulation – As far as the amount of insulation in the cavities - from my findings here there should be enough so it is lightly compressed but not so stuffed to make it couple the other side. Should the insulation be flush with the studs, can it extend beyond the studs and if so by how much? I used R38 for the 2x10 (ceiling) and R19 for the 2x6 walls. For 2x6 walls, up to about 1" of compression is fine for standard fiberglass building insulation; NOT for any of the higher compressed stuff such as rockwool, semi-rigid fiberglass, etc. Also how important is that when handling / applying the insulation that you don’t compress it, bend it e.g. be “gentle” so to speak? The reason I ask is I had a friend help installing and he was whipping the stuff around like a rag doll. Weird question I know, but he was like “don’t worry about it, it’ll be fine” Doing that will release more fibers into the air and make it even more necessary to wear masks and vacuum more often, but won't hurt the insulation in any measurable way (unless he's so vicious he destroys the batts :? Screws – I think I purchased 1in for the first layer and 1 5/8in for second layer (both fine threads). Is this correct? I used the coarse threads for hanging the channels and rock in other rooms etc, but thought the fine thread would be better for screwing the rock to the channels? Coarse threads are for attaching to wood, fine threads for attaching to either light steel studs OR Resilient Channel. Going into wood, you want at least twice as long screws as the gypsum you're fastening. Into steel, it's useless to have more than enough screw length to engage all the steel thickness with screw threads so 1/2" extra is fine. Just make sure you don't put any screws into RC where a framing member is behind the RC, or you'll hurt isolation a LOT. Caulking - I only have one adjoining or shared wall that has rock on the other side of my room (the others are exterior walls and the ceiling). I forgot to caulk the rock seams (from the backside) and where the rock meets the studs. Should I take everything off and do this? NOt necessary; all you need is a hermetic seal SOMEWHERE between the two areas. See this thread for some detail - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 3&start=15 Rock orientation - is it necessary when putting on the second layer of rock to orientate the seam opposite from the first layer e.g. first layer seam goes horizontal the second layer seam goes vertical? I plan on leaving .125in gap at all of the joints and caulking the seams with acoustic sealant. Walls - for 2-layer walls, first layer goes vertical. Second layer goes horizontal. Placing first layer vertical improves strength, placing second layer horizontal improves looks (easier to get smoother, flatter surface) - between sheets seams can be mudded and taped instead of caulk. Perimeter should be done per the above link. Orientation of RC’s – does it matter if some of the channels switch “orientation” on a given wall, see pic? Also, some of the channels seem to be close to the stud (the short leg). When the rock goes on will it be pulled away, sort of center itself? Should I give some of the channels a tug RC should be installed on walls with the short leg DOWN and fastened to studs. Only exception to this is if you don't have room to fasten the BOTTOM RC, it can be done upside down. Leave about 1" gap from end of RC to adjoining wall, no need for fasteners between rock and RC closer than 2-3" from adjoining wall. Do a "Z" joint at corners, finish with flexible plastic inside corner, light mud/tape. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20003 Door - I purchased a solid (wood) core interior door (haven’t installed anything). I’m thinking of exchanging it for an exterior metal solid core foam door instead? Interior doors are typically 1-3/8" inch thick; with perfect seals, about STC 29. Exterior doors are 1-3/4" thick, solid wood would be about STC 30. IF the metal door you're looking at has better specs, fine; but you'd get more by using TWO doors separated by a couple feet of air space (vestibule) if you have the space. Even separate wall frames and separate doors separated by a few inches will beat ANY single door costing less than $5k. - SEALS are the weak point. It looks like for the closet, I will only put up one layer of rock because of space. Bad planning on my part. Still undecided though. ?? - Did I miss a floor plan? For the oak trim (baseboards and casements around windows and doors) should these be attached to the channels as well? I was thinking of installing short scraps of channels to the window + door framing for the trim to attach to? They can attach to the channels or to solid structure, but not BOTH. Heavy-based moldings could conceivably attach thru their base to solid structure (floor) leaving a small air space for zero hard contact, but it's usually easier to attach to the floated wall (leaving a small gap to the floor or ceiling) HTH... Steve
knightfly, great, thanks for the help and the links were a big help as well. As “simple” as many of the techniques and processes are for many people here, until you actually get your hands into this, it’s much more complicated than one would expect (just as many things are the first time). Even in my fairly straightforward situation, there are many obstacles to overcome. I guess my point here is a lot of this is still confusing until you actually go through the process. Even with the wealth of info and specific details made available here I really appreciate the time people take to answer what I’m sure are redundant questions :) As far as the pipes go, I don’t think I’m going to drop the ceiling for a number of reasons that I won’t go into. However, I will either build another “box” (soffet) with channels OR stop the first layer of rock just short of the pipes, insulate and caulk everywhere in this area and have the second layer of rock cover the opening. I’m sure that’s not the recommended process anyone here would advise, but these are my options. Anything you care add to these "method" Redundant question about caulking – You did answer this (“between sheets seams can be mudded”) but I left 1/8” – 1/4” gaps (they’re not tight) on the seams where two sheets of rock meet thinking I would caulk those (the ? area in pic). Should I caulk and then mud/tape these areas or can I just mud/tape/sand (basically is a gap I left too much and therefore not the way to do it)? Additional question: Also, when all said and done, is it correct to say that you are not suppose to tape/mud any of the perimeters (the red area/caulk in pic) even when finishing? How does this look aesthetically as opposed to mudded joint? knightfly wrote:
Interior doors are typically 1-3/8" inch thick; with perfect seals, about STC 29. Exterior doors are 1-3/4" thick, solid wood would be about STC 30. IF the metal door you're looking at has better specs, fine; but you'd get more by using TWO doors separated by a couple feet of air space (vestibule) if you have the space. Even separate wall frames and separate doors separated by a few inches will beat ANY single door costing less than $5k. - SEALS are the weak point
I should have been more specific – I purchased a solid six panel door and was thinking that a solid core (wood/foam) exterior metal door would be better for several reasons. One, the exterior type door’s frame is wider and would fit better due to the width (e.g. 2x6 const. and multi layers of rock) as well as it has much better sealing than an interior type => An interior door seals are made up of basically moldings, Yes? Which one would you recommend Thanks again, Steve
Image not preserved: wall caulk.jpg
foggie wrote:
I don’t think I’m going to drop the ceiling for a number of reasons that I won’t go into. However, I will either build another “box” (soffet) with channels OR stop the first layer of rock just short of the pipes, insulate and caulk everywhere in this area and have the second layer of rock cover the opening. I’m sure that’s not the recommended process anyone here would advise, but these are my options. Anything you care add to these "method"
Steve, you'll have to elaborate on your "number of reasons" because I'm at a loss to understand the rationale behind your hesitation to do this area correctly. If you eliminate a big chunk of drywall, you are in essence creating a large hole in your isolation. Do not make the mistake of thinking that eliminating 4% of your first layer of drywall will affect your isolation by the same percentage -- the cost in terms of iso is far greater. If you don't believe me, ask anyone who didn't use good door seals. :shock:
Keiths' right about his concern - however there may be a way to work around this, I'll see if I can do a sketch - Your other questions - you're right, things are only simple AFTER you've made all the mistakes :? This is why I rarely complain to people about redundant questions. They're not redundant if you're not sure what to do, and I doubt I'll ever have enough time to organize things here well enough so I don't need to repeat myself :cry: If you've left gaps between sheets the only deviation you'll need to do from standard mud/tape/sand operations is to use a bit more mud BEFORE the tape goes on - normal mud/tape operation is to put some mud on the joint, smooth it with the drywall knife, then dampen the tape and smooth it on OVER the mud, then a bit more mud and another smooth job. End result needs to be a level joint, or possibly a SLIGHT bulge so sanding afterward makes everything LEVEL and SMOOTH. By pressing mud INTO your gaps FIRST, you'll regain the mass in those gaps. Offsetting joints and changing orientation of sheets from layer to layer ensures that there aren't two joints in the same area to weaken the isolation. Taping and mudding when done - no problem. For inside corners, use some of the newer, thin plastic flex corner and do as light a mud in the actual corner as possible (press harder on the knife where it's smoothing the mud in the actual corner) Floor and ceiling moldings need to be floated off ONE of the adjoining surfaces - one way is to screw molding to the bottom RC on an RC type wall, keeping the molding about 3/16" away from the floor. For double-framed walls this isn't necessary. Door - definitely trade the paneled door for a thicker, solid slab. Exterior doors generally have better seals, but depending on yours you may still need a separate seal kit intended for better sound isolation. http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/prod ... l_kits.asp Here's one plan for the ceiling -
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Sharward:
Steve, you'll have to elaborate on your "number of reasons" because I'm at a loss to understand the rationale behind your hesitation to do this area correctly. If you eliminate a big chunk of drywall, you are in essence creating a large hole in your isolation. Do not make the mistake of thinking that eliminating 4% of your first layer of drywall will affect your isolation by the same percentage -- the cost in terms of iso is far greater. If you don't believe me, ask anyone who didn't use good door seals.
You're right and I NEED to this right. Time, stress and $$ are taking a toll. Not necessarily this room but the entire basement project. So I need to step back and figure this out correctly. Thanks for the kick in the rear! :) However, I got somewhat lucky last night in that I was able to "shim" the pipes flush to the joists (it took some doing) and the backside of the rock won’t touch. BUT, I am going to take knighfly’s advice by using the “latch cover” method as he described. Thanks, Steve
knightfly
Keiths' right about his concern - however there may be a way to work around this, I'll see if I can do a sketch -
This is great (thanks for the terrific sketch). It will use method today and I’ll get some pics up tonight hopefully.
Your other questions - you're right, things are only simple AFTER you've made all the mistakes This is why I rarely complain to people about redundant questions. They're not redundant if you're not sure what to do, and I doubt I'll ever have enough time to organize things here well enough so I don't need to repeat myself
I’m really thankful to you and the others for taking your personal time to assist me. I’m sure you get thanks all the time (at least I hope you do). This really is a remarkable “place” and I don’t know how you guys do it. But it certainly shows your character as a person and again, thank you very much! I think everything else makes sense (mudding, doors). I'm sure I'll run into some situation where it gets confusing though :? Well, back down into the basement I go and I'll update tonight. Thanks again! Steve
No problem at all, foggie-Steve.. :) I'm just "paying it forward" so to speak (so to type? :lol:). Butt-kickings are only fun when they work, and I'm glad it did in this case! 8) Nice workaround, knightfly-Steve. Why the heck didn't I think of that? :? Oh yeah, that's right -- I'm the "mere mortal" here. :D --Keith :mrgreen:
Thing are coming together :) However, I’m still a bit, ahem, foggie (no pun intended) :) understanding the final mudding process. Specifically the corners. Knightfly explained the process previously and to use the plastic corner bead stuff etc. Questions: - Generally, what should the max gap distance be in the corners (where the rock meets)? - Is the use of the plastic corner bead a must? - In one of the corners (where two adjacent walls meet) I have a gap of about .5in . This would appear to be pretty large I know? Any suggestions here. Should I fill it with caulk and then put the corner bead in, tape / mud? Just to clarify, when all is said and done, I will have the corners mudded with the use of the plastic corner bead but the perimeter’s (floor and ceiling) will have a caulk “seam”? Which means (for aesthetics) I will need to put “standard” baseboard trim on the floor (making sure to mount into the RC) and for the ceiling use a corner round or whatever ceiling molding desired to cover up the caulk? I’m confused, doesn’t the mudding of the corners “tie” everything together (couple)? Why not mud the perimeters as well? (just wanting to understand the acoustical "physics" here) Thanks! Steve
Any thoughts on my questions above? Thanks, Steve
Update for anyone interested. I’m pretty much done :) As to my previous questions, I caulked the heck out of every nook and cranny again as there was some separation in the gaps (settling) and then mudded. I textured the ceiling and have to put one more coat of paint on. Things I have left are to apply the baseboard trim and get some oak trim for the window (sill, sides, top etc). I’m debating whether or not to even put trim (quarter round) for the ceiling (where ceiling meets wall). Aesthetically it won’t look the greatest but I textured these corners pretty good and after I put the second coat of paint on (I’ll cut the paint in as close as possible) it’s fairly hard to tell there is a gap. Also I still have to design an access panel for the humidistat (see page one for ref). Basically a “laundry shoot” type of door/size. I currently have a 6inch x 6inch square cut out in the rock where this door will be. This was one of the variables I had to deal with and it really bites as far as more potential for transmission loss. Obviously I’ll try and make this as sound and sealed as possible. I haven’t quite figured out the design for this yet. Any thoughts are welcome :) For the door I ended up special ordering an exterior solid core flush oak door mounted in a 2x6 exterior door frame. This sucker is HEAVY :) It cost about $300. For my situation I think it will be better than the interior six panel or flush type that I initially ordered and even the exterior metal type I was considering. It should be delivered later this week. After the door gets installed/stained, the carpet will be ordered. Probably a tight nit berber with the best pad available. Other than that I was going to make a “modular” plug for the window (4’x4’). Something that I can mount or put in and out when the room is being used/not being used. I’ll try and get some pics up :) Steve