Near Field Height

Where should the near fiell monitor most idealy sit? The Reveal notes say ear level should be right between the tweeter and woofer, Is this good advice? Should Dyanaudios be set the same? All those years monitors sat on top of the console often woofer above ear level (NEVE) and nice mixes happened. Should I measure an old neve and put them at that height?

That advice is fine as far as it goes; there's more to it though (big surprise) - depending on your ceiling height that position might cause problems by placiing the woofer in a null, making the speakers work really hard and STILL not put out the bass they were designed for. If the height choice were to place the woofer in a PEAK relative to the vertical modes of the room, then you would have EXCESS bass in the room at that modal frequency, which means uneven response and bad mix choices down the road. There is also the problem of early reflections off desk surfaces, console, etc, which can be worse if the speakers sit on the bridge - this is a main reason for separate stands BEHIND the bridge. Also, if speakers are resting (without decoupling) directly on a surface that can conduct sound structurally, there is the possibility that lower frequencies can travel through this material FASTER than through air (wood, in some axes of travel, can conduct sound 12-15 TIMES as fast as air) so the speakers need to be decoupled from structure. Otherwise, your desk might be sending you the LF information sooner than your speakers, and phase cancellation can result. For a more involved look, you might check out this thread http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=18059 Places to AVOID putting your speakers (specifically the woofers) - half of ANY dimension of the room, 1/3 of any dimension, 1/4, 2/3, etc - This also applies to your head, BTW - although for stereo you DO need to be centered left-to-right. You do NOT want your head within 5-6 inches of centered between floor and ceiling, same as your speakers. STandard 8 foot ceilings make this an important thing to remember; it's 'way too easy to sit so your head is equidistant from floor and ceiling, guaranteeing that you will be in nulls for first and third harmonics, and the peak for the second harmonic. See the Harmon calculator in the above link for more on that... STeve

All good advice, I was thining of rubber stoppers under the speaker stand tops then my mopads. What is a good fraction to sit the woofers at if not 1/2, 1.3 or 1/4? is say 5/8ths from floor ok? I'll remeasure my room hight tomorrow. me thinx it is in the 8" range.

Rubber stoppers? Is this to adjust the height? If so, you'd be better off with something more solid, and just use the MOpads for decoupling. Otherwise, you may get your speakers rocking which can cause phasing between woof and tweet to shift due to varying distance from the listener. Heightwise, 42-46% of the distance from floor to ceiling is good; depending on your ceiling height, this can be measured either from the floor OR from the ceiling... Steve

Now would this 42-46 % be to the center of the woofer or bottom or bottom of speaker? The rubber pads I am talking about are super hard dampers fpr HVAC use. They wont rock in that way. I was thinking of sandwiching those between a first self and then a primary shelf that the monitrs rest on secured by may be an anchor bolt in the middle of the shelf, Could be over kill since I have the MoPads though.

That's to the center of the woofer; the bottom of the box is supposedly stiff enough NOT to be the main radiator of sound so wouldn't matter nearly as much. I would not set up a mass-air-mass double shelf for speakers just on the outside chance that its resonance could interfere with normal speaker/room dynamics. The mopads will decouple so you don't get induced sound thru structure before the airborne sound reaches you, and that's all that's necessary... Steve

Well, using just MoPads will save some work for sure! I have on last 703 panel (2x4) am intend to hang over mix postion. Should I suspend it with the width ways going speaker to speaker or longways down the middle to allow more fornt and back movement from my chair? My guess is the former to cover the width of the speaker spread. I saw a post about some 703 alternatives, I'd like to add some other things to even out the absorption. I have 3 panels I made a while back with regular owenes corning r15 or something covered in batting and then burlap. I recently saw a 2x4 sheets of a styro insulation type panel (white) would this stuff do to fill in spots I find with the mirror test? Now I have panels of 70s (4" thick in corners) and the some panels on the walls at 1") Also hsould I keep the panels up above knee hieght? is there any thing helpfull by having any on the floor, say 2 feet tall and 4feet long or am I wasting those panels? Thank you agian

Wow, sorry about the incoherent English. I was in too much of a hurry. I mean, I had a last 703 board after making my panels that I would like to hang over head.

Heightwise, 42-46% of the distance from floor to ceiling is good; depending on your ceiling height, this can be measured either from the floor OR from the ceiling... Steve[/quote] I did this, however it seems very low. at 43.7" (46% of 95") does this seem right ot you?

Yeah, unfortunately an 8 foot ceiling tends to put you and your speakers right at the 50% mark, which is the LAST place (acoustically) you'd want to be. To get around this, you either have to play "low rider" or sit higher than seems natural. On the panels - I'm not sure only one 2x4 foot panel will be enough for a "cloud" you need enough so that it covers any areas close to reflection points from either speaker. I wouldn't waste panels on areas near floor or ceiling, except at early reflection points (or straddling wall-ceiling corners)... Steve

Good words. Could I go 43-46% height of ceiling with the same good results? And to pick your brain even further, should I use absorption on the wall behind the speakers and comp monitors? Or shall I just worry about the mirror test? I seem to find conflicting opinons on this. You've been a big help, thank you.

Sure, that height would be fine; and I'm not sure it's even possible to get TOO much absorption on the front wall when using free-standing speakers; the more absorption, the smoother the response. In a smaller room (less than about 10-12 feet from your head to the rear wall) the same applies to that rear wall. Philip Newell uses rear traps that are several FEET deep, in varying densities/absorptions/stiffnesses when building his "non-environment" rooms... Steve

All great stuff. SHould I vary the materials on the wall behind the speakers? next up, re work the recording rooms! Thanks again.

Oh one last question. (ya right) Is it ok to take the rug up. The ceiling is untreated. I have concerns about marking the plaster ceiling up with holes for hanging panels. So would hard wood and hard ceiling be a problem as I have long assumed? right now the rug is wall to wall with rug pad under. the cluster over mix positon is still in the plans, but I'll never be able to treat the whole ceiling.

For front walls (behind your speakers) I wouldn't vary materials so much as just get enough absorption to treat SBIR problems; I'd use a minimum of 4" material, 3PCF preferably, and place it at least 4" away from the wall - more wouldn't hurt, less won't usually be enough to do the job. Rugs don't have nearly as wide an absorption range, so tend to make the room sound dry and "boxy" - but if you remove it, you now have two hard surfaces facing each other; more flutter echo in ranges that weren't a problem before. If you can build a "cloud" for over the mix area that's at least 4' x 6', maybe larger, then the rest of the room won't cause problems as long as you have the corners absorbed, plus the treatments we've already discussed. But I don't think I'd take out the carpet until the cloud is ready to go up, and you may want to keep carpeting in parts of the room AWAY from the mix area - since all rooms respond somewhat differently, having the option of carpet/no carpet makes the most sense so you can "dial it in" based on listening and ETF tests later... Steve

All great tips again, I plan a 6x6 cloud over mix postion. Should I also keep my ears away from 50% of the floor to ceiling? I have done a search on SBIR and found nothing could you define that and 3pcf? Sorry if you have gone over this a thousand times before. The imaging already sounds better in my room.

Seems like a lot of your questions should have been answered by the link I posted; have you read that yet? Steve

I skimmed it once, I better read it thoroughly

knightfly wrote:

That advice is fine as far as it goes; there's more to it though (big surprise) - depending on your ceiling height that position might cause problems by placiing the woofer in a null, making the speakers work really hard and STILL not put out the bass they were designed for.

:D wow interesting way of putting it.

This is kindof an old topic, but i just read through it... and i was thinking: would it be helpful in a room with approx. 8ft. ceilings to place the speakers higher and angle them down? is this an adequate way to counter-act this problem?

That can work; but it can also introduce OTHER problems, depending on the way you sit, tilt your head, etc - first, neither your ears nor your speakers should be in any peaks or nulls if possible; the only exception to this is from side to side, because if you do NOT sit centered sideways in a symmetrical room you get less than optimal stereo imaging. This makes it even MORE important to NOT sit in any UN-necessary nulls/peaks, specifically those caused by height or room length. So we need to sit so our ears aren't at even multiples of height, nor are they at even multiples of length, and the same goes for speakers; PLUS, the speakers shouldn't be in any SIDEWAYS nulls/peaks EITHER. So, it seems as if we could place the speakers high (above room center) and sit low (ears BELOW room center), and fix EVERYTHING, right?? Unfortunately, another problem(s) arises - one, this changes geometry of the sound path and MAY (or may not) cause early reflections off desk, mixer, etc - these will mainly be mid to high frequency problems, causing comb filtering at the mix position. This can be solved with a little geometry - do a side view of your room, and trace reflections from tweeters to any hard surfaces (desk, console) and see if they get close to where your ears will be; if so, speakers need to move forward or back. (this assumes they are already at correct height) - This is also ONE of the reasons it's better to place nearfields on STANDS; it puts them further away, and changes geometry so that (usually) first reflections are redirected BEHIND us. ANOTHER reason the "high/low" placement thing may cause problems - the human Pinna (the part of the ear you see) is shaped that way for a reason; besides collecting sound, it also ATTENUATES off-axis higher frequencies - thought by some to be a hold-over from the "fight or flight" response that's kept humans alive when bigger, meaner things were after them. The result of this for music mixing - if your speakers are high and your ears are low, unless you LOOK UP at your speakers while mixing you'll hear less treble. This can cause you to overcompensate, making a tinny sounding mix. If there's no way around having to do this, it helps to be aware of the possible problems; if you think there's not enough "sizzle" in your mix, sit back and look up at your speakers before you reach for that EQ... Steve