CONSTRUCTION DETAILS. PLEASE HELP

hi.. i put stingers in the dead room floor.. and the boards are a lot stiffer.. but still the whole thing is mooving.. (probably because it is on the neoprene pucks) it is like if i put it on springs :) ..this floaring floor is only 10 m2.. so me junmping moves it.. easier then the big one :) ..one other thing.. my pucks that are now 5 cm2 in contact with the joist.. compres about 5-10% somewhere between 7-10 kg.... it was hard to get that measurment.. because 5-10% is somewhere between 1-2 mm.. and my eye is not so precise.. :) i used a weight lifting (fittnes) 10kg thing an put it on top.. it went don just a little... almost nothing.. what durometer is that?.. do other people use more stiffer neoprene.. or is that normal.. and how are the prices for neoprene pucks at your place.. 1m2 of this 20 mm neoprene costs here almost 100$ one other thing.. the my 3.75pcf wool is transmiting some of the structural born noise.... a small amount.. i put the wool block on the wood stud.. and was hiting it with a small joist.. my brother was on the other side listening with his ear on the wooden stud.. and he could hear the beating (it was clearly there) is that normal? it is very stiff.. but when you jump on it it gets a little bit soffter and i have a big problem also.. this acoustic caulk is ringing in my ears as well.. we don't have this in europe (non english speaking part) we have acrylic sealant, silicon sealant, rubber sealant, i got some sealant for separating walls.. can you give me some specs on that.. my sealant: when you leave it outside.. it gets stiff.. not totaly.. like gypsum.. but stiff to some extent.. that is bad? or? can you give me an idiot's guidebook.. with plain words.. how does the acoustic sealant feel in the hands and when you use it .. and when it dries.. so i can know if i am close to the real thing.. one one other thing.. i bought the ECM 8000! :) and conected it and measured my sleeping room :) hehe here is some questions i could't find the answers for in the ETF tutorial.. i used my genelec 1029 as the loudspeaker.. and my behringer UB802 as preamp and my RME multiface as the soundcard.. (just so you know) here the questions: where do i place the speaker in the room and where the mic? if my speakers are both on the table.. do i first measure the one.. and then the other? does changing the positions (mic & speaker) in the room make any major difference?.. where do i find the *.cal file for the ECM 8000? where can i find tutorials on how to read the graphs and how to implement them in the acoustic treatment? i hope you can answer soon :-) i am starting to work in 8 hours from now :) i am putting the double layer of gypsum on the the ceeling joists :) and waiting in the meanwhile for you to answer the post about the floor :) last question.. i am using gypsum to close the gaps between the gypsum boards.. and use only caulk where the existing wall and the gypsum meet.. is that ok?

hi, here is one more sealent.. polyurethane.. this is very elastic.. i can use that one.. ..the key is that the sealant doesen't crack or? here are the pics.. i dismanteled the floor.. :) dismanteled.. and this is how i did the dead room.. it is a lot stronger.. :) and this is the chipboard.. i will use it again and now i am going to the store and will buy 5/8" particle board.. for 5dollars per sq meters.. it will be my first layer.. and the second will be the 3/4" chipboard i have.. will that be ok?? Petar in the attach is the datasheet for the sealant i can get here.. or something similar. .:)

Sorry for the delay Petar, I'm off to work in about 5 minutes; just quickly, good caulk should NEVER completely harden, it needs to stay flexible so it won't crack. Butyl, silicone, not sure about polyurethane. It should feel kind of like a thick rubber band when it's "dry", but should NOT be brittle, EVER. Floor - 5/8 particle under 3/4 chipboard will be OK, just make sure you alternate the layout for minimal gaps, and seal everything as you go. Rockwool - if it's transmitting, it's too compressed. Either make your framing deeper or use less rockwool; then maybe the strips of softer insulation as I mentioned before; all you want is SLIGHT pressure on the panels, so they don't RING. Outa time for now, please organize your questions in ONE new post, one paragraph per question, and I'll try to catch you up in the morning when I get home... Steve

FIRST THE PROGRES: Doesen't it look nice?  One more pic. Of the CR. The snake hoses  And the live room being built.. The dead room QUESTIONS: 1.Neoprene puck placement calculation for the CR I have stingerd all the joists.. i hope 60cm to 100cm stinger placement is enough.. then i estimated the weight: (my control room is 27 sq meters) Board (osb and particle) weight. Total is 540 kg Joists are 64 meters. Total 150 kg Stingers are 23 meters. Total 46 kg I put the total wieight 800 kg. My puck holds 10 kg. That means 80 pucks From that my puck placement should be 64/80 about 80 cm.. but because of the wall and equipment and intangible weight ... (and fear) i put puck placement on 60 cm... around the edge (where the wall comes on top), under the soffit wall, under the equipment, under the sofa.. i put 30 cm puck placement.. so i have something over 140 pucks.. that means 1400 kg.. of weight. My wall weighs average about 80 kg per linear meter.. and i have 4 meters on the sides and front and back 3 meters each.... that means 14 meters of wall... so that is aqdditional 1120 kg Should i put even more pucks on the edges?... now it is 30 cm centers.. should i put 15 cm centers on the edge joists (where the walls come)? here is how it look like now you can see the black pucks 2. ETF and measuring the room  Have you done that? Can you give me some practical advice? i bought the ECM 8000! and conected it and measured my sleeping room hehe here is some questions i could't find the answers for in the ETF tutorial.. i used my genelec 1029 as the loudspeaker.. and my behringer UB802 as preamp and my RME multiface as the soundcard.. (just so you know) here the questions: where do i place the speaker in the room and where the mic? if my speakers are both on the table.. do i first measure the one.. and then the other? does changing the positions (mic & speaker) in the room make any major difference?.. where do i find the *.cal file for the ECM 8000? Is there a program that i can use for measuring the dB intensity.. for example ma band plays and i want to measure how loud they are.. is there a software for that? I would use it for STC measuring of my walls.. where can i find tutorials on how to read the graphs and how to implement them in the acoustic treatment? 3. Electricity in the CR.. here is where my snakes will come togeather :-) For now i have 3 phases all around. One for light, one for heating and other electrical gadgets, one one for audio equipement. For the electricity and light is no problem.. i ask for the audio part.. In the control room.. i have.. AUDIO PHASE CABLE GOING: Under the mixing desk Under effects table To the soffit wall AUDIO snakes AND cables going from desk to: Effects rack Live room Soffit wall Dead room DID I MISS SOMETHING? GUESTION SUMMARY: 1.Neoprene puck placement calculation for the CR 2. ETF and measuring the room  3. Electricity in the CR.. once again.. thank you very much for your time.. and everthing.. i couldn't do it right without you :) Petar

Puck placement; be VERY careful NOT to go too close together, calculate until you are SURE you're at LEAST 10% deflection. I've got to leave for work again, but will tackle the others tomorrow night, as well as catch up on all the other members' questions. I would NOT just arbitrarily double the # of pucks, more on this tomorrow, sorry... Steve

why wires must be under the floating floor? If there is any problem is very dificult to repair. Behind the walls is not a good way??

all my wires will come behind the wall.. but at some point electricity has to come under the mxing desk.. and other places.. so i have those all under the floating floor.. i put the audio cables in a big pvc pipe.. so i can always pull them out if a problem occurs.. electricity is in smaller pipes.. but also in pipes.. and i have a separate big pige pipe extra from the main fuse to the mixing desk just in case :) ..for instance all the electricity cables in the live room go across the ceeling.. and end up down on the wall :) and the snake goes on the floor.. you couldn't separate it more :) hehe

NEED THIS ANSWERED SOON! :) just confirm if my calculation is correct :) 1.Neoprene puck placement calculation for the CR I have stingerd all the joists.. i hope 60cm to 100cm stinger placement is enough.. then i estimated the weight: (my control room is 27 sq meters) Board (osb and particle) weight. Total is 540 kg Joists are 64 meters. Total 150 kg Stingers are 23 meters. Total 46 kg I put the total wieight 800 kg. My puck holds 10 kg. That means 80 pucks From that my puck placement should be 64/80 about 80 cm.. but because of the wall and equipment and intangible weight ... (and fear) i put puck placement on 60 cm... around the edge (where the wall comes on top), under the soffit wall, under the equipment, under the sofa.. i put 30 cm puck placement.. so i have something over 140 pucks.. that means 1400 kg.. of weight. My wall weighs average about 80 kg per linear meter.. and i have 4 meters on the sides and front and back 3 meters each.... that means 14 meters of wall... so that is aqdditional 1120 kg Should i put even more pucks on the edges?... now it is 30 cm centers.. should i put 15 cm centers on the edge joists (where the walls come)? here is how it look like now you can see the black pucks

Lookin' good. :D You'll be much happier you put the extra supports (stringers) between the joists. When you're calculating the weights, figure out what your "dead" weight is (weight that is part of the structure; eg: walls, floor, console, racks, anything that doesn't move). And you can calculate your "live" weight; eg: people, racks that move around, etc.

i now all the weight.. but what then.. my weight is different in different areas of the room.. for instance.. the edges of the floor will carry the walls and the middle of the room will have just two boards on top.. how should i place the pucks. evenly.. or according to the weight that comes over the floor..?

This is a quote from Steve from my thread:

Allow for a few extra pucks under areas where heavy things will be - if you're using a serious console, put a few extras under where the legs will sit - same in areas where a piano will be. Allow for twice as many pucks around the perimeter and under any other walls. Don't add extra pucks, steal them from less rigorous areas and re-adjust the spacing.

If you still have questions, read the entire section here: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... 39&start=3

thank you :) one more thing.. then.. you calculated the whole dead weight (walls included) and out of that you made the puck placement distance.. for the floor.. or did you calculate for the edges (where the walls come) differently? Petar

Unfortunately, w/ mine I did things differently. Part of that was due to the way I had to assemble the floor sections, plus leveling. According to Steve, my floor could probably withstand a 3" concrete slab on top of my floor, which means I currently have too many supports, but then again, I didn't have a way around it because of the way it was framed in sections, then tied together, and I had to support each section. So basically, where ever I put a support to level the floor, I had to put a puck. I did put more in area's that were going to support more weight; eg: walls, soffits, console, equipment racks, and spread out in other areas. I did a rough calculation last week, and I'm looking at about 10-12 thousand pounds on my floor.

what did steve say.. is it better to much or to little..? and how big of a surface is your puck and how much weight it can carry (10% deflection) or? mine is 5 cm2 or 2.5 in2 and can carry 20 pounds.. (with 10% deflection) right about now i have 130 pucks under the floor.. so it means 2600 punds.. so should i just add up under the edges.. and off we go :) one more thing it was hard to test a 2mm deflection.. :) my puck is 20 mm thick.. so 2 mm is 10% did you put 20% or 5% ? Petar

OK, Petar, let's see what we can figure out here - First, it sounds to me like your pucks are very SOFT, if it only takes 20 lbs to compress them by 10% - if that's for each PUCK, and not for each SQUARE INCH, then you may need a LOT more pucks. I need from you, all in one post - Total calculated weight of just the floor Total calculated weight of a typical wall, and how LONG that wall is If ceiling will rest on walls, total weight of the ceiling AND the total length of ONLY the surface of the ceiling that will rest its weight on walls Weights of any HEAVY objects that will stay in same place in the room Do all these in kG and meters, so any error in conversion is mine not yours. Easiest way to organize this info is to just copy and paste the bold part into your post, then answer in between NOT in bold type... Steve

first to say.. my hole puck can take only 10kg.. but it settles just a little.. almost nothing, 2 mm.. (that is 10%) maybe it should just a little bit more :) Total calculated weight of just the floor floor is total (joists and boards) on the 27m2 i have in the CR 727 kg total joist lenght in the floor is 64 meters Total calculated weight of a typical wall, and how LONG that wall is one meter of wall is about 80-100 kg.. the lenghts are like in the flowing pic, note: we are doing the CR that means wall lenght (heavy walls) will be 14,4 meters.. and the two back walls (the 2,7m walls) will be absorbers.. so only cloth, bastrapps If ceiling will rest on walls, total weight of the ceiling AND the total length of ONLY the surface of the ceiling that will rest its weight on walls ceeling is NOWHERE resting on walls (so not on floors).. so 0 kg is resting on walls or floor :) Weights of any HEAVY objects that will stay in same place in the room there will be a soffa in the back (50 kg) the mixing desk in the midle and equipment.. i think most 60 kg extra and the soffit wall in the front.. i don't know how much it ussualy weighs.. :) now it is your turn :) you can se how i placed the pucks already.. in the pics above.. i have them now about 140 already :) 60 cm centers.. and double under the soffa, the soffit wall, the equipment area and the edges.. :)

Under those conditions, it looks to me like you need 1 puck per meter of joist, everywhere but the perimeter; where those 100 kG/meter walls go, you will need 10 pucks per meter, or nearly continuous support. Man, that stuff must be a LOT softer than 60 duro... Steve

something like that.. :) .. i have now 60 cm spacing.. overal.., double (30 cm) under the equipment and edges.. so i will just ad one more round arround the edges :) so the edges will have 15 cm spacing :) my joist are very connected with eachother with the stingers and all.. so the force of the walls i think is to some extend transmited to all the pucks.. ..the problem is i preety much very hard glued the existing pucks.. so if i try to tear them apart.. it will not be good

I am Back! ANd i finished a lot in the studio! Got the room in a room concept after a year of overthinkig :) hehe I just have only two yes or no questions for knightfly.. and some pictures to post :) Question One. In a double wall construction.. if my rockwool touches.. (now only thing connecting the walls) will it decrease the isolation? Here the pic to explain.. the woll up in the picture is tottaly separated.. and the wool in the middle is connected... now i did this double wall that has no hard conection.. (the one on the picture) but when i bang my hand on the one side.. my fiance can feel the vibrations on the other side (if she puts her hand on the other wall).. of course.. significantly less.. about 50% maybe.. but i thought it would be 95% or so.. since i did a total separation :) of course there is only one layer gypsum.. and it is half built.. :) but i am just checking the vibration control.. is that normal (yes or no :) ) Question Two This cavity between floated floor should be filled with woll or left empty? You see that the wool from the wall only reaches to the floated floor top :) Queston Three i went trough the SAE manual again.. and there is a mention of using 16mm gypsum board and 12 mm glued on top (2 layers) am i still ok if i use 2 layers of 16 mm screwed to the metal studs? Queston Four And this one is a longer one.. CLOTH! what to put on the ceeling so the woll particles dont fall down when the bass shakes the whole construction? what material, any links or info on that? that is all! and here some more progress pics.. ! Stiched Stuff! how my doors look like... tottaly air sealed.. and totally heavy!! i can bearly lift the door alone.. and you need 2 people to cary them Sorry that they are wider than 700px.. it makes no use to make them smaller then this.. ...i can make them in a zip file to download if necessary.. just scroll to get the full view of the rooms

• A pan view of the control room progress
• A progress of the live room!

In a double wall construction.. if my rockwool touches.. (now only thing connecting the walls) will it decrease the isolation? It shouldn't, unless the rockwool is compressed quite a bit. IS this by chance the wall you had your inner rafters bearing on top of? This cavity between floated floor should be filled with woll or left empty? It should be filled. am i still ok if i use 2 layers of 16 mm screwed to the metal studs? Yes; recent wall tests show that two heavier layers work better for lower frequencies, which are the hardest to stop. Cloth; you can use light weight plastic (like the thin stuff used for painter's drop cloths) to cover the wool first, then whatever cloth you like the look of; test it with fire, and if it sustains flame you'll need to find something like this http://www.natfire.com/ or take a chance on dying by fire. The thin plastic will absorb a bit less high frequency so keeping the room a little brighter sounding, but not much; the main use is to contain the fibers from the insulation... Steve

i have a ton of that thin plastic.. very thin on a role.. but you can not blow trough it :) it is a material more like plastic for shoping bags.. but only thiner http://burdisco.com/pages/painterssupplies.htm or do you mean more like the the material that the Polypropylene Coveralls with zippered front are made of in the link? and on the slat resonator walls?.. do i need the plastic also.. or just the cloth?

IS this by chance the wall you had your inner rafters bearing on top of?

NO, i disasembeled the wall where the joists (rafters) connected and made two seperate.. walls with joist of each room resting on their own wall so now i have structuraly 3 totaly disconected rooms.. ..my father said.. if you do it DO IT RIGHT :) so i redid it all i really hope that it will be good :) Petar

the thin 1 or 2mil plastic is just fine. On the resonators the cloth is adequate.

and the cloth.. what kind of material should that be? polyester, cotton, anything else?? anything i shouldn´t use? Petar

I used plain ole cotton on my ceiling a asilk feel on the walls. been 2 years no isse. Ideally find a fire resistant brand (like guilford of main) that has been treated. I couldnt afford guilford so I used some dense cloth and some drapery cloth from the ods and ends section of the fabric store.

I ran into Spock on IM the other day and he sent me these pictures of his finished studio... I know how frustrating it is to see a thread come to a halt in mid-construction! Unfortunately, the images in the beginning of this thread are gone forever... I asked him what happened to them, and he wrote: "i dont have the seekersplanet.com domain anymore and all the pics are gone.. sorry." He also wrote: " NO dobut my studio wouldnt be as near as good without the Forum.. not as near..at all!!!" Although our Croatian friend moved more quickly than we would have recommended and made some "less than stellar" construction decisions along the way, many of which were no doubt motivated by a limited time window and free labor on a tight schedule, he seems quite happy with the results, and these photos are pretty darned inspirational. 8) --Keith :mrgreen: